The Nature of Kingdom Hearts

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

It is quite possible that there are two different Kingdom Hearts. The KH of the first game can considered, in many ways, the heart of all worlds. The place from which all hearts come and go, the original heart.

In the second game, Kingdom Hearts is created by Xenmas. This project starts in 358/2 Days when both Roxas and (SPOILER)Xion are recruited for that very purpose. Later, Org. XIII uses Sora to continue the task of collecting hearts. It is noted that only the keyblades can harvest hearts.

This theory assumes Xenmas did something to prevent the hearts from going to the KH in the World of Darkness, thus forcing them to gather outside the The World That Never Was. Basically stopping them as they cross from the World of Light to the World of Darkness in the World In-Between (where WTNW is found).

[PuPu]

Still there are problems here, when we get to KH2 since KH appears in The World That Never Was and the TWTNW is supposedly a realm that exists in the "World's In-Between" whereas KH1 is quite adamant about KH existing in the World of Darkness

Kingdom Hearts is still in the Realm of Darkness. TWTNW is right on the edge of the Realm of Darkness.

"At present, there are 4 worlds in-between these planes that have appeared.
A) Castle Oblivion
B) Twilight Town
C) Yen Sid's Tower
D) The World That Never Was.

Constructed in this manner, Light < C < B > A > D > Darkness, you can imagine 2 planes with stairs ranging between the worlds."
-Director's Secret Report XIII

Even though KH is there, its supposedly in the World of Darkness and your own party has to travel through the DTD to even get to Xemnas' KH

After Sora defeats Xemnas in the dream-Memory Skyscraper, Xemnas absorbs the power of KH. Meaning KH is actually inside him, because he absorbed it. (SPOILER)He "became one with KH," like he said in the Secret Reports of 358/2 Days. The door that SDG travel through leads to KH, which happens to be inside Xemnas, because as Mickey said, the Worlds created that door. The Worlds created the door to KH in KH1 and they do it again in KH2, even though KH was temporarily relocated.

It is quite possible that there are two different Kingdom Hearts. The KH of the first game can considered, in many ways, the heart of all worlds. The place from which all hearts come and go, the original heart.

"Until now in the Kingdom Hearts (hereafter KH) Series, there have been 2 types of "Kingdom Hearts" referring to the Heart of Worlds and the Heart of Men, could you explain the mechanics of this?

Think of the basic setting of KH as "All life has a heart". The heart of a world can be considered the things of nature, for example, the trees in a forest, a sea or river, a flower and so forth, when they all come together to form a world a large heart will come into existence. And concerning the hearts designated to men, all the hearts of humans and animals living in the world are integrated. As for Kingdom Hearts, think of it as if the heart is essentially the culmination of an invisible "Proof of Life"
-Director's Secret Report XIII

In the second game, Kingdom Hearts is created by Xenmas.

Look at it this way. The KH [of worlds] is the thing that you see in KH1. In KH2, Xemnas combined the already-existing KH [of worlds] with the the KH [of men] because he was re-directing all hearts of people that had become Heartless into the KH [of worlds].

This theory assumes Xenmas did something to prevent the hearts from going to the KH in the World of Darkness, thus forcing them to gather outside the The World That Never Was. Basically stopping them as they cross from the World of Light to the World of Darkness in the World In-Between (where WTNW is found).

...No. Xemnas didn't prevent hearts from going to KH. He was the one who made them go to KH. KH is indeed in the Realm of Darkness, and TWTNW just happens to be within spitting distance of darkness.

The hearts of all the Heartless that Sora defeated weren't meant to go to KH. They were meant to return to the bodies of those who had lost their hearts, wherever they may be, as said in the Director's Secret Report XIII.

[Wolf Kanno]

Still there are problems here, when we get to KH2 since KH appears in The World That Never Was and the TWTNW is supposedly a realm that exists in the "World's In-Between" whereas KH1 is quite adamant about KH existing in the World of Darkness

Kingdom Hearts is still in the Realm of Darkness. TWTNW is right on the edge of the Realm of Darkness.

"At present, there are 4 worlds in-between these planes that have appeared.
A) Castle Oblivion
B) Twilight Town
C) Yen Sid's Tower
D) The World That Never Was.

Constructed in this manner, Light < C < B > A > D > Darkness, you can imagine 2 planes with stairs ranging between the worlds."
-Director's Secret Report XIII

I already understand this but I feel the answer is completely unsatisfactory and contradicts information already stated in the series (and the Director's Reports no less). The world's are separate by a great distance of space in all cases (even the Beach of Nothingness is stated to peer into the World of Darkness by Nomura, he never said you could reach it by being there.) and the World of Darkness presented in KH1 is locked away and yet here's Xemnas, with a Kingdom Hearts in his backyard as if it was always like this. Even if they were in "spitting distance" the worlds should be technically separate from each other by a barrier after the events of KH1. Its obvious that Xemnas didn't use a Corridor of Darkness to reach KH nor did DiZ when he tried to digitize KH. Kingdom Hearts is treated as physically existing in that world despite this contradicting the info given in KH1.

Even though KH is there, its supposedly in the World of Darkness and your own party has to travel through the DTD to even get to Xemnas' KH

After Sora defeats Xemnas in the dream-Memory Skyscraper, Xemnas absorbs the power of KH. Meaning KH is actually inside him, because he absorbed it. (SPOILER)He "became one with KH," like he said in the Secret Reports of 358/2 Days. The door that SDG travel through leads to KH, which happens to be inside Xemnas, because as Mickey said, the Worlds created that door. The Worlds created the door to KH in KH1 and they do it again in KH2, even though KH was temporarily relocated.

The worlds didn't create the DTD of KH1, the Seven Princess's of Heart created the means to reach it with the Final Keyhole. KH1 pretty much implies that the DTD is at a specific location just as it also implies Kingdom Hearts (or at least the Heart of Worlds) is located in a specific place (World of Darkness) how then can KH and the DTD be ethereal and intangible things that come and go on a whim as KHII implies?

Basically are there two Kingdom Hearts as Nomura implies in his interview? Is the Heart of Worlds located in the Realm of Darkness and is the Heart of Man an abstract concept that exist wherever it wishes to be? If both are one part of the true Kingdom Hearts, how then can Xemnas and Heartless Xehanort truly achive their goals by only obtaining what appears to be one half of the cosmological whole? Or is KH something like a physics and philosophical allusion to the Christian concept of the Trinity? Being both tangible and intangible, being a place both physically and metaphorically.

This is ultimately what I'm trying to discover and regretfully, Nomura's interview only makes the issue more difficult to comprehend.

[PuPu]

I already understand this but I feel the answer is completely unsatisfactory and contradicts information already stated in the series (and the Director's Reports no less).

No...it really doesn't.

The world's are separate by a great distance of space in all cases (even the Beach of Nothingness is stated to peer into the World of Darkness by Nomura, he never said you could reach it by being there.)

Because KH is in a specific part of the World of Darkness, one which TWTNW happens to be near.

and the World of Darkness presented in KH1 is locked away

Mickey, Riku, and the Heartless disagree with this statement.

and yet here's Xemnas, with a Kingdom Hearts in his backyard as if it was always like this.

Um, ya. It's convenient, but it's true.

Even if they were in "spitting distance" the worlds should be technically separate from each other by a barrier after the events of KH1. Its obvious that Xemnas didn't use a Corridor of Darkness to reach KH nor did DiZ when he tried to digitize KH.

Did you miss the whole "Kingdom Hearts isn't a world" deal?

Kingdom Hearts is treated as physically existing in that world despite this contradicting the info given in KH1.

There's obviously more than one way to get to KH. You saw one way in KH1, and you see another way in KH2. It's not contradictory at all, it was never implied that there was only one way to get to KH.

The worlds didn't create the DTD of KH1, the Seven Princess's of Heart created the means to reach it with the Final Keyhole.

Alright, I'll give you that.

KH1 pretty much implies that the DTD is at a specific location

You've got to stop doing this. It didn't "imply" it at all, that place where you fought Xehanort's Heartless in KH1 is really just a random location and not specific at all location that's very close to the Realm of Darkness.

just as it also implies Kingdom Hearts (or at least the Heart of Worlds) is located in a specific place (World of Darkness)

...with more than one way of getting there.

how then can KH and the DTD be ethereal and intangible things that come and go on a whim as KHII implies?

KH didn't come and go on a whim at all. It's in the Realm of Darkness in KH1, still in the Realm of Darkness in KH2. How can the DTD come and go on a whim? It doesn't matter how, all that matters is that it did. When Sora, Mickey, and Riku sealed it in KH1, it went poof and it appeared out of thin air when they needed to open it again. But, as Mickey said, the worlds did it.

Basically are there two Kingdom Hearts as Nomura implies in his interview? Is the Heart of Worlds located in the Realm of Darkness and is the Heart of Man an abstract concept that exist wherever it wishes to be?

Saïx: Pitiful Heartless, mindlessly collecting hearts. And yet they know not
the true power of what they hold. The rage of the Keyblade releases those
hearts. They gather in darkness, masterless and free...until they weave together
to make Kingdom Hearts [of men].

If both are one part of the true Kingdom Hearts, how then can Xemnas
and Heartless Xehanort truly achive their goals by only obtaining what
appears to be one half of the cosmological whole?

</pre>Have you been paying attention at all? The KH of worlds already existed, and as Saix said, Xemnas made the KH of men and combined it with the KH of worlds. That's both KH's that he had, until Ansem the Wise blew up the KH of men with his machine, causing most, if not all of the hearts that Xemnas collected to rain down from the sky. As for XH, he only cared about the darkness in KH, not the power that KH has itself.

Or is KH something like a physics and philosophical allusion to the Christian concept of the Trinity? Being both tangible and intangible, being a place both physically and metaphorically.

Uh...no?

This is ultimately what I'm trying to discover and regretfully, Nomura's interview only makes the issue more difficult to comprehend.

Why? Just because it disagrees with your own views?

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

So I only just read the Director's Secret report (your posts made me realize it exists)...

I still say that the KH of World and KH of Men are two separate things. The evidence is in 358/2, since the KH outside TWTNW only appears after Roxas starts collecting hearts for Org. XIII. Were the hearts of men simply added to KH of Worlds, then KH would have always been visible from the Grey Room, but it wasn't.

Also, KH is definitely a place, since that is where the final battle in KHII occurs. Xenmas takes control of the power of KH, that's how he "became one" and had power over it. I don't think it is inside him, the power yes not the physical KH. You might not want to call it a "world" but it is a place. Just because KH, whichever one you want, is the "Proof of Life" doesn't prevent it from being a place as well. As the final battle of KHII clearly indicates.

how then can KH and the DTD be ethereal and intangible things that come and go on a whim as KHII implies?

DTD and Dark Corridors are two different things. DTD is made by the hearts of the Princesses of Heart and leads one from the Realm of Light to the Realm of Darkness. Dark Corridors are summoned by beings with power over Darkness, like Nobodies, Riku and assuming King Mickey (since you know, he has the Keyblade of Darkness) and you travel through Darkness.

You've got to stop doing this. It didn't "imply" it at all, that place where you fought Xehanort's Heartless in KH1 is really just a random location and not specific at all location that's very close to the Realm of Darkness.

The last battle in KHI happens in the Realm of Darkness, somewhere. Just a random place in the Realm of Darkness.

As for the barriers Wolf is mentioning it is the barriers between the worlds, not the one between the realms. To travel between realms you either use DTD, Door to Light or Dark Corridors, at least that is the only way they have shown so far. Apparently Twilight Town is close enough to the Realm of Light that you can just Gummi it.

[Wolf Kanno]

I already understand this but I feel the answer is completely unsatisfactory and contradicts information already stated in the series (and the Director's Reports no less).

No...it really doesn't.

.Director's Secret Report XIII

About KH Worlds

II - Worlds appear in KH, could you please give an explanation of the means of coming and going between them?

At present, there are 4 worlds in-between these planes that have appeared. A) Castle Oblivion, B)Twilight Town, C) Yen Sid's Tower, and D) The World That Never Was. Constructed in this manner, Light < C < B > A > D > Darkness, you can imagine 2 planes with stairs ranging between the worlds. There are 2 means of transfer between these worlds, first being the Gummi Ship Sora uses in what is called the "Sea of Outer Space". In this way they can come and go between the worlds dotted through space. There is an invisible shell covering these worlds, so as to preserve the original world from interference from other worlds. By opening the hearts of each of these worlds this shell is broken and will become a group of shooting stars pouring down. Once settled, these shooting stars will become the Gummi Parts of the Gummi Ship. Because they were originally from the shell covering this world, it becomes possible to interfere into each world

The whole point of KH1 was to seal the world and prevent the Heartless from interfering and destroying the Heart of these individual worlds. One of Sora's missions in KH2 is creating pathways of light between the World's in the Realm of Light. How then can two separate worlds openly interfere with each other at the end of KH2 when its has been stated time and agin that the world's are separate by a barrier, not to mention the hell you have to go through to get from Twilight Town to The World That Never Was which was only accomplished by going through a Corridor of Darkness.

You are basically saying the rules don't always apply. I mean if it was that easy to get from the Realm of Light to the Realm of Darkness by going through the In-Between Worlds what the smurf was Xehanort's Heartless even bothering with the DTD in KH1?

The world's are separate by a great distance of space in all cases (even the Beach of Nothingness is stated to peer into the World of Darkness by Nomura, he never said you could reach it by being there.)

Because KH is in a specific part of the World of Darkness, one which TWTNW happens to be near.[QUOTE]

I can give you that.

and the World of Darkness presented in KH1 is locked away

Mickey, Riku, and the Heartless disagree with this statement.

Director's Secret Report XIII

About KH Worlds

II - Worlds appear in KH, could you please give an explanation of the means of coming and going between them?
There is one more method, the use of the "Dark Corridor". There are those who are on a fallen path, essentially not being on the path they should be. Only those who can be said to have a Dark existence or an In-between existence can make these doorways. On rare occasion those with particularly strong feelings or hatred, such as the case with Beast and Diz and perhaps others like them can open these paths. However you must be careful when coming into contact with such darkness. As such, if you use these paths too often you will be completely swallowed by darkness. Sora has used these paths several times before, but the degree of frequency hasn't allowed the darkness to stain his heart, so you can think of the influential power of darkness as being dependent upon the strength of the persons heart.

As for the Nobodies who have no heart and the King and Riku, using these paths many times doesn't concern them. Why doesn't the darkness progressively swallow them you ask? There are secret similarities between the two that are talked about in the game.

Seeing as how Heartless can still get into world's after they have had their Heart's sealed away shows that locking has limitations. They prevent the flood of Darkness into the Realm of Light but it still can't prevent entities from interacting between both worlds if they use Corridors of Darkness. Riku only made it to Castle Oblivion cause "his heart led him to Sora".

Even if they were in "spitting distance" the worlds should be technically separate from each other by a barrier after the events of KH1. Its obvious that Xemnas didn't use a Corridor of Darkness to reach KH nor did DiZ when he tried to digitize KH.

Did you miss the whole "Kingdom Hearts isn't a world" deal?

"What in the world do you think you're prattling on about? Kingdom Hearts belongs to me! The Heart of all Kingdoms! The Heart of all that lives! A dominion fit to be called Kingdom Hearts must be my dominion!" -Maleficent Kingdom Hearts 1

I don't mean to create confusion by saying its a world in the sense that KH series defines a world, I just mean to imply it is a physical place and not a philosophical abstract thought like VII's "Promised Land". The fact of the matter is you can journey and get there cause its a place you can travel to.

Kingdom Hearts is treated as physically existing in that world despite this contradicting the info given in KH1.

There's obviously more than one way to get to KH. You saw one way in KH1, and you see another way in KH2. It's not contradictory at all, it was never implied that there was only one way to get to KH.

It is partially contradicting or at least bad writing as Xehanort's Heartless as well as the Disney Villains bust there asses to create the Final Keyhole and open the DTD to reach Kingdom Hearts whereas Organization XIII simply forms one in there backyard. having easy access to it despite Maleficent and Xehanort's Heartless having the same powers to travel to the Realm of Darkness. I find this makes everything in KH1 seem pointless and silly since there is an incredibly simply way to get to KH revealed in the sequel. Am I the only one who sees this as faulty writing?

KH1 pretty much implies that the DTD is at a specific location

You've got to stop doing this. It didn't "imply" it at all, that place where you fought Xehanort's Heartless in KH1 is really just a random location and not specific at all location that's very close to the Realm of Darkness.

I would say the End of the World is a real location, temporary but hardly random. It also a place that cannot be accessed openly without the Final Keyhole, I would say that constitutes a "specific location". Even if that location is simply a place close to the Realm of Darkness its still a specific place considering many of the other world's that qualify for being close don't. Considering the nature of the Heartless and the End of the World as well as their correlations to the Realm of Darkness, I can't see the DTD opening anywhere else in the KH universe.

If it appeared in the World That Never Was, Xehanort's Heartless could just pluck KH out of the sky

just as it also implies Kingdom Hearts (or at least the Heart of Worlds) is located in a specific place (World of Darkness)

...with more than one way of getting there.

...that makes the first game seem retarded and a waste of time since KH can be down the street...

how then can KH and the DTD be ethereal and intangible things that come and go on a whim as KHII implies?

KH didn't come and go on a whim at all. It's in the Realm of Darkness in KH1, still in the Realm of Darkness in KH2. How can the DTD come and go on a whim? It doesn't matter how, all that matters is that it did. When Sora, Mickey, and Riku sealed it in KH1, it went poof and it appeared out of thin air when they needed to open it again. But, as Mickey said, the worlds did it.

No, KH is magically in the World That Never Was that is in the In-between Realm. Yes, its close to the Realm of Darkness but its still stated by Nomura to not be a direct part of the Realm of Darkness.

At present, there are 4 worlds in-between these planes that have appeared. A) Castle Oblivion, B)Twilight Town, C) Yen Sid's Tower, and D) The World That Never Was. - Director's Secret Report XIII

The World That Never was is a World, separate from the other worlds but it still has a barrier like other worlds, you're party was only able to reach said World through a Corridor of Darkness from another World of In-Between; showing that even when World's share the same property, they still don't have easy access to each other. The Major error comes from the simple fact that this World, stated to be specifically in the Realm of In-Between by the creator, can freely access the Realm of Darkness.

Even after beating Xemnas, Sora and Riku find themselves at the dark coastline which is stated by Nomura to still not be a part of the Realm of Darkness but as close as you can get. Between the In-Between World and the Realm of Darkness

What can be called the dark coastline seen at the beginning and end of KHII is the tip of a world. It is not strictly part of the realm of darkness but rather what serves as the boundary line in between the dark and the in-between

Once again, how can Xemnas and Org. XIII interact with a KH in an In-Between World when it is stated to be in the Realm of Darkness and there is a clear dividing line between this world and that realm?

Basically are there two Kingdom Hearts as Nomura implies in his interview? Is the Heart of Worlds located in the Realm of Darkness and is the Heart of Man an abstract concept that exist wherever it wishes to be?

Saïx: Pitiful Heartless, mindlessly collecting hearts. And yet they know not
the true power of what they hold. The rage of the Keyblade releases those
hearts. They gather in darkness, masterless and free...until they weave together
to make Kingdom Hearts [of men]

Yes, KH forms in the Realm of Darkness, World That Never Was is not part of the Realm of Darkness, yet KH forms in this Wolrd no less. Thank you for proving this inconsistency.

If both are one part of the true Kingdom Hearts, how then can Xemnas
and Heartless Xehanort truly achieve their goals by only obtaining what
appears to be one half of the cosmological whole?

Have you been paying attention at all? The KH of worlds already existed, and as Saix said, Xemnas made the KH of men and combined it with the KH of worlds. That's both KH's that he had, until Ansem the Wise blew up the KH of men with his machine, causing most, if not all of the hearts that Xemnas collected to rain down from the sky. As for XH, he only cared about the darkness in KH, not the power that KH has itself.
[QUOTE]

XH believed KH true nature was darkness... I would say he cared about the whole package since he believed KH to be darkness.

I'm also curious to know where you came up with Xemnas' plan to combine the Hearts of World with the Hearts of Men since I don't remember him ever stating such a grandiose plan nor do I remember Saix saying anything like that, even the quote above simply refers to Hearts returning to darkness and forming KH which is something stated more or less in KH1. Is this another reference to 358/2?

Why? Just because it disagrees with your own views?

No, because it disagrees with its own metaphysics stated by the creator. As I said, he states worlds are separate, forces the player through hoops to overcome these basic rules of the game universe and then turns around and has the villains break all the rules yet never explain how they did. He even has one set of villains go through hell and back to reach it and another set have the easiest time getting it and are only restricted by minor details.

Not to mention KH is basically a McGuffin who is said to have one set of rules in KH1 and then has conflicting rules in KH2, Summoner of Leviathan even said in his post that

KH doesn't even form in WTNW until Roxas and Xion go into action

and create what appears to be a new KH in their own world despite players knowing that the original KH is somewhere in the Realm of Darkness.

Basically, I wish to discuss the nature of KH which is both a place and concept. XH seeked KH the "place" which is made from the Heart's of World and Heart's of Men; while Org XIII created their own KH through the Hearts of Men. If KH can be artifically created, how did Xemnas do it? How could he stop hearts from returning to the KH in the Realm of Darkness? Now that Xemnas is gone, what became of the KH he created? Did it return to the true KH? or did it also fall into darkness and create a new legion of Heartless in The World That Never Was like when Asme tried to destroy it originally.

[PuPu]

I still say that the KH of World and KH of Men are two separate things. The evidence is in 358/2, since the KH outside TWTNW only appears after Roxas starts collecting hearts for Org. XIII. Were the hearts of men simply added to KH of Worlds, then KH would have always been visible from the Grey Room, but it wasn't.

The KH of Worlds was locked away in KH1, so Xemnas needed to KH of men in order for him to get the KH of worlds. After all, if he could already see the KH of worlds, he'd be fusing with it already.

Also, KH is definitely a place, since that is where the final battle in KHII occurs.

The part between entering the door and defeating Chair Xemnas 1 is not inside Kingdom Hearts. It is inside a world that Xemnas created using the power of Kingdom Hearts, similar to how when Sora fought Xemnas one-on-one, the Memory Skyscraper wasn't the actual one in TWTNW, it was just a place that Xemnas created.

Then you are back in the "real" TWNTW again after defeating Chair Xemnas 1, and then you go to the Realm of Nothing for Zebra Xemnas.

Xenmas takes control of the power of KH, that's how he "became one" and had power over it. I don't think it is inside him, the power yes not the physical KH.

That's not what "become one with" means. See: Roxas becomes one with Sora, Xion becomes one with Roxas, Naminé becomes one with Kairi, etc.

You might not want to call it a "world" but it is a place. Just because KH, whichever one you want, is the "Proof of Life" doesn't prevent it from being a place as well. As the final battle of KHII clearly indicates.

I'm sorry, but did you just say "A heart is a place"? Not that it matters, because if it isn't a world, then it doesn't have the barriers around that all the other worlds have.

The last battle in KHI happens in the Realm of Darkness, somewhere. Just a random place in the Realm of Darkness.

Uh, no. It was in a place in the Realm of In-between that was close to the Realm of Darkness. Riku and Mickey were the ones actually in the Realm of Darkness.

As for the barriers Wolf is mentioning it is the barriers between the worlds, not the one between the realms. To travel between realms you either use DTD, Door to Light or Dark Corridors, at least that is the only way they have shown so far. Apparently Twilight Town is close enough to the Realm of Light that you can just Gummi it.

What? SDG have easily been able to travel between Realm of In-between Worlds and Realm of Light Worlds in both KH1 and KH2.

The whole point of KH1 was to seal the world and prevent the Heartless from interfering and destroying the Heart of these individual worlds. One of Sora's missions in KH2 is creating pathways of light between the World's in the Realm of Light. How then can two separate worlds openly interfere with each other at the end of KH2 when its has been stated time and agin that the world's are separate by a barrier, not to mention the hell you have to go through to get from Twilight Town to The World That Never Was which was only accomplished by going through a Corridor of Darkness.

As Yen Sid said, the pathways that Sora made in KH2 were made specifically for him, not the Heartless, Org13, or anyone else. After all, the Heartless and Org13 were using their own paths, Dark Corridors.

You are basically saying the rules don't always apply. I mean if it was that easy to get from the Realm of Light to the Realm of Darkness by going through the In-Between Worlds what the smurf was Xehanort's Heartless even bothering with the DTD in KH1?

The DTD led him to the specific part of the Realm of Darkness with Kingdom Hearts, the thing which he thought was full of dark energy.

Seeing as how Heartless can still get into world's after they have had their Heart's sealed away shows that locking has limitations. They prevent the flood of Darkness into the Realm of Light but it still can't prevent entities from interacting between both worlds if they use Corridors of Darkness. Riku only made it to Castle Oblivion cause "his heart led him to Sora".

Xemnas didn't go to Kingdom Hearts. He made the KH of worlds go to him, by using his KH of men.

I don't mean to create confusion by saying its a world in the sense that KH series defines a world, I just mean to imply it is a physical place and not a philosophical abstract thought like VII's "Promised Land". The fact of the matter is you can journey and get there cause its a place you can travel to.

Are you also saying a heart is a place? And guess what? I can journey my way over to my TV, but I wouldn't call my TV a place.

It is partially contradicting or at least bad writing as Xehanort's Heartless as well as the Disney Villains bust there asses to create the Final Keyhole and open the DTD to reach Kingdom Hearts whereas Organization XIII simply forms one in there backyard.

Are you joking? It took ~10 years since Birth By Sleep for Xemnas and the Organization to create Heartless out of people and then collect all of those hearts in order to make the KH of men. It took nearly just as long for XH and Maleficent & friends to find the Princesses of Hearts as well.

having easy access to it despite Maleficent and Xehanort's Heartless having the same powers to travel to the Realm of Darkness.

It's not like you can just go to the Realm of Darkness and randomly search for it. That's like a one in infinity chance of finding something in an entire dimension, not to mention that knowing KH, it probably isn't just going to let people get near it to absorb its power.

I would say the End of the World is a real location, temporary but hardly random. It also a place that cannot be accessed openly without the Final Keyhole, I would say that constitutes a "specific location".

I'm sorry, did you just call a giant door, a place?

Considering the nature of the Heartless and the End of the World as well as their correlations to the Realm of Darkness

What does this even mean?

I can't see the DTD opening anywhere else in the KH universe.

But you did, and you can't just go "nu-uh, it's only supposed to open in one place by this one method in KH1!"

If it appeared in the World That Never Was, Xehanort's Heartless could just pluck KH out of the sky

KH didn't appear in TWTNW.

...that makes the first game seem retarded and a waste of time since KH can be down the street...

...which could only be accessed by collecting several billions of hearts...

No, KH is magically in the World That Never Was that is in the In-between Realm. Yes, its close to the Realm of Darkness but its still stated by Nomura to not be a direct part of the Realm of Darkness.

In this quote, made up lies. At this point, I shouldn't even bother continuing until you show me the actual evidence.

The Major error comes from the simple fact that this World, stated to be specifically in the Realm of In-Between by the creator, can freely access the Realm of Darkness.

Lol, no. Xemnas didn't go to KH in the Realm of Darkness. He made KH come to him, in TWTNW. Notice that after you defeat Chair Xemnas 1, you're right back in TWTNW.

Even after beating Xemnas, Sora and Riku find themselves at the dark coastline which is stated by Nomura to still not be a part of the Realm of Darkness but as close as you can get. Between the In-Between World and the Realm of Darkness

They never went to the Realm of Darkness during the battle with Xemnas, so I don't see your point.

Once again, how can Xemnas and Org. XIII interact with a KH in an In-Between World when it is stated to be in the Realm of Darkness and there is a clear dividing line between this world and that realm?

Xemnas and the Org never went into the Realm of Darkness, the Hearts did. And once again, the KH of men is not in TWTNW.

Yes, KH forms in the Realm of Darkness, World That Never Was is not part of the Realm of Darkness, yet KH forms in this Wolrd no less. Thank you for proving this inconsistency.

There's just one little problem with what you said. That it's wrong.

XH believed KH true nature was darkness... I would say he cared about the whole package since he believed KH to be darkness.

And the difference is that Xemnas cared about specifically the entire power of hearts, whereas XH only cared about the darkness that happens to come from hearts.

I'm also curious to know where you came up with Xemnas' plan to combine the Hearts of World with the Hearts of Men since I don't remember him ever stating such a grandiose plan nor do I remember Saix saying anything like that, even the quote above simply refers to Hearts returning to darkness and forming KH which is something stated more or less in KH1. Is this another reference to 358/2?

I can see why that post is somewhat confusing. Saix didn't say that Xemnas combined the two, but he did say that Xemnas made the KH of men. But again, if you remember that Ansem the Wise blew a huge hole into KH, and Xemnas said that he'll needed to "start all over again" and then told the Keybladers to "bring him more hearts" obviously his KH of men got ruined and started raining hearts. But he still managed to absorb KH's power, the KH of World's power that is.

No, because it disagrees with its own metaphysics stated by the creator. As I said, he states worlds are separate, forces the player through hoops to overcome these basic rules of the game universe and then turns around and has the villains break all the rules yet never explain how they did.

-The pathways created in KH2 were for Sora only.
-Villains use Dark Corridor hax.

He even has one set of villains go through hell and back to reach it and another set have the easiest time getting it and are only restricted by minor details.

Finding 7 Princesses in an entire dimension vs. collecting billions of hearts

Yeah, real difference in difficulty there.

and create what appears to be a new KH in their own world despite players knowing that the original KH is somewhere in the Realm of Darkness.

And the players should know that they are looking at the KH of men that Xemnas created in the Realm of Darkness, since it's easy to see the Realm of Darkness from TWTNW. I'm still not getting how you think the KH of men is in TWTNW and not the Realm of Darkness.

If KH can be artifically created, how did Xemnas do it?

...by taking billions of hearts and having them cluster together. You literally see him do it in KH2.

How could he stop hearts from returning to the KH in the Realm of Darkness?

They don't normally return to KH, they return to their original bodies, as said in the DSR13.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

The game CLEARLY states several times that Kingdom Hearts is a place. You have to basically ignore what everyone else says to think otherwise. Nomura never said it wasn't a place either.

Xemnas appears defeated, returning Sora to the Castle That Never Was, but Xemnas is still alive and well, basking inside Kingdom Hearts, urging it to join forces with him to gain the power needed to destroy their common enemies. Sora and the others try to stop him, but it is too late, and Xemnas is absorbed into Kingdom Hearts. Fortunately, the worlds created a door for Sora and the others to enter, for they wanted them to be the guardians of their destiny. They then follow Xemnas into Kingdom Hearts, but they see that Xemnas has taken its power and transformed the realm into a place resembling the World That Never Was with a giant fortress in the middle.

So yeah, KH is pretty much confirmed to be an actually place.

As for a heart being a place, KH is more than a single heart. Furthermore, it is not an unusual idea if you know anything about Buddhism. In Pure Land thought, Amida can be thought of being a mental state/state of consciousness, the nembutsu, his Western Pure Land, and some other things. This might seem tangential, but it purpose is to say that yeah KH is the integration of hearts but it can be a place at the same time.

Also, I assume that the In-Between Worlds are close enough to the Realm of Light that you can Gummi Ship it. TWTNW is closer to the Realm of Darkness thus the reason that the first time you go to it you must take a Corridors to Darkness/Dark Corridors.

Also, I was specifically talking about DTD and Dark Corridors in regards of travelling between the Realm of Light and the Realm of Darkness. I said "realms", I know but I wasn't really considering In-Between during that.

Wolf said that End of World is a place, not the DTD which is located therein.

I am pretty sure the two KHs never became one. There is a lot more evidence indicating two KH simultaneously existing than to theorize that the two became one. Basically, KH of Worlds is sealed away so Xemnas can't get to it, so he makes his own using the hearts freed by the Keyblade masters. I do not recall at any point there being indication for the seal locking away the KH of Worlds being broken or the two coming into one.

[PuPu]

The game CLEARLY states several times that Kingdom Hearts is a place.

The only stuff I remember is stuff like "the place where all hearts go" or something like that. But so what? My computer is the "place" where all my personal data goes, and that doesn't make my computer a place.

Nomura never said it wasn't a place either.

Don't give me "well nothing says I'm wrong" BS. Nomura also never said that KH2FM wasn't going to be released outside of Japan either, but we all know the answer to that.

So yeah, KH is pretty much confirmed to be an actually place.

If you're going to try and prove me wrong, don't use worthless, unmoderated, trash, wikia sites to do so.

This might seem tangential, but it purpose is to say that yeah KH is the integration of hearts but it can be a place at the same time.

Now you're just defining "place" in an abstract way. Either way, because KH is not a world, it doesn't have the walls that other worlds do.

Also, I assume that the In-Between Worlds are close enough to the Realm of Light that you can Gummi Ship it. TWTNW is closer to the Realm of Darkness thus the reason that the first time you go to it you must take a Corridors to Darkness/Dark Corridors.

And why would being closer to darkness prevent Sora from getting there by Gummi Ship?

Also, I was specifically talking about DTD and Dark Corridors in regards of travelling between the Realm of Light and the Realm of Darkness. I said "realms", I know but I wasn't really considering In-Between during that.

You're right that the DTD and Dark Corridors can get you to go from the Realm of Light to the Realm of Darkness. But what does jumping directly from Light to Dark and skipping In-Between have to do with what you are saying?

Wolf said that End of World is a place, not the DTD which is located therein.

You're not in End of the World anymore once you are done fighting Ansem 2, and the DTD is NOT in EotW.

I am pretty sure the two KHs never became one. There is a lot more evidence indicating two KH simultaneously existing than to theorize that the two became one. Basically, KH of Worlds is sealed away so Xemnas can't get to it, so he makes his own using the hearts freed by the Keyblade masters. I do not recall at any point there being indication for the seal locking away the KH of Worlds being broken or the two coming into one.

Xemnas' KH of men was ruined by Ansem the Wise's machine, but he still absorbed KH. The KH that wasn't ruined. The KH of worlds.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

So wait, Wolf Kanno's quoting Maleficent doesn't count as it being a place/location? Or how about the fact that the you go through the door created by the worlds at the end of KHII, a door that quite obviously leads you into KH where Xemnas is? The mere fact of "going to" KH means that it is a location that you can go to. The last fight begins inside KH that has been manipulated by Xemnas. Why can't this be inside KH? Yes, it is a space manipulated by Xemnas who has the power of KH but that does not mean it cannot be inside KH. Furthermore, you earlier compared the merger of Xemnas and KH to that of Nobodies and their owners. And we agree that the door created by the worlds is like the DTD: it leads to KH. So if KH is "inside Xemnas" as it is according to you, and you go through the door to KH, logic indicates that you are not only inside Xemnas but also in KH since the two are one in the same.

Not really an abstract definition. Just look it up, what I said is not really outside our conventional usage of the word.

I think I should state this clear for you, both me and Wolf are not saying that KH is a world like Neverland, TWTNW, or whatever, we are merely stating that it is a place, a location. If I recall correctly, Wolf had said so himself earlier and now I am saying so too.

Oh and if I was data then a computer would be a place to me. :P

You're right that the DTD and Dark Corridors can get you to go from the Realm of Light to the Realm of Darkness. But what does jumping directly from Light to Dark and skipping In-Between have to do with what you are saying?

It had to do with travelling and an earlier point which I cannot find right now.

Xemnas' KH of men was ruined by Ansem the Wise's machine, but he still absorbed KH. The KH that wasn't ruined. The KH of worlds.

Or it could be that it all was the KH of Men and it was partially destroyed and what remained was absorbed? Nothing says that couldn't be a possibility except for you though there is no concrete proof to say the two were merged in the first place.

We all agree that the KH of Worlds is in the Realm of Darkness (ref: KHI). We agree that Xemnas is manipulating the hearts of men to create a KH of Men (ref: 358/2 Days and KHII). Now where does it say that the two have to become one? Also, if the KH of Men is in the Realm of Darkness, which is the logically conclusion since you are saying it is not in TWTNW, then that means Xemnas is pretty fricken strong since he is influencing the hearts to gather and form KH of Men, since their natural inclination is to return to their body or to suspend (according to the Director's Secret Report). Also, there is the problem of basic metaphysical placement if the KH in KHII is not in TWTNW but in the Realm of Darkness yet the Dark Coastline where Riku and Sora are at the end of KHII overlooks the Realm of Darkness. So in one case we have the Realm of Darkness "above" (in the sky) the Realm of Twilight, but in the other they are side by side. Am I the only one who thinks this is inconsistent?

[Wolf Kanno]

Uh, no. It was in a place in the Realm of In-between that was close to the Realm of Darkness. Riku and Mickey were the ones actually in the Realm of Darkness.

Technically its not even an official world of In-Between

At present, there are 4 worlds in-between these planes that have appeared. A) Castle Oblivion, B)Twilight Town, C) Yen Sid's Tower, and D) The World That Never Was. - Director's Secret Report XIII

The whole point of KH1 was to seal the world and prevent the Heartless from interfering and destroying the Heart of these individual worlds. One of Sora's missions in KH2 is creating pathways of light between the World's in the Realm of Light. How then can two separate worlds openly interfere with each other at the end of KH2 when its has been stated time and again that the world's are separate by a barrier, not to mention the hell you have to go through to get from Twilight Town to The World That Never Was which was only accomplished by going through a Corridor of Darkness.

As Yen Sid said, the pathways that Sora made in KH2 were made specifically for him, not the Heartless, Org13, or anyone else. After all, the Heartless and Org13 were using their own paths, Dark Corridors.

You completely missed the point of my statement. The world's are seperated by Barriers, The World That Never Was is an In Between World, so its barrier should prevent people to freely move in and out of it without the aid of a Gummi Ship or a Corridor of Darkness. Technically, reaching Kingdom Hearts from TWTNW should be impossible and the idea of summoning KH to a world outside of the Realm of Darkness has never once been stated to happen in any of the games.

Seeing as how Heartless can still get into world's after they have had their Heart's sealed away shows that locking has limitations. They prevent the flood of Darkness into the Realm of Light but it still can't prevent entities from interacting between both worlds if they use Corridors of Darkness. Riku only made it to Castle Oblivion cause "his heart led him to Sora".

Xemnas didn't go to Kingdom Hearts. He made the KH of worlds go to him, by using his KH of men.

Proof? He never once said anything about bringing KH of Worlds to him with the KH of Men. You're making stuff up since you have yet to once bring real evidence to say he did this.

I don't mean to create confusion by saying its a world in the sense that KH series defines a world, I just mean to imply it is a physical place and not a philosophical abstract thought like VII's "Promised Land". The fact of the matter is you can journey and get there cause its a place you can travel to.

Are you also saying a heart is a place? And guess what? I can journey my way over to my TV, but I wouldn't call my TV a place.

In KH? Yes it is. If a massive amount of Hearts leads to the creation of Heart the size of a small moon then yes its a place. A single rock may not be a place but when you get a few billion together to form a single object its a place.

It is partially contradicting or at least bad writing as Xehanort's Heartless as well as the Disney Villains bust there asses to create the Final Keyhole and open the DTD to reach Kingdom Hearts whereas Organization XIII simply forms one in there backyard.

Are you joking? It took ~10 years since Birth By Sleep for Xemnas and the Organization to create Heartless out of people and then collect all of those hearts in order to make the KH of men. It took nearly just as long for XH and Maleficent & friends to find the Princesses of Hearts as well.

We don't even know what Maleficent has been doing for the last ten years or how long she has been trying to gather the Princess of Hearts. For all we know, she could have started a few months before KH1 began. Until Birth By Sleep we won't know. As for Org. XIII, it took 9 years for a new Keyblade master to appear, it took them little over a year to amass enough hearts for them to create a artificial KH. Yeah, its pretty easy to do when you've got the tools to pull it off.

having easy access to it despite Maleficent and Xehanort's Heartless having the same powers to travel to the Realm of Darkness.

It's not like you can just go to the Realm of Darkness and randomly search for it. That's like a one in infinity chance of finding something in an entire dimension, not to mention that knowing KH, it probably isn't just going to let people get near it to absorb its power.

This is completely baseless conjecture, we know very little about the Realm of Darkness so its impossible to say whether it would be difficult to find it in the KH universe. Considering the biggest hurdle for all the villains in the series is actually getting into the Realm of Darkness, I would say its probably not that hard to find it once you get there as XH found out the hard way.

I would say the End of the World is a real location, temporary but hardly random. It also a place that cannot be accessed openly without the Final Keyhole, I would say that constitutes a "specific location".

I'm sorry, did you just call a giant door, a place?

No, I said the End of the World is. I did not say anything about the DTD being a place. Please stop putting words into my mouth.

Considering the nature of the Heartless and the End of the World as well as their correlations to the Realm of Darkness

What does this even mean?

End of the World is a place where worlds that have lost their hearts to darkness end up, Heartless are hearts that have fallen into darkness the Realm of Darkness is the smurfing Realm of Darkness. It makes sense the entryway to the Realm of Darkness would be a place plunged into darkness...

I can't see the DTD opening anywhere else in the KH universe.

But you did, and you can't just go "nu-uh, it's only supposed to open in one place by this one method in KH1!"

The door that appears before the Xemnas fight is never called the DTD nor does it even resemble the DTD from KH1. It is only said to lead to KH, not the Realm of Darkness where KH lies, which in context of the scene would most likely refer to the moon in the sky. So yeah... the true DTD did only appear in one place.

If it appeared in the World That Never Was, Xehanort's Heartless could just pluck KH out of the sky

KH didn't appear in TWTNW.

Yeah it does... The KH made from the Hearts of Men is obviously right above the Headquarters of ORG. XIII its obviously only a dozen yards away if you watch the scene carefully. Since The World That Never Was is not actually in the Realm of Darkness and since we never witness Xemnas summoning KH to TWTNW it seems pretty certain that the KH of Men exists in TWTNW.

...that makes the first game seem retarded and a waste of time since KH can be down the street...

...which could only be accessed by collecting several billions of hearts...

Which took them a little over a year to do Besides, you once again miss the context of my point which is that the KH of Worlds that resides in the Realm of Darkness can not be reached from the Realm of Light or World In-Between without the DTD.

No, KH is magically in the World That Never Was that is in the In-between Realm. Yes, its close to the Realm of Darkness but its still stated by Nomura to not be a direct part of the Realm of Darkness.

In this quote, made up lies. At this point, I shouldn't even bother continuing until you show me the actual evidence.

No, you just don't pay attention...

Light (as in Realm of Light) < Yen Sid's Tower < Twilight Town > Castle Oblivion > World that Never Was > Dark (Realm of Darkness)

These worlds are referred to as the Worlds In-Between cause they don't exist in the Realm of Light or Darkness. They have influences due to proximity but its not part of either Realm. Stating that any of these worlds belong to Light or Darkness would be like saying Twilight (as in time) is definetly night when its called Twilight for a reason. There is no point in giving it a name like In-Between if its one or the other. My whole argument you've been ignoring is that TWTNW is a separate world that is not part of the Realm of Darkness so how can anyone in TWTNW affect thing in the Realm of Darkness. Its like looking across the border and saying you can affect what goes on over their with the power of your mind.

Also, the Dark Coastline is stated by Nomura to be the "tip of the world" and the dividing line between the In-Between Worlds and the Realm of Darkness, which means that the In-Between Worlds are not located in either realm which means I'm not lying.

The Major error comes from the simple fact that this World, stated to be specifically in the Realm of In-Between by the creator, can freely access the Realm of Darkness.

Lol, no. Xemnas didn't go to KH in the Realm of Darkness. He made KH come to him, in TWTNW. Notice that after you defeat Chair Xemnas 1, you're right back in TWTNW.

We'll start talking when you start backing up your claims. Once again no, refernce of summoning or anything, he ask his KH to give him power and disappears into his KH.

Even after beating Xemnas, Sora and Riku find themselves at the dark coastline which is stated by Nomura to still not be a part of the Realm of Darkness but as close as you can get. Between the In-Between World and the Realm of Darkness

They never went to the Realm of Darkness during the battle with Xemnas, so I don't see your point.

Way to answer without reading my post. My point is that they never go to the Realm of Darkness, the KH they visit is exclusively in TWTNW and is separate from the KH of KH1 which is located in the Realm of Darkness. Until you start backing up your claims, its obvious that Xemnas never came in contact with the KH of the Realm of Darkness.

Once again, how can Xemnas and Org. XIII interact with a KH in an In-Between World when it is stated to be in the Realm of Darkness and there is a clear dividing line between this world and that realm?

Xemnas and the Org never went into the Realm of Darkness, the Hearts did. And once again, the KH of men is not in TWTNW.

Yeah it is, you could spit on it since its on top of the castle, which is in an In-Between World, which is not located in the Realm of Darkness, which is where the Heart of Worlds version of KH exists. Which Xemnas never summons to him with the KH of Men that you say isn't right in front of him since Xemnas is in an In-Between World and never visited the World of Darkness...

Yes, KH forms in the Realm of Darkness, World That Never Was is not part of the Realm of Darkness, yet KH forms in this World no less. Thank you for proving this inconsistency.

There's just one little problem with what you said. That it's wrong.

But I'm not.

XH believed KH true nature was darkness... I would say he cared about the whole package since he believed KH to be darkness.

And the difference is that Xemnas cared about specifically the entire power of hearts, whereas XH only cared about the darkness that happens to come from hearts.

Which XH thought was all the power since he didn't believe in the light and he knows the hearts are power. They both wanted the same thing. The Director's Report even confirms this.

[QUOTE]

I'm also curious to know where you came up with Xemnas' plan to combine the Hearts of World with the Hearts of Men since I don't remember him ever stating such a grandiose plan nor do I remember Saix saying anything like that, even the quote above simply refers to Hearts returning to darkness and forming KH which is something stated more or less in KH1. Is this another reference to 358/2?

I can see why that post is somewhat confusing. Saix didn't say that Xemnas combined the two, but he did say that Xemnas made the KH of men. But again, if you remember that Ansem the Wise blew a huge hole into KH, and Xemnas said that he'll needed to "start all over again" and then told the Keybladers to "bring him more hearts" obviously his KH of men got ruined and started raining hearts. But he still managed to absorb KH's power, the KH of World's power that is.

Um no... he absorbed the remains of his broken KH he never said anything about absorbing the KH of Worlds nor do we even see this happen. The whole scene pretty much points to him absorbing his own KH of Men. He's sitting their pleading with his KH talking about how he'll rebuild it. He never mentions going to the Heart of Worlds and absorbing it. You are just misinterpreting the whole scene.

When your party defeats Xemnas in his own KH, he talks about how he needs more Hearts, I would think that if he absorbed two KH, he wouldn't need more hearts (he probably should have won if he was that powered up). Its obvious he's referring only to his broken KH. He never absorbed KH of Worlds.

No, because it disagrees with its own metaphysics stated by the creator. As I said, he states worlds are separate, forces the player through hoops to overcome these basic rules of the game universe and then turns around and has the villains break all the rules yet never explain how they did.

-The pathways created in KH2 were for Sora only.
-Villains use Dark Corridor hax.

Yes, they can use the Corridors of Darkness, but you are saying Xemnas can manipulate KH from outside of the Realm of Darkness where you say both KH lie. This goes against the metaphysics of the KH universe cause the Barriers exist to prevent worlds from interfering with each other or contacting outside of it. The World That Never Was, has a barrier and it was only accessible by way of COD. Once again you are saying Xemnas can manipulate objects outside his realm of influence despite a barrier existing to prevent this kind of stuff from happening.

[Ouch!]

We don't even know what Maleficent has been doing for the last ten years or how long she has been trying to gather the Princess of Hearts. For all we know, she could have started a few months before KH1 began. Until Birth By Sleep we won't know. As for Org. XIII, it took 9 years for a new Keyblade master to appear, it took them little over a year to amass enough hearts for them to create a artificial KH. Yeah, its pretty easy to do when you've got the tools to pull it off.

Trailers have shown that in Birth by Sleep Maleficent is already beginning her search for the Princesses of Heart. She talks to Terra about them in depth. I'm not going to address anything else, since I don't want to put much stock in the Director's Secret Report until that stuff is explained in-game. While a lot of it makes sense for explaining things, it needs more fleshing out before I'm willing to base arguments around it.

[PuPu]

So wait, Wolf Kanno's quoting Maleficent doesn't count as it being a place/location? Or how about the fact that the you go through the door created by the worlds at the end of KHII, a door that quite obviously leads you into KH where Xemnas is?

KH ends up "inside Xemnas" with the whole "becoming one with" thing. Inside a person isn't a "place," inside your mind is also not a place (Sora vs. Xemnas at "Memory Skyscraper")

The mere fact of "going to" KH means that it is a location that you can go to. The last fight begins inside KH that has been manipulated by Xemnas.

Not really. You're saying that you're "going inside a cluster of hearts." Remind me of this the next time I go into a location called "a pile of leaves."

Why can't this be inside KH? Yes, it is a space manipulated by Xemnas who has the power of KH but that does not mean it cannot be inside KH. Furthermore, you earlier compared the merger of Xemnas and KH to that of Nobodies and their owners. And we agree that the door created by the worlds is like the DTD: it leads to KH. So if KH is "inside Xemnas" as it is according to you, and you go through the door to KH, logic indicates that you are not only inside Xemnas but also in KH since the two are one in the same.

If you consider going inside a person as a place, fine. But again, this doesn't even matter anymore since as I've said "KH is not a world, so it doesn't have barriers like the other worlds."

I think I should state this clear for you, both me and Wolf are not saying that KH is a world like Neverland, TWTNW, or whatever, we are merely stating that it is a place, a location. If I recall correctly, Wolf had said so himself earlier and now I am saying so too.

KH isn't a world, so it doesn't have world barriers. I don't need to argue this anymore.

Or it could be that it all was the KH of Men and it was partially destroyed and what remained was absorbed? Nothing says that couldn't be a possibility except for you though there is no concrete proof to say the two were merged in the first place.

I don't think you understand the difference between "partially destroyed" and "ruined," which is what Xemnas said.

Also, if the KH of Men is in the Realm of Darkness, which is the logically conclusion since you are saying it is not in TWTNW, then that means Xemnas is pretty fricken strong since he is influencing the hearts to gather and form KH of Men, since their natural inclination is to return to their body or to suspend (according to the Director's Secret Report).

Yeah, if Xemnas can make re-direct hearts away from bodies, I don't see why he can't re-direct them to the Realm of Darkness, a specific place.

Also, there is the problem of basic metaphysical placement if the KH in KHII is not in TWTNW but in the Realm of Darkness yet the Dark Coastline where Riku and Sora are at the end of KHII overlooks the Realm of Darkness. So in one case we have the Realm of Darkness "above" (in the sky) the Realm of Twilight, but in the other they are side by side. Am I the only one who thinks this is inconsistent?

You're trying to question the physics of video games? Seriously.

Technically its not even an official world of In-Between

Who the hell says it has to be a world? It's just some random place in the realm of In-Between.

You completely missed the point of my statement. The world's are seperated by Barriers, The World That Never Was is an In Between World, so its barrier should prevent people to freely move in and out of it without the aid of a Gummi Ship or a Corridor of Darkness.

What point? Sora and friends got to TWTNW with a Dark Corridor that Axel made, and Xemnas and the Org never even went to the Realm of Darkness (except for temporarily when they use Dark Corridors).

Technically, reaching Kingdom Hearts from TWTNW should be impossible

Xemnas didn't go to KH.

and the idea of summoning KH to a world outside of the Realm of Darkness

Why not? Barriers are for preventing people from crossing into worlds. KH is a bunch of hearts.

has never once been stated to happen in any of the games.

But it did just happen in KH2, regardless of whether or not it happened before.

Proof? He never once said anything about bringing KH of Worlds to him with the KH of Men.

Because...Xemnas absorbs KH without ever going to the Realm of Darkness. He was in TWTNW when he absorbed KH. It's really not that hard to understand.

You're making stuff up since you have yet to once bring real evidence to say he did this.

Oh, irony.

In KH? Yes it is. If a massive amount of Hearts leads to the creation of Heart the size of a small moon then yes its a place. A single rock may not be a place but when you get a few billion together to form a single object its a place.

Again, there's no point in arguing the definition of "place." KH isn't a world, so it doesn't have any world barriers around it, and that's all we need to know.

We don't even know what Maleficent has been doing for the last ten years or how long she has been trying to gather the Princess of Hearts. For all we know, she could have started a few months before KH1 began. Until Birth By Sleep we won't know.

Someone hasn't read up on Birth By Sleep info. Just because you don't know something, doesn't mean that it's false, like you're assuming in this entire debate.

As for Org. XIII, it took 9 years for a new Keyblade master to appear,

Mickey says "hi."

it took them little over a year to amass enough hearts for them to create a artificial KH. Yeah, its pretty easy to do when you've got the tools to pull it off.

They've still been trying to accomplish this goal for 10 years, what with Organization XIII was also being responsible for turning billions of people into Heartless in order to gather the billions of hearts that they needed. And you're acting as if Sora/Roxas were the only ones responsible for gathering all of the hearts that Xemnas used to create the KH of men.

This is completely baseless conjecture, we know very little about the Realm of Darkness so its impossible to say whether it would be difficult to find it in the KH universe.

We've seen how big the Realm of Light is, so that gives us a good sense of how big a realm is in the KH universe. Sora has actually went to the Realm of Darkness several times and saw nothing but completely blackness.

Considering the biggest hurdle for all the villains in the series is actually getting into the Realm of Darkness

Dark Corridors...

I would say its probably not that hard to find it once you get there as XH found out the hard way.

What do you mean? He only knew where it was because gathering the 7 Princesses caused it to be revealed.

No, I said the End of the World is. I did not say anything about the DTD being a place. Please stop putting words into my mouth.

Doesn't even matter. You're not in EoTW anymore by the final series of battles, and neither is the DTD.

End of the World is a place where worlds that have lost their hearts to darkness end up, Heartless are hearts that have fallen into darkness the Realm of Darkness is the smurfing Realm of Darkness.

End of the World is where fragments of a world end up because of the Heartless. The rest of that world ends up swallowed by darkness, meaning the world gets sent to the Realm of Darkness.

It makes sense the entryway to the Realm of Darkness would be a place plunged into darkness...

You're not in EoTW anymore in the final series of battles.

The door that appears before the Xemnas fight is never called the DTD nor does it even resemble the DTD from KH1. It is only said to lead to KH, not the Realm of Darkness where KH lies, which in context of the scene would most likely refer to the moon in the sky. So yeah... the true DTD did only appear in one place.

Fine, it isn't the DTD. But to say that the DTD can only be opened in that one place, by that one method, is still taking a shot in the dark.

The KH made from the Hearts of Men is obviously right above the Headquarters of ORG. XIII its obviously only a dozen yards away if you watch the scene carefully.

Guess what's also a few dozen yards away? That's right, the Realm of Darkness, where KH is standing in, like the game says.

Since The World That Never Was is not actually in the Realm of Darkness and since we never witness Xemnas summoning KH to TWTNW it seems pretty certain that the KH of Men exists in TWTNW.

We see that Xemnas was in TWTNW when he was fusing with KH, and we know that he didn't go to the Realm of Darkness...so yeah, he made KH come to him.

Which took them a little over a year to do

Which they've been working on since BBS...

Besides, you once again miss the context of my point which is that the KH of Worlds that resides in the Realm of Darkness can not be reached from the Realm of Light or World In-Between without the DTD.

Again, what point? Xemnas didn't go to the Realm of Darkness anyways in order to get KH to fuse with him.

No, you just don't pay attention...

No, you're just a liar when you said "Nomura said KH isn't in the Realm of Darkness."

My whole argument you've been ignoring is that TWTNW is a separate world that is not part of the Realm of Darkness so how can anyone in TWTNW affect thing in the Realm of Darkness. Its like looking across the border and saying you can affect what goes on over their with the power of your mind.

It seems you're the one that's not paying attention. He can affect things that aren't in the same realm as him. After all, he was in TWTNW (Realm of In-Between) the entire time whenever he re-directed a heart of a Heartless killied by Roxas or Sora in the Realm of Light. Hell, even Maleficent managed to drag Sora into the Realm of Darkness after she herself Dark Corridor'd away to the Realm of Darkness. If Xemnas can re-direct hearts in the Realm of Light while he's in TWNTW, who the hell says he can't affect hearts when they go into the Realm of Darkness, which is also a separate realm from what he's in.

Seriously, at this point, I can tell that you have no idea what you're talking about.

which means I'm not lying.

The part you lied about was "Nomura said that KH is not in the Realm of Darkness."

We'll start talking when you start backing up your claims. Once again no, refernce of summoning or anything, he ask his KH to give him power and disappears into his KH.

His KH of men was ruined by Ansem's machine. So what other KH did he absorb? The non-ruined one, the KH of worlds, that's in the Realm of Darkness. But since he didn't actually go to the Realm of Darkness, and since he and Sora's gang were in TWTNW the whole time, yeah.

Way to answer without reading my post. My point is that they never go to the Realm of Darkness,

This is the only part where you're right.

the KH they visit is exclusively in TWTNW and is separate from the KH of KH1 which is located in the Realm of Darkness.

But it isn't. Even Saix said that the hearts that Org13 collected were gathering in darkness, and then said that those hearts combine together to form the KH of men.

Until you start backing up your claims, its obvious that Xemnas never came in contact with the KH of the Realm of Darkness.

How ironic, considering you're the one going "Look! KH is so close to TWNTW, it must be in TWTNW!" Even though the game says that both KH's are in the Realm of Darkness.

Seriously, you could also see Destiny Islands from Traverse Town and Yen Sid's tower is a train ride away from Twilight Town, but they're all still separate from each other.

Yeah it is, you could spit on it since its on top of the castle, which is in an In-Between World, which is not located in the Realm of Darkness, which is where the Heart of Worlds version of KH exists. Which Xemnas never summons to him with the KH of Men that you say isn't right in front of him since Xemnas is in an In-Between World and never visited the World of Darkness...

The only part of this entire mess that's right is that TWNTW isn't in the Realm of Darkness. We know that the KH of worlds is in the Realm of Darkness, and Saix also said that Xemnas was weaving together the hearts that they collected, that happen to be in the Realm of Darkness.

And the KH of Men is right in front of him...sitting in the Realm of Darkness, which TWTNW is extremely close to.

Which XH thought was all the power since he didn't believe in the light and he knows the hearts are power. They both wanted the same thing. The Director's Report even confirms this.

You were wrong about "what Nomura said" so I want to see the actual part that you're reading.

Um no... he absorbed the remains of his broken KH he never said anything about absorbing the KH of Worlds nor do we even see this happen. The whole scene pretty much points to him absorbing his own KH of Men.

Remains? He used the words "I'll have to start [collecting hearts] all over again." If that doesn't say "totally destroyed..."

He's sitting their pleading with his KH talking about how he'll rebuild it.

Refer to: "because it was totally destroyed."

He never mentions going to the Heart of Worlds and absorbing it. You are just misinterpreting the whole scene.

He never directly says "I'm absorbing the KH of men" either, in this case. Seriously, the whole "it is never said" stuff that you're doing is totally weak.

When your party defeats Xemnas in his own KH, he talks about how he needs more hearts

...because he needed hearts for his KH of men, that was destroyed.

I would think that if he absorbed two KH, he wouldn't need more hearts (he probably should have won if he was that powered up).

He didn't absorb both KHs. One was destroyed by Ansem, so there was only one left by process of elimination.

Yes, they can use the Corridors of Darkness, but you are saying Xemnas can manipulate KH from outside of the Realm of Darkness where you say both KH lie.

He was able to manipulate the Hearts that Roxas and Sora gathered from the Realm of Light while he was in TWTNW, outside the Realm of Light. What exactly is the problem?

This goes against the metaphysics of the KH universe cause the Barriers exist to prevent worlds from interfering with each other or contacting outside of it.

Dark Corridors > World barriers

The metaphysics of KH also say that Dark Corridors can give World Barriers the middle finger.

The World That Never Was, has a barrier and it was only accessible by way of COD. Once again you are saying Xemnas can manipulate objects outside his realm of influence despite a barrier existing to prevent this kind of stuff from happening.

Yeah, because we know that he was able to manipulate hearts in the Realm of Light while he was in TWTNW the entire time, and we saw him do so. Once again, Dark Corridors say "**** you" to the barriers.

[Wolf Kanno]

So wait, Wolf Kanno's quoting Maleficent doesn't count as it being a place/location? Or how about the fact that the you go through the door created by the worlds at the end of KHII, a door that quite obviously leads you into KH where Xemnas is?

KH ends up "inside Xemnas" with the whole "becoming one with" thing. Inside a person isn't a "place," inside your mind is also not a place (Sora vs. Xemnas at "Memory Skyscraper")

Yet, Sora was physically taken there seeing as how everyone was looking for him

Hearts have what appears to be a physical form and since Heartless are corrupted heart and they are also pretty damn physical, I think you need to readjust your thinking on this...

The mere fact of "going to" KH means that it is a location that you can go to. The last fight begins inside KH that has been manipulated by Xemnas.

Not really. You're saying that you're "going inside a cluster of hearts." Remind me of this the next time I go into a location called "a pile of leaves."

Yes, cause they apparently have a physical property to them. Ansem had them in glass cases in his lab so obviously you can collect them, meld them, and give them form. You may not go to water (heart) but you certainly can go to the ocean (Kingdom Hearts). I wouldn't be thinking of Hearts in KH purely as New Age mumbo jumbo.

Not to mention Xemnas' KH was the size of a moon and it was only made up of Hearts of Men, if KH of Worlds is composed of the Hearts of Worlds and we are told from the Ansem Reports that these Hearts are huge, chances are Kingdom Hearts could easily be the size of a World if not larger. So it is a place.

I think I should state this clear for you, both me and Wolf are not saying that KH is a world like Neverland, TWTNW, or whatever, we are merely stating that it is a place, a location. If I recall correctly, Wolf had said so himself earlier and now I am saying so too.

KH isn't a world, so it doesn't have world barriers. I don't need to argue this anymore.

KH is never said not to be a world either and we don't know enough about KH since the player never actually interacts with it to say how the rules apply to it. Besides, a world itself is a collection of hearts at its most basic level...

Or it could be that it all was the KH of Men and it was partially destroyed and what remained was absorbed? Nothing says that couldn't be a possibility except for you though there is no concrete proof to say the two were merged in the first place.

I don't think you understand the difference between "partially destroyed" and "ruined," which is what Xemnas said.

I don't think you grasp the concept of:

Xemnas: Oh its ruined... Now I can't be a god... guess I'll settle for Demi-god and start again from there.

Just because its ruined doesn't mean it can't have a use or be salvaged for other goals. It just means he can't use it for its original intention.

Also, if the KH of Men is in the Realm of Darkness, which is the logically conclusion since you are saying it is not in TWTNW, then that means Xemnas is pretty fricken strong since he is influencing the hearts to gather and form KH of Men, since their natural inclination is to return to their body or to suspend (according to the Director's Secret Report).

Yeah, if Xemnas can make re-direct hearts away from bodies, I don't see why he can't re-direct them to the Realm of Darkness, a specific place.

What's to say Xemnas only redirected them to him in TWTNW? Hearts gather in Darkness yes, but that doesn't mean they specifically go to the Realm of Darkness and if they did, Xemnas could easily just stop them from passing into the realm. If he's calling the hearts to him, why let them travel to the Realm of Darkness in the first place? He could just as easily trap them at the border and make them into his own Artificial Kingdom Hearts in TWTNW. Oh wait... he did.

Besides, if Xemnas could pull KH of worlds from the Realm of Darkness, why bother making the KH of Men now? He could have easily turned himself into a near god by bringing KH of Worlds to him, release the Heartless into the Realm of Light, absorb all the hearts that the Keyblade wielders set free if not even being strong enough to reduce everything to heart if its within his power and gone on with his plan of remaking the universe. Your "theory" on the end game events do not any make sense from this perspective. If he had the power to do it himself, why bother going through the whole business of making an artificial KH? He could have absorbed KH ten years ago and be god by now.

Technically its not even an official world of In-Between

Who the hell says it has to be a world? It's just some random place in the realm of In-Between.

Its treated as a World in KH1 and if Yen Sid's castle can be world and Winnie the Pooh's book can be a world, who is to say this isn't? Its obvious the term "World" in KH is ill defined.

Technically, reaching Kingdom Hearts from TWTNW should be impossible

Xemnas didn't go to KH.

Bringing it to him is also ridiculous and implausible. It never happened.

and the idea of summoning KH to a world outside of the Realm of Darkness

Why not? Barriers are for preventing people from crossing into worlds. KH is a bunch of hearts.

We don't know enough about KH to say this is true.

has never once been stated to happen in any of the games.

But it did just happen in KH2, regardless of whether or not it happened before.

Except there is no proof...

Proof? He never once said anything about bringing KH of Worlds to him with the KH of Men.

Because...Xemnas absorbs KH without ever going to the Realm of Darkness. He was in TWTNW when he absorbed KH. It's really not that hard to understand.

He never summons the KH of Worlds though, he becomes one with his "ruined" KH and gets his ass kicked.

In KH? Yes it is. If a massive amount of Hearts leads to the creation of Heart the size of a small moon then yes its a place. A single rock may not be a place but when you get a few billion together to form a single object its a place.

Again, there's no point in arguing the definition of "place." KH isn't a world, so it doesn't have any world barriers around it, and that's all we need to know.

We actually don't know if KH is a world or not, its not defined as a world but its barely defined at all except for being a collection of hearts. We barely know anything about it to make proclamations like "its not a world". No one in the story has been to the true KH so we don't know what KH is actually like. We only have to go on Ansem and Xehnort's research as well as what King Mickey has said.

We don't even know what Maleficent has been doing for the last ten years or how long she has been trying to gather the Princess of Hearts. For all we know, she could have started a few months before KH1 began. Until Birth By Sleep we won't know.

Someone hasn't read up on Birth By Sleep info. Just because you don't know something, doesn't mean that it's false, like you're assuming in this entire debate.

Oh the irony...

As for Org. XIII, it took 9 years for a new Keyblade master to appear,

Mickey says "hi."

Donald,
Sorry to rush off without sayin' goodbye, but there's big trouble brewin'.
Not sure why, but the stars have been blinkin' out, one by one. And that means disaster can't be far behind. I hate to leave you all but I've gotta go check into it.
There's someone with a "key"-- the key to our survival. So I need you and Goofy to find him, and stick with him. Got it?
We need that key or we're doomed! So go to Traverse Town and find Leon. He'll point you in the right direction.
P.S. Would ya apologize to Minnie for me? Thanks, pal.
Signed - Mickey (From the beginning of KH1)

Oh yeah... Mickey's been fighting them Heartless for the last ten years. Seeing as he didn't realize they were invading the Realm of Light until the start of KH1.

They've still been trying to accomplish this goal for 10 years, what with Organization XIII was also being responsible for turning billions of people into Heartless in order to gather the billions of hearts that they needed. And you're acting as if Sora/Roxas were the only ones responsible for gathering all of the hearts that Xemnas used to create the KH of men.

You are assuming there were others. Yes, we get 6 more (for now) in BBS but they are not fighting Heartless and no one knows if they got a fairy tale ending in BBS.

Terra is a no show, Ventus is gone (SPOILER)but apparently in Sora and all that we know is left of Aqua is her armor sleeping under Ansem's secret research lab. We could only begin to wonder what happened to Master Xehanort, Vanitas, and Master Erauqs but considering none of them showed up to help or stop the Realm of Light being nearly destroyed twice makes the idea that they live to see the end of their games highly unlikely.

Even if there were more Keyblade wielders than we are aware of, the situations in KH1 and 2 are extreme enough you would think they would have made themselves known. If they were unaware, they stayed in their own worlds and thus had a much more limited contribution to Xemnas' plan. It still stands that Roxas and Sora were imperative to their plan and the reason they were able to nearly complete it. Also, as TSoL said earlier, the KH of Men doesn't even appear in TWTNW until Roxas joined in 358/2 so I feel its safe to say they could not even begin their operation until the Kingdom Key appeared in Destiny Island.

This is completely baseless conjecture, we know very little about the Realm of Darkness so its impossible to say whether it would be difficult to find it in the KH universe.

We've seen how big the Realm of Light is, so that gives us a good sense of how big a realm is in the KH universe. Sora has actually went to the Realm of Darkness several times and saw nothing but completely blackness

This is assuming the Realm of Darkness works like the Realm of Light...

Considering the biggest hurdle for all the villains in the series is actually getting into the Realm of Darkness

Dark Corridors...

Which is why they should not have wasted their time gathering Princess' and Hearts when they could just travel to KH. I mean, Mickey found Kingdom Key D in the Realm of Darkness and in very little time, why not find KH in the span of 10 years?

No, I said the End of the World is. I did not say anything about the DTD being a place. Please stop putting words into my mouth.

Doesn't even matter. You're not in EoTW anymore by the final series of battles, and neither is the DTD.

Then enlighten us all on where you were and where the DTD appeared. Please use in-game and source material references to tell us how you came to this conclusion as well.

The door that appears before the Xemnas fight is never called the DTD nor does it even resemble the DTD from KH1. It is only said to lead to KH, not the Realm of Darkness where KH lies, which in context of the scene would most likely refer to the moon in the sky. So yeah... the true DTD did only appear in one place.

Fine, it isn't the DTD. But to say that the DTD can only be opened in that one place, by that one method, is still taking a shot in the dark.

Until the official one appears again we won't know for sure.

The KH made from the Hearts of Men is obviously right above the Headquarters of ORG. XIII its obviously only a dozen yards away if you watch the scene carefully.

Guess what's also a few dozen yards away? That's right, the Realm of Darkness, where KH is standing in, like the game says.

No it isn't. Seeing as how the final battle with Xemnas starts with his Nobody Dragon Fortress breaking free a mile away from where KHoM was. Seeing as how Xemnas never went to the Dark Realm, he couldn't possible have attacked you from there. :rolleyes2

The only official border between the In-Between Worlds and Realm of Darkness is the Dark Coastline. Not that and just a few yards above CTNW. Xemnas formed his KH in TWTNW. We don't even see such a place like the Dark Coastline near The Castle That Never Was or the Dark City. Sora and Riku have to travel through a Dark Corridor to reach it. This tells me its farther away than we think.

Since The World That Never Was is not actually in the Realm of Darkness and since we never witness Xemnas summoning KH to TWTNW it seems pretty certain that the KH of Men exists in TWTNW.

We see that Xemnas was in TWTNW when he was fusing with KH, and we know that he didn't go to the Realm of Darkness...so yeah, he made KH come to him.

But we never see this, you are just assuming he did. He could have easily just made KH in his own world and merged with its broken remains... Which is what 99% of the KH community believes. I have never once seen a reference or interpretation from any source that says what you think happen as being true.

Which took them a little over a year to do

Which they've been working on since BBS...

By waiting for another Keyblade Master that took 10 years...

Besides, you once again miss the context of my point which is that the KH of Worlds that resides in the Realm of Darkness can not be reached from the Realm of Light or World In-Between without the DTD.

Again, what point? Xemnas didn't go to the Realm of Darkness anyways in order to get KH to fuse with him.

He didn't bring it to himself either. He just merged with his broken one in TWTNW.

No, you just don't pay attention...

No, you're just a liar when you said "Nomura said KH isn't in the Realm of Darkness."

You misinterpreted what I meant, I was talking about KH of Men is not in the Realm of Darkness, excuse me forgetting to differentiate my KHoM from KHoW.

My whole argument you've been ignoring is that TWTNW is a separate world that is not part of the Realm of Darkness so how can anyone in TWTNW affect thing in the Realm of Darkness. Its like looking across the border and saying you can affect what goes on over their with the power of your mind.

It seems you're the one that's not paying attention. He can affect things that aren't in the same realm as him. After all, he was in TWTNW (Realm of In-Between) the entire time whenever he re-directed a heart of a Heartless killied by Roxas or Sora in the Realm of Light. Hell, even Maleficent managed to drag Sora into the Realm of Darkness after she herself Dark Corridor'd away to the Realm of Darkness. If Xemnas can re-direct hearts in the Realm of Light while he's in TWNTW, who the hell says he can't affect hearts when they go into the Realm of Darkness, which is also a separate realm from what he's in.

We don't even know how he does this, for all we know he has a machine that is doing this or even The Castle That Never Was could be the antenna that attracts the Heartless. You are assuming this is caused by his power when there are other likely scenarios. Til you can give in-game proof he's directly controlling gathering of the Hearts with only his power, your argument is still on really shaky ground.

Seriously, at this point, I can tell that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Oh the irony...

which means I'm not lying.

The part you lied about was "Nomura said that KH is not in the Realm of Darkness."

KH of Man isn't in the Realm of Darkness, how do I know?
Kingdom Hearts II Tetsuya Nomura interview - Video Games Blogger

I'll skip to the important part...

For example, the heart-shaped moon in the previous game’s key visual showed up this time as the Kingdom Hearts. Did you think of doing this right from the start?
No, I didn’t. I asked Nojima-san (Nojima Kazushige) to write KHII’s scenario and in his scenario it was written that the Kingdom Hearts Xemnas created is “like a moon that floats in the World that Never Was.” When I read that, I thought “Oh, this can be connected!” (laugh) so I made it to look like the moon in the previous game’s key visual. The World that Never Was has the “Dark City” right from the beginning of the game’s development and since then its background is night. That’s why when Nojima-san wrote that Xemnas was creating Kingdom Hearts in the sky, coincidentally he wrote “it looks like a moon” but I thought it got connected by destiny. ~Tetsuya Nomura (Creator of Kingdom Hearts series)

Let me make this even more clear:
“like a moon that floats in the World that Never Was.” You can't beat evidence from both the creator and the scenario writer (the hack he is). As for Saix's speech, he only says Hearts gather in Darkness he never said the Dark Realm. Worlds can still have the property of darkness despite being neutral or light as evident by the countless hearts falling from the broken KHoM that become Heartless when they touch the floor of TWTNW.

Since KHoM is in TWTNW, it is highly unlikely that Xemnas has the power to summon KHoW from the Dark Realm cause once agin, if he had that power, why bother with Org XIII? Especially since we don't have any proof it was his power alone that summoned the Hearts to his world.

We'll start talking when you start backing up your claims. Once again no, refernce of summoning or anything, he ask his KH to give him power and disappears into his KH.

His KH of men was ruined by Ansem's machine. So what other KH did he absorb? The non-ruined one, the KH of worlds, that's in the Realm of Darkness. But since he didn't actually go to the Realm of Darkness, and since he and Sora's gang were in TWTNW the whole time, yeah.

[/QUOTE]

Yeah, he could absorb his broken one. He might not be a god but it could be more than enough to beat a bunch of kids with Keyblades and a talking rat, dog, and duck. Especially since his KHoM disappears after his first defeat from the party which is a pretty good hint to what really happened.

the KH they visit is exclusively in TWTNW and is separate from the KH of KH1 which is located in the Realm of Darkness.

But it isn't. Even Saix said that the hearts that Org13 collected were gathering in darkness, and then said that those hearts combine together to form the KH of men.

Yeah, Darkness, not Realm of Darkness, not that the End of the World, Hollow Bastion, and TWTNW don't count as worlds that have a powerful influence of Darkness. His comment is so vague, we could easily interpret it meaning that hearts will go to other Heartless since they are also Darkness. This one very vague line is pretty lousy proof of anything.

Until you start backing up your claims, its obvious that Xemnas never came in contact with the KH of the Realm of Darkness.

How ironic, considering you're the one going "Look! KH is so close to TWNTW, it must be in TWTNW!"

Nomura and Nojima agree with me.

Seriously, you could also see Destiny Islands from Traverse Town and Yen Sid's tower is a train ride away from Twilight Town, but they're all still separate from each other.

Um... no. Traverse Town is a completely different world from Destiny Island and not anywhere close to it. Otherwise, Sora would recognize it a little. Traverse Town, like EoTW, is a place created from remains of destroyed worlds by the heartless and where survivors of the Heartless invasion wind up when there worlds are destroyed as Secret Ansem Report 11 clearly states. If you are mistaking the town Kairi and Selphie are seen in from KH2, its just the coastal town next to Destiny Island. They are not two different worlds, its the town all the kids on DI actually live in.

Yeah it is, you could spit on it since its on top of the castle, which is in an In-Between World, which is not located in the Realm of Darkness, which is where the Heart of Worlds version of KH exists. Which Xemnas never summons to him with the KH of Men that you say isn't right in front of him since Xemnas is in an In-Between World and never visited the World of Darkness...

The only part of this entire mess that's right is that TWNTW isn't in the Realm of Darkness. We know that the KH of worlds is in the Realm of Darkness, and Saix also said that Xemnas was weaving together the hearts that they collected, that happen to be in the Realm of Darkness.

No, he actually says they do it themselves. He never said Xemnas was responsible.

"Pitiful Heartless mindlessly collecting hearts, and yet they know not the true power of what they hold. The rage of the Keyblade releases those hearts, they gather in darkness, masterless and free...until they weave together to make...Kingdom Hearts!" ~ Saix

Which XH thought was all the power since he didn't believe in the light and he knows the hearts are power. They both wanted the same thing. The Director's Report even confirms this.

You were wrong about "what Nomura said" so I want to see the actual part that you're reading.

I wasn't wrong, my grammar was off and even then I'm right about KHoM. As for XH and Xemnas...

X - KH's Ansem (Xehanort) seems to have thoroughly gotten rid of his own heart, but Xemnas (Xehanort) commanding Organization XIII is seeking a fresh heart. If I understand that in becoming a heartless and a nobody, they became 2 different people, would their minds then as well become separate? Also, the original Xehanort should have some memory loss but in the additional scenes this time there seem to be some questionable parts. Have his memories returned, or perhaps the memory loss itself was a lie?


In essence, the two are the same. However, they function under separate minds. Xehanort most certainly got rid of his heart, and at that time it's assumed a Nobody was born. The means of obtaining their goal is different due to the nature of Heartless and Nobodies. However. I think for both of them the desire "to become a complete existence" is the same. This time the new mysterious keyword "Xehanort's memories" is left behind. In the "Secret Ansem Report" that Ansem the Wise wrote and mysteriously left behind, there is a hidden secret that will have a big influence on KH. As for the contents of his memories and the present condition of them, I cannot reveal that just yet.

Xemnas wanted to rebuild the world as god, XH wanted to flood the world of Darkness and rule it as a god... Not much difference in my opinion. Their underlying motives are different but their goals achieve very similar ends.

Um no... he absorbed the remains of his broken KH he never said anything about absorbing the KH of Worlds nor do we even see this happen. The whole scene pretty much points to him absorbing his own KH of Men.

Remains? He used the words "I'll have to start [collecting hearts] all over again." If that doesn't say "totally destroyed..."

Once again, its not enough power to achieve his goal, it doesn't mean its was useless. KHoM is still swirling with power as he makes this declaration. His plans are ruined but it doesn't mean KHoM was useless for something else.

He's sitting their pleading with his KH talking about how he'll rebuild it.

Refer to: "because it was totally destroyed."

Only enough to screw over his goal of world domination. The thing still has some juice: watch swirling power emanating from the KHoM in the videos I unlinked. When he asks for help, both him and the KHoM are being enveloped together with power coming from KHoM. His whole dialogue is him pleading with the KHoM to give him power in exchange for him giving it more hearts.

"It seems we will have to start anew, ah, but know this: I will give you as many hearts as it takes."

"Lend me your power so we can be complete. The power to erase the fools that hinder us"

The last line is interesting to note cause how is Sora and Co. a hindrance to KHoW? Obviously he is talking to the broken KHoM which was hindered by Ansem and Co.

He never mentions going to the Heart of Worlds and absorbing it. You are just misinterpreting the whole scene.

He never directly says "I'm absorbing the KH of men" either, in this case. Seriously, the whole "it is never said" stuff that you're doing is totally weak.

His entire dialogue with KH is directed right at KHoM which he is facing. KHoM disappears after he is defeated by Sora and Co. the first time. How more obvious do you need to be to say he absorbed KHoM?

When your party defeats Xemnas in his own KH, he talks about how he needs more hearts

...because he needed hearts for his KH of men, that was destroyed.

Which would be completely retarded to say if he actually absorbed KHoW cause he would technically have the power that is the foundation of the universe of KH. You would think he wouldn't need KHoM at that point.

I would think that if he absorbed two KH, he wouldn't need more hearts (he probably should have won if he was that powered up).

He didn't absorb both KHs. One was destroyed by Ansem, so there was only one left by process of elimination.

Yes, they can use the Corridors of Darkness, but you are saying Xemnas can manipulate KH from outside of the Realm of Darkness where you say both KH lie.

He was able to manipulate the Hearts that Roxas and Sora gathered from the Realm of Light while he was in TWTNW, outside the Realm of Light. What exactly is the problem?

Because it defeats the entire purpose of making KHoM...

The World That Never Was, has a barrier and it was only accessible by way of COD. Once again you are saying Xemnas can manipulate objects outside his realm of influence despite a barrier existing to prevent this kind of stuff from happening.

Yeah, because we know that he was able to manipulate hearts in the Realm of Light while he was in TWTNW the entire time, and we saw him do so. Once again, Dark Corridors say "**** you" to the barriers.

[/QUOTE]

Except we don't know if it was all him or some other means...

Besides, he couldn't use the Dark Corridors to gather the Hearts since those passage ways can corrupt Hearts. They should all be turning into Heartless due to the corruptible nature of the CoD. We don't even know how Hearts travel when they are free from a Heartless. For all we know, they travel through another path unique to them to return to their original body.

[PuPu]

Yet, Sora was physically taken there seeing as how everyone was looking for him

It doesn't mean it's a place. When Roxas appeared in TWNTW, and Sora "disappeared" he didn't go to another place, he just went into his own mind. Same thing here.

KH is never said not to be a world either and we don't know enough about KH since the player never actually interacts with it to say how the rules apply to it.

This has got to be the weakest garbage that you've pulled in this entire debate. KH is never said to not to be [infinitely many different things] either, so you really don't get anywhere by saying this. Because we are told what KH IS, we are told at the same time everything that it is NOT.

Seriously, I can't believe you're saying that KH is a world by using "well nothing says I'm wrong." It's just too bad that if you've got nothing to say that you're right either.

Besides, a world itself is a collection of hearts at its most basic level...

Not even close.

Xemnas: Oh its ruined... Now I can't be a god... guess I'll settle for Demi-god and start again from there.

What a completely made up and baseless line that's only supported by your own, unsupported claims.

Just because its ruined doesn't mean it can't have a use or be salvaged for other goals. It just means he can't use it for its original intention.

ru·in

Total destruction or disintegration, either physical, moral, social, or economic. A cause of total destruction. The act of destroying totally.

From dictionary.com

Seriously, the "totally" part of destroyed is almost always included in the definition of "ruined."

What's to say Xemnas only redirected them to him in TWTNW? Hearts gather in Darkness yes, but that doesn't mean they specifically go to the Realm of Darkness

TWNTW = In-between, thus it =/= "Darkness"
Realm of Darkness = Darkness

Seriously, your arguments are getting weaker and weaker as I go down.

and if they did, Xemnas could easily just stop them from passing into the realm. If he's calling the hearts to him, why let them travel to the Realm of Darkness in the first place?

"Why?" doesn't really matter because you still have got nothing that says he pulled the hearts to TWTNW.

He could just as easily trap them at the border and make them into his own Artificial Kingdom Hearts in TWTNW. Oh wait... he did.

He could but, oh wait...you've got nothing that says he did.

Besides, if Xemnas could pull KH of worlds from the Realm of Darkness, why bother making the KH of Men now?

Because he used the KH of men to do so.

He could have easily turned himself into a near god by bringing KH of Worlds to him, release the Heartless into the Realm of Light, absorb all the hearts that the Keyblade wielders set free if not even being strong enough to reduce everything to heart if its within his power and gone on with his plan of remaking the universe.

Your hypothetical is meaningless when compared to what actually happened.

Your "theory" on the end game events do not any make sense from this perspective. If he had the power to do it himself, why bother going through the whole business of making an artificial KH? He could have absorbed KH ten years ago and be god by now.

He needed to KH of men to get to get the KH of worlds, because it's an alternate way from using the DTD.

Its treated as a World in KH1

No it isn't. Tell me, what is it called then?

if Yen Sid's castle can be world and Winnie the Pooh's book can be a world

Yen Sid's castle was said to be a world by the DSR, and 100 Acre Wood is a world because it has a Keyhole.

who is to say this isn't?

Because there's nothing that says it IS.

Its obvious the term "World" in KH is ill defined.

No it isn't. Even if it was, it doesn't give you the right to call whatever you want as a world.

Bringing it to him is also ridiculous and implausible. It never happened.

KH is in the Realm of Darkness as said by the game. Xemnas never went to the Realm of Darkness. Therefore, KH went to him. Just because you don't like HOW it happened doesn't mean that it DIDN'T happen.

We don't know enough about KH to say this is true.

This is basically 70% of your entire argument right here, and I can easily just say the same thing for almost everything you've said. Neither of us get anywhere by saying this.

Except there is no proof...

Except that the game says KH is in the Realm of Darkness, and since Xemnas didn't go to the Realm of Darkness, there's only one choice left.

He never summons the KH of Worlds though, he becomes one with his "ruined" KH and gets his ass kicked.

He becomes one with a "completely destroyed" KH?

We actually don't know if KH is a world or not, its not defined as a world but its barely defined at all except for being a collection of hearts.

It's not "barely defined" just because it doesn't fit your definition. That's like saying "KH isn't defined as a Heartless, so therefore it might be a Heartless." By telling us what it is, at the same time, we are told everything that it is ISN'T.

We barely know anything about it to make proclamations like "its not a world". No one in the story has been to the true KH so we don't know what KH is actually like. We only have to go on Ansem and Xehnort's research as well as what King Mickey has said.

Your entire argument of KH being a world is now basically reduced to a hypothetical, a possibility, based only on "well nothing says I'm wrong!"

Oh the irony...

What? Just because you're ignorant on the series and each installment doesn't mean that you're right.

Oh yeah... Mickey's been fighting them Heartless for the last ten years. Seeing as he didn't realize they were invading the Realm of Light until the start of KH1.

For smurf's sake, Mickey knew the Heartless were invading since BBS. Hell, the Ansem Reports of KH1 even mention him talking about the worlds being consumed by darkness with Xehanort.

You are assuming there were others. Yes, we get 6 more (for now) in BBS but they are not fighting Heartless and no one knows if they got a fairy tale ending in BBS.

I'm assuming there are others because we only see a few thousand keyblades when TAV fight MX and Vanitas. Obviously, tons of keyblades exist, it's not unreasonable to think that there can also be tons of Keyblade wielders too.

Even if there were more Keyblade wielders than we are aware of, the situations in KH1 and 2 are extreme enough you would think they would have made themselves known.

Mickey didn't make himself known. Nobody in KH1 knew he wielded a Keyblade.

If they were unaware, they stayed in their own worlds and thus had a much more limited contribution to Xemnas' plan.

It doesn't matter where you kill Heartless, just that you kill Heartless.

It still stands that Roxas and Sora were imperative to their plan and the reason they were able to nearly complete it. Also, as TSoL said earlier, the KH of Men doesn't even appear in TWTNW until Roxas joined in 358/2 so I feel its safe to say they could not even begin their operation until the Kingdom Key appeared in Destiny Island.

The only thing that proves is that he didn't begin to combine the hearts, not that there weren't any hearts.

This is assuming the Realm of Darkness works like the Realm of Light...

At least I have the Realm of Light to base what I believe. Yours is just "well we don't know, so therefore we can assume it's done the way I say without any proof needed at all."

Which is why they should not have wasted their time gathering Princess' and Hearts when they could just travel to KH.

Because they can't Dark Corridor themselves directly to KH, because they don't know where it is. That's why Maleficent said that the Princesses will reveal its location.

I mean, Mickey found Kingdom Key D in the Realm of Darkness and in very little time, why not find KH in the span of 10 years?

How does this even matter? It took Mickey the same amount of time as it took the villains of KH1.

Then enlighten us all on where you were and where the DTD appeared.

Well, you know that you were very close to the Realm of Darkness, but not actually in the Realm of Darkness. That's it.

Please use in-game and source material references to tell us how you came to this conclusion as well.

You can't even provide stuff that says that Sora was still in EotW.

No it isn't.

Remember how the chart on the DSR had TWNTW listed as the closest to Darkness? Yeah...

Seeing as how the final battle with Xemnas starts with his Nobody Dragon Fortress breaking free a mile away from where KHoM was.

The difference is that it has been stated many times that KH is indeed in the Realm of Darkness, whereas Dragon has nothing stated about it. But since we're going with "we never went to the Realm of Darkness" there's only one possibility left, that Dragon was in TWTNW.

The only official border between the In-Between Worlds and Realm of Darkness is the Dark Coastline. Not that and just a few yards above CTNW. Xemnas formed his KH in TWTNW. We don't even see such a place like the Dark Coastline near The Castle That Never Was or the Dark City

No it isn't. The Dark Coastline is ON the border, but not the entire border. The DSR also says TWNTW is on the edge of Darkness as well.

Sora and Riku have to travel through a Dark Corridor to reach it. This tells me its farther away than we think.

Because they went there from the Realm of Nothing, and that's...an entirely different realm.

But we never see this, you are just assuming he did.

What the hell? One of the videos you showed me did indeed show Xemnas being in TWTNW, right in front of KH.

He could have easily just made KH in his own world and merged with its broken remains... Which is what 99% of the KH community believes.

Merging with something "completely destroyed?"

Also, lol at the fake statistic.

I have never once seen a reference or interpretation from any source that says what you think happen as being true.

Let's see:
The game says KH is in the Realm of Darkness.
Saix said the KH of Men was forming in the Realm of Darkness.
Xemnas didn't go to the Realm of Darkness, yet still got KH while he was in TWTNW.

By waiting for another Keyblade Master that took 10 years...

Dude, we see Mickey in BBS with a Keyblade.

He didn't bring it to himself either. He just merged with his broken one in TWTNW.

"Merging with something 'completely destroyed'"

We don't even know how he does this, for all we know he has a machine that is doing this or even The Castle That Never Was could be the antenna that attracts the Heartless. You are assuming this is caused by his power when there are other likely scenarios.

But you're not denying that he DID do it. And no matter HOW he did it, all that matters is that it DID happen, meaning he can indeed affect hearts across different realms. Whether by his own power or something else doesn't matter. But it isn't hard to believe that it was his own power, what with that one scene in KH2 showing him actually clustering the Hearts and the fact that Nomura says Xemnas is the most powerful person in KH so far (even before he absorbed KH).

Til you can give in-game proof he's directly gathering the Hearts your argument is still on really shaky ground.

It really isn't shaky at all, since your entire argument against it is "the game doesn't directly tell you that you're right."

Oh the irony...

I'm not the one who's making most of my entire argument off of "well nothing says I'm wrong" and "well you weren't directly told to be right."

“like a moon that floats in the World that Never Was.” You can't beat evidence from both the creator and the scenario writer (the hack he is).

Hey, I can easily do what you're doing too.

"like a moon that floats in the World that Never Was."

"Like" as in, similar to, but not exactly [in TWTNW]. Destiny Islands is "like" a star that floats above Traverse Town. Yen Sid's Tower is "like" a train ride away from Twilight Town. The reality is though, DI and Traverse Town are separate, and so is YST and Twilight Town. And so is KH and TWNTW.

As for Saix's speech, he only says Hearts gather in Darkness he never said the Dark Realm.

He sure doesn't mean "TWTNW" when he says darkness. But again, you'd have to be pretty close minded to think that Darkness =/= Realm of Darkness.

Worlds can still have the property of darkness despite being neutral or light as evident by the countless hearts falling from the broken KHoM that become Heartless when they touch the floor of TWTNW.

The hearts didn't become Heartless. The hearts were re-stolen by the Heartless. And some of them didn't get stolen by Heartless because tons of Dusks also re-collected the hearts.

Since KHoM is in TWTNW, it is highly unlikely that Xemnas has the power to summon KHoW from the Dark Realm cause once agin, if he had that power, why bother with Org XIII?

Because he used OrgXIII to create the KH of Men, which he used to summon the KH of Worlds.

Especially since we don't have any proof it was his power alone that summoned the Hearts to his world.

After all other Org members were dead, after Ansem blew up his KH of Men, he told Sora and gang to get more hearts for him. Had they actually did go collect more hearts for him, he implied that he could still use the hearts that they could've collected, when the rest of the Org was dead.

You're getting nowhere with this "no proof" stuff.

Yeah, he could absorb his broken one. He might not be a god but it could be more than enough to beat a bunch of kids with Keyblades and a talking rat, dog, and duck.

Absorb something that he said was "completely destroyed?" Wat.

Especially since his KHoM disappears after his first defeat from the party which is a pretty good hint to what really happened.

The KHoM was completely destroyed by Ansem, though. As said by Xemnas himself. That was the KHoW that disappeared.

Yeah, Darkness, not Realm of Darkness, not that the End of the World, Hollow Bastion, and TWTNW don't count as worlds that have a powerful influence of Darkness.

TWTNW isn't darkness. The Realm of Darkness is Darkness.

Yeah, Darkness, not Realm of Darkness, not that the End of the World, Hollow Bastion, and TWTNW don't count as worlds that have a powerful influence of Darkness. His comment is so vague, we could easily interpret it meaning that hearts will go to other Heartless since they are also Darkness.

Everything you mentioned except TWTNW can be easily crossed off, since we know and see that the answers aren't even remotely close to everything else, based on what we see in the game. So you're left with:

Some in-between world = Darkness
and
The Realm of Darkness = Darkness

Yeah, kinda easy to tell who's got the better one here. Even if what I say isn't 100% certain, it's still undoubtedly better than yours.

This one very vague line is pretty lousy proof of anything.

Only if you don't bother paying attention to what actually happens in the game and the rest of what he says. Just because something isn't directly said about something, does not make it lousy.

Nomura and Nojima agree with me.

Not really. "Like" =/= total agreement.

Um... no. Traverse Town is a completely different world from Destiny Island and not anywhere close to it.

The point is, you're saying that you can see KH from TWNTW as a moon, but you can also see DI as star from TT. Yet DI and TT are separate, so is KH and TWTNW. I'm talking about when Donald says "Look! A star/DI went out!" What you thought wasn't even close.

No, he actually says they do it themselves. He never said Xemnas was responsible.

I can say that thread weaves together to form clothing, but that doesn't mean that it does it by itself. Xemnas being responsible is painfully obvious with that one scene where you see him clustering the hearts together.

Xemnas wanted to rebuild the world as god, XH wanted to flood the world of Darkness and rule it as a god... Not much difference in my opinion. Their underlying motives are different but their goals achieve very similar ends.

Yeah, I know they both wanted to become very powerful. Xemnas wanted KH, XH wanted Darkness of KH.

Once again, its not enough power to achieve his goal, it doesn't mean its was useless.

"Something completely destroyed isn't useless at all!"

KHoM is still swirling with power as he makes this declaration. His plans are ruined but it doesn't mean KHoM was useless for something else.

KHoW is swirling with power, KHoM was completely destroyed and useless.

Only enough to screw over his goal of world domination. The thing still has some juice

"I don't know what completely destroyed means!"

watch swirling power emanating from the KHoM in the videos I unlinked. When he asks for help, both him and the KHoM are being enveloped together with power coming from KHoM. His whole dialogue is him pleading with the KHoM to give him power in exchange for him giving it more hearts.

Sorry, but KHoM was completely destroyed. But if you replace every KHoM with KHoW, you've got a true statement.

The last line is interesting to note cause how is Sora and Co. a hindrance to KHoW? Obviously he is talking to the broken KHoM which was hindered by Ansem and Co.

"Hinder us" means that Sora and gang were going to kill Xemnas so that he couldn't merge, not that they were going to destroy KHoW. How can you not get something that simple?

His entire dialogue with KH is directed right at KHoM which he is facing. KHoM disappears after he is defeated by Sora and Co. the first time. How more obvious do you need to be to say he absorbed KHoM?

The KHoM was completely destroyed by Ansem. Xemnas even admitted that the KHoM was completely destroyed. How more obvious do you need to be to say that KHoM was gone?

Which would be completely retarded to say if he actually absorbed KHoW cause he would technically have the power that is the foundation of the universe of KH. You would think he wouldn't need KHoM at that point.

But there's 2 KH's. How is it retarded to want all and not just half? Just cause you don't like it, doesn't mean it's wrong.

Because it defeats the entire purpose of making KHoM...

The purpose of KHoM was to get KHoW, which he managed to do; Ansem was too late.

Except we don't know if it was all him or some other means...

At this point, I shouldn't even bother acknowledging these as a legitimate argument.

Besides, he couldn't use the Dark Corridors to gather the Hearts since those passage ways can corrupt Hearts. They should all be turning into Heartless due to the corruptible nature of the CoD.

You missed the part where they corrupt hearts after "extended use."

We don't even know how Hearts travel when they are free from a Heartless.

We see the the hearts disappear during that scene with Saix in Hollow Bastion. The only person who doesn't seem to know anything is you.

For all we know, they travel through another path unique to them to return to their original body.

...but they weren't. Because Xemnas was controlling the path of the hearts.