Espers and counterintuitive learning speeds

[Karl_Bonner_1982]

One thing about FF6's Esper system that caught my attention early on was that the learning speeds of various spells from various Espers didn't always follow a logical pattern. For example, Shiva and Ifrit teach the level 2 attack spell at 5x, while Ramuh teaches it at only 2x (making Maduin's 3x a faster way to get Bolt 2!) Poison is taught at 5x (Ramuh) while the much stronger Bio is available from Shoat at a whopping 8x! Doom is taught at 2x but X-zone at 5x.

The worst learning speed faux pas, IMO, is with Phoenix teaching Fire 3 at 3x and Cure 3 at 2x. The Phoenix's Cure 3 almost completely defeats the purpose of Starlet, and it doesn't make sense that Fire 3 can be learned three times as quickly as Ice 3 and Bolt 3 via Tritoch. (This last illogicality bothered me enough so that ever since I was a teenager, I made it a point to equip Phoenix ONLY on characters who had already completely mastered both Starlet and Tritoch. )

Have you ever pondered why there are these kind of inconsistencies in spell learning speeds? And more importantly, are there any ROM patches that change the learning speeds so they conform more closely to rational expectations?

[theundeadhero]

I can't say I ever gave it much thought. It never bothered me.

[blackmage_nuke]

You get Ramuh earlier than Shiva and Ifrit so they probably upped Shiva and Ifrit abit to help you catch up. The same is said with Shoat. Really the first 4 espers (Ramuh, Kirin, Siren, Stray to my memory) are just there for you to grasp the concept of leveling up magic.
Further more the point of the esper system is that you can only equip one to a character at a time and therefore only learn a certain set of magic at a time, with Phoenix you learn cure3 and Fire3 faster than anyone else but at the same time Phoenix is alot harder to obtain and you cant learn Bolt3 or Ice3 from him meaning you have to grind some more. AND at the same time while you grind magic your level will be increasing and upping stats that are useless to the character being used at the time (Unless you train at fanatics tower) so you have to make sacrifices in that respect too.

[Wolf Kanno]

I think the developers assumed you would try mastering spells as soon as you get them. You have Ramuh very early on in comparison to Shiva, Ifrit, and Maduin. Really, if you just think about the order you acquire them, most of them seem consistent with chronology.

I do see the problem with Maduin but then again, you can learn the weaker spells from Ramuh, Shiva, and Ifrit then once you learn those you can switch over to Maduin and have less time to learn the level 2 spells than you would had you waited for Maduin. Phoenix, for all intents and purposes is one of the few Espers I feel the developers felt you would last attempt considering how nasty the Phoenix cave is and you need a lot of your party members to traverse the cave properly. So it doesn't really negate Starlet completely.

Not to mention you can have two party members learning the same spell and then switch over when they master the desired spells.

[Karl_Bonner_1982]

I'm beginning to think it has to do with the fact that Ramuh is acquired much earlier in the game and that early-game spells are supposed to be taught more slowly. The game makes you work hard and long to earn magical privileges this early.

Kirin is probably the best example. It teaches Cure at 5x and Cure 2 at only 1x. Compare that to the learning speeds of Starlet for the same two spells!

In order to be consistent with this trend, the game should have been designed so that Tritoch and Starlet are "supposed" to come well before Phoenix. That would mean no locks on the doors in Narshe, since you need Locke to open them and with Locke comes the Phoenix.

In order to avoid giving Fire 3 a special privilege, I would have added Ice 3 and Bolt 3 to two other late-game Espers at the 3x speed. Perhaps Alexander for Ice 3 and Odin/Raiden for Bolt 3?

[blackmage_nuke]

You dont need to open any locks in order to obtain Tritoch or Starlet. As was said you need a large party to finish the Phoenix Cave and its a very difficult cave, further more you get the clue to go to the Phoenix Cave inside owzers mansion (one of the paintings drops a note about a star shaped mountain)

Also I cant see Alexander teaching Ice3, theres no reason a game has to have a perfectly symetrical battle system.

I think after finding Cyan and Gau when all obvious clues have run out the natural path for someone to take would be to go to Narshe which is sort of a flagpole city, its possible they might be discouraged by all the locked doors but there is no reason they could not fight tritoch then and there.

[VeloZer0]

Thats funny, I always found the progression to be very natural. When I first played the game I got them all in the 'proper' order that would make each one an upgrade to the other I already had in my possession.

Subsequent play-throughts where I got one or the other first always felt like I was using my knowledge of the game to break the natural progression to get the items I wanted faster.

[Karl_Bonner_1982]

Well, the first time I played FF6's world of Ruin, the Phoenix cave was too tough for me so I went to Narshe first. But then I discovered that the official walkthroughs listed Phoenix before Narshe.

But the official strategy guide also had you tackling the Tower of Fanatics before going to Narshe! Imagine trying to fight all those beasts with only level 2 spells (except, perhaps, for Phoenix's Fire 3).

I agree that the magic system doesn't need to be perfectly symmetrical, but when Fire 3 is much easier to learn than Ice 3 or Bolt 3, something's not quite right. I noticed that there's a bias toward fire elementals in other areas, too, such as Siren's Fire 1, Sabin's Fire Dance and Crusader's Meltdown.

[Wolf Kanno]

Well Terra does have an affinity towards fire and Kefka does enjoy burning things.

[Flying Mullet]

If we're looking at the game from a purely fictional world standpoint and not from a gameplay/design point, I always assumed that no two Espers are created equal. Thus they can "teach" spells at different speeds.

[Edgar]

For a game mechanic that doesn't really affect your style of playing, I don't think such details should be worth a 2c about.

And I agree on what others said, ie you get Ramuh eariler etc.

[Karl_Bonner_1982]

Well I wonder if there are any hacks/patches/mods out there that alter either the spells taught by a particular Esper or the speed at which the Esper teaches a spell?

If Tritoch's spells were taught at 2x I'd have nothing to complain about. It's the fact that Fire 3 can be learned three times as fast as Ice 3 and Bolt 3 that I find to be lopsided.

[Wolf Kanno]

I don't see the big deal really. Unless you are playing a weird guide or power gaming chances are Phoenix will be the last esper you obtain with the possible exception of Ragnarok and Crusader. Thus making the extra growth only useful for getting secondary party members up to speed. Chances are a few members have already learned Fire 3 from Tritoch and god knows Terra should have naturally learned that spell by then.

Also, I'm not surprised a "flaming bird" can teach a fire spell faster than an Aztec god that's more associated with thunder. The elements given are usually associated with the deity the esper gains its name from with a few odd exceptions... Besides, Maduin is unique cause he teaches the basic level 2 elements all at once even though there are a few other espers that can teach them. Tritoch is unique cause its the only esper that teaches Ice 3 and Bolt 3. I don't see why Tritoch should be treated as an upgraded Maduin.

[NeoCracker]

Well I wonder if there are any hacks/patches/mods out there that alter either the spells taught by a particular Esper or the speed at which the Esper teaches a spell?

If Tritoch's spells were taught at 2x I'd have nothing to complain about. It's the fact that Fire 3 can be learned three times as fast as Ice 3 and Bolt 3 that I find to be lopsided.

If Tritoch were only x2 you'd learn those spells really early at a game breaking pace.

Where as the Fire 3 from Pheonix isn't obtained until end game anyway.

In addition, why learn Fire 3 from Phoenix instead of Tritoch Regardless? Tritoch gives the other spells as well, and unless you don't intend on teaching them Ice and Lightning 3 using Phoenix for Fire 3 is entirely pointless to begin with.

[Greatermaximus]

The learn rates are fair enough. Any faster and it would be too easy imo. I did give that a little thought. Getting Fire3 times 3 is better than nothing.

It's too bad not all of them have 'one' special magic. Like Kirin having Antidote and Scan. While Bismark's magic can be learned by many other Espers.