The Nature of Kingdom Hearts

[Marshall Banana]

That's why Disney stories are so great! They're great because they're simple.

I'm just baffled as to how anything that has been added since Kingdom Hearts I is so difficult to grasp that it's outright rejection.

Because I never said that.

I dislike it because I think it's messy. You have that backwards: you're saying that I think it's messy just because I don't like it!

Explaining or justifying the things I don't like about Kingdom Hearts doesn't make them good or neater (I mean, I know who Xehanort is, but I still think that he's a stupid concept). And Kingdom Hearts games are just Disney/Square fan service games, so I think it's perfectly fine to pick and choose what one believes from them regarding the main story! I'm sorry that my first post pushed your buttons so hard, guys. It was a very innocent post.

[Tavrobel]

Perhaps a bit of a side note, but they're apparently called Unversed now (Nomura says it was a poor translation; more like he changed his mind) and they somehow spawn from negative emotions.

Interesting change. But, if they're spawned from negative emotions, what exactly does that mean they form from? Last I checked, emotions were a matter of the Heart.

KHII isn't complicated because of the stuff involved. It suffers from RTFM syndrome (Ansem Reports). If we started comparing the depth of KH games to FF games, we'd find a very suitable match in difficulty.

[Roogle]

... but it sounds like normal inconsistencies that a lot of games/series like this have. It certainly wouldn't be the first time. This is why I'm always pleasantly surprised when a story of any kind manages to stay extremely consistent and includes a large degree of connection.

I agree. I hope that the scenario writers find a better way to explain Kingdom Hearts. One would think that special care would be taken for the titular plot point of the series...

[Ouch!]

Perhaps a bit of a side note, but they're apparently called Unversed now (Nomura says it was a poor translation; more like he changed his mind) and they somehow spawn from negative emotions.

Interesting change. But, if they're spawned from negative emotions, what exactly does that mean they form from? Last I checked, emotions were a matter of the Heart.

From what I've seen, it's unclear so far. Given that Nomura has confirmed that Heartless (and so by extension Nobodies) do not exist in Kingdom Hearts: Birth by Sleep, the common consensus seems to be that the Unversed are somehow the prototypical heartless. The most recent Famitsu article on Birth by Sleep said that Eraqus (the origin of the keyblade master's name is, in fact, merely an anagram of square) suspects Master Xehanort is involved as his disappearance coincides with the appearance of the Unversed.

[Wolf Kanno]

Unversed means "Those who are not well versed in their own existence" and according to the Kingdom Heart's wiki they only "grow off of negative emotion" which I might interpret as meaning they are drawn and grow from the emotions of people. They are also suppose to be the "opposite of life".

I would guess they are possible the original form of the Heartless and Nobodies. By that, I mean a creature spawned from darkness that may have lost their heart but did not go through the process of splitting into a Heartless and Nobody rather it being a Heartless that may have kept their body however warped.

**********************************************8


Here's another debate I've pondered with people is whether or not Riku has a Nobody. He was possessed by the Heartless Ansem but its never stated if Ansem consumed Riku's heart like a normal Heartless. Do you think Riku qualified for a Nobody? Is it possible he might have a special nobody like Roxas or Namine? Just a simply debate I got into and sense we're kinda discussing unexplained phenomena already its fine to debate.

[black orb]

>>> No offence to the KH fans but remember that this is a game that mix FF with Disney characters, in other words you cant even take this game seriously..

BTW
I played the original KH game but i didnt have the stomach to finish it so I made my little brother beat it for me (atleast he enjoyed it)..

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

I don't think Riku ever "lost" his heart like Sora or Kairi did. As far as I am aware and from what I recall, Riku was always present in Xehanort's Heartless. Actually, I think it would be more appropriate to understand it as Riku being possessed by Xehanort's Heartless than Riku actually losing his heart.

:O They are called Unversed now? Interesting. It also gave me an idea! From what was said, I assume Unversed are predecessors of Heartless and Nobodies. They also feed on negative emotions. So maybe Heartless and Nobodies came to being when an Unversed "ate" (for the lack of better word) all the negative emotions of a given being. The Unversed, filled with the negative emotions becomes a Heartless while its prey, emptied of its negative emotions, becomes a Nobody? Though the only problem with this is what happened to the positive emotions? Unless somehow those are consumed when the Unversed becomes a Heartless since Heartless feeds on hearts. Anyways, just a theory that came to me. Not well thought out. :x

Maybe Kingdom Hearts is not a constant? It only arises when hearts start to gather. It always seemed to be something rather abstract given physical form than having any permanent, concrete existences of its own. :/

[Tavrobel]

>>> No offence to the KH fans but remember that this is a game that mix FF with Disney characters, in other words you cant even take this game seriously..

Then you could also apply that logic to any work of art with a story ever. Please, tell that to my Literature professor so that I don't have to do anything in that class other than skip it. I suppose I shouldn't learn from Aladdin that if I happen to chance upon fortunes, that I should not take them for granted, and that I shouldn't use that fortune solely for the sake of some tail. I should also not yell at my pet monkey or any supernatural entities that can't kill me, but also the same entities that can make my life miserable.

Here's another debate I've pondered with people is whether or not Riku has a Nobody. He was possessed by the Heartless Ansem but its never stated if Ansem consumed Riku's heart like a normal Heartless. Do you think Riku qualified for a Nobody? Is it possible he might have a special nobody like Roxas or Namine? Just a simply debate I got into and sense we're kinda discussing unexplained phenomena already its fine to debate.

TSoL's answer is correct: Riku never became a Heartless. He was just a jerk. He didn't really lose anything other than control.

As for the Unversed, I figured that they would follow the pattern of parts that constitute a person that remain unused. But seeing as how Heartless didn't exist before KHI (according to the Ansem Reports), I supposed that the Unversed would be there to fill that void. Gotta have something to fight. I don't think that Unversed would "turn into" a Heartless or a Nobody after a certain point. If we applied an evolutionary approach, then we should have seen Unversed in KHI and KHII (very definitely KHII).

Either way, I don't see Unversed finally turning into a Heartless after consuming all of the negative emotions possible. Riku and Sora at certain points would have compromised themselves if that were the case. Plus, not all Heartless are malicious or inherently violent. White Mushrooms and Truffles don't attack people for the sake of attacking. I didn't sense negativity when I juggled them in the air.

[Ouch!]

As for the Unversed, I figured that they would follow the pattern of parts that constitute a person that remain unused. But seeing as how Heartless didn't exist before KHI (according to the Ansem Reports), I supposed that the Unversed would be there to fill that void. Gotta have something to fight. I don't think that Unversed would "turn into" a Heartless or a Nobody after a certain point. If we applied an evolutionary approach, then we should have seen Unversed in KHI and KHII (very definitely KHII).

Nomura, being fairly liberal with information, has already confirmed that Unversed no longer exist by the time of Kingdom Hearts. The reason is unclear.

[Tavrobel]

Nomura, being fairly liberal with information, has already confirmed that Unversed no longer exist by the time of Kingdom Hearts. The reason is unclear.

I don't suppose that every set of time in the KH universe would have different enemies, depending on the Keyblade users/jerks who try to destroy stuff. After all, if all of the enemies from way back when don't appear anymore, and that the enemies of today didn't exist back then, the only possible conclusion is that Jesus did it.

[PuPu]

In KHI, the place was a dark world where the Heartless reside and possibly originate from.

No, what you saw was the Realm of Darkness. The Realm of Darkness is where all Heartless come from, and you were able to see them because you were looking through the Door to Darkness.

In KH2, its still a world of darkness but surprisingly looks like the World That Never Was.

...Kingdom Hearts isn't a world. It's just a giant collection of hearts. The World That Never Was that you see "inside" Kingdom Hearts was created by Xemnas, who absorbed KH's power.

I can see Ansem (Xehanort Apprentice) seeing KH as a world of darkness filled with Heartless

It's not a world of darkness though. You know, Sora even said "Kingdom Hearts is light!"

and I can see Xemnas viewing it as a place of nothingness that all things begin and end as.

No, Xemnas saw it as a power source. Xemnas even says "Hearts are power" and KH was just that, a giant collection of hearts.

since the door wasn't even open to it until the very end

Because Sora and Mickey locked the door to KH in KH1, and they didn't re-open it again until they needed to go in again.

so the world becomes a realm of darkness again despite the Heartless not being present in the world.

Xemnas created another TWTNW because he absorbed KH's power.

In KH1, its a place in the heart of darkness where destroyed worlds go to

You're confusing KH with the Realm of Darkness. When the worlds were "destroyed" they were swallowed by darkness and sent to the Realm of Darkness.

Ansem: This world has been connected. Tied to the Darkness...

whereas in KH2, Order XIII artificially creates the doorway

Organization XIII didn't create a doorway at all. Xemnas absorbed KH's power, and the door that Sora walks through was created by the worlds, as Mickey says.

At any rate, I don't think anyone is trying to argue that Kingdom Hearts is in any way especially deep. It's really not. It only flirts with issues belying any amount of depth. However, I think you're severely exaggerating how confusing it is.

Tell that to the tons of people who don't understand the game.

"HUNH?!? How was Naminé created if Kairi never became a Heartless?!"

Xemnas was willing to do evil in order to accomplish what he thought would end the suffering of those who were like him (ultimately what can be considered a "good" act).

Come on, Tav. I thought you would have known that Xemnas never planned on getting his heart back. He just wanted supreme power.

Here's how Nomura says how you can become whole:

"When heartless are defeated, essentially the owner's hearts are rejoined with their once extinguished body, whichever world it may be on."
-Director's Secret Report XIII

Since his Heartless was already defeated, he literally could have had his heart rejoin his body any time he wanted. In fact, he prevented all Nobodies from being whole again by redirecting all hearts to Kingdom Hearts instead of their original bodies, in order to obtain supreme power.

I'm just baffled as to how anything that has been added since Kingdom Hearts I is so difficult to grasp that it's outright rejection.

It's difficult to grasp because many people don't bother reading stuff like the (Secret) Ansem Reports or the Director's Secret Report XIII.

[Tavrobel]

Come on, Tav. I thought you would have known that Xemnas never planned on getting his heart back. He just wanted supreme power.

Here's how Nomura says how you can become whole:

"When heartless are defeated, essentially the owner's hearts are rejoined with their once extinguished body, whichever world it may be on."
-Director's Secret Report XIII

Since his Heartless was already defeated, he literally could have had his heart rejoin his body any time he wanted. In fact, he prevented all Nobodies from being whole again by redirecting all hearts to Kingdom Hearts instead of their original bodies, in order to obtain supreme power.

Not according to KHII's in-game material; I haven't read the extra material anyways, nor have I played 179.

Normally, I'd advocate using out of game material to support arguments, but when it comes to Nomura, my willingness to accept it is 0%. Simply because he sucks at attempting to expand his world by using forcing people to suffer RTFM syndrome.

[PuPu]

Not according to KHII's in-game material; I haven't read the extra material anyways, nor have I played 179.

Speaking of Days, (SPOILER)Xion actually figured out Xemnas' true plans and told Roxas to stop him.

Also, check out what Xemnas had to say in the Secret Reports, Day 358...

"With luck, we can bring Roxas back into our fold, but even if Sora should awaken, as the hero of the Keyblade, he is bound to keep unlocking hearts. If he should come to target us, we need simply subdue him and use his powers ourselves once more. I must become one with Kingdom Hearts. I will become a higher existence. All of my true ambitions begin there. "

Once again, he never planned on getting his heart back, and he duped the rest of the Organization just to get what he wanted, which is to become God. In fact, he actually sent Saix to his death when Saix asked him if he could "end this charade." Apparently, the Organization was also full of traitors besides Marluxia and Larxene, and Xemnas knew this the entire time.

Normally, I'd advocate using out of game material to support arguments, but when it comes to Nomura, my willingness to accept it is 0%.

But that doesn't mean that it isn't true, or that I'm wrong.

Please use Spoiler Tags PuPu, some of us have not played 358/2 ~WK

[Tavrobel]

I haven't played it, so if this is what is stated in 179, then I have no qualms. I just won't know about it.

It's not about you being right. It's just that Nomura is an idiot.

[Wolf Kanno]

I see what you mean about my confusion of the World of Darkness but I feel part of the confusion comes from Ansems' (Xehanort's Heartless) during the whole final battle sequence as he does tend to use DTD and KH interchangeably but this is due to his own misconceptions of the world. I also do feel that Ansem's way of discussing KH implies it is a place or "World" as opposed to simply an object that Heart's go and come from.

Still there are problems here, when we get to KH2 since KH appears in The World That Never Was and the TWTNW is supposedly a realm that exists in the "World's In-Between" whereas KH1 is quite adamant about KH existing in the World of Darkness (in fact, its interesting to note that KH is the only known thing to exist in the World of Darkness at this point in the series). So how can Xemnas have access to it? Even though KH is there, its supposedly in the World of Darkness and your own party has to travel through the DTD to even get to Xemnas' KH (its remade to look like TWTNW, but it is actually Kingdom Hearts from sources I've read and once again implies KH may actually be a World and not an object). There is a logical discrepancy here that throws off the nature of what KH actually is.