The Nature of Kingdom Hearts

[Wolf Kanno]

This has been bothering me for quite some time. Now its stated in the game that Kingdom Hearts is the world where all hearts originate from but there seems to be some conflict concerning what KH is actually like.

In KHI, the place was a dark world where the Heartless reside and possibly originate from. In KH2, its still a world of darkness but surprisingly looks like the World That Never Was.

Does KH reflect the heart of the one who seeks the door and opens it? I can see Ansem (Xehanort Apprentice) seeing KH as a world of darkness filled with Heartless and I can see Xemnas viewing it as a place of nothingness that all things begin and end as.

Master Xehanort in the Birth By Sleep Secret Trailer even has the ability to summon the door to Kingdom Hearts whatever it may appear as in that game. So my question is, am I missing something here or am I on to something...

[RedPouch]

I guess I won't know until I play the new KH game, but it sounds like normal inconsistencies that a lot of games/series like this have. It certainly wouldn't be the first time. This is why I'm always pleasantly surprised when a story of any kind manages to stay extremely consistent and includes a large degree of connection.

[Tavrobel]

Except the problem here is that those "inconsistencies" were already explained away. We could reasonably figure that when the worlds got reset by Sora in the first game, its form got reset as well. Notice how in the first game, it was oozing darkness and infested with Heartless until Sora was all like "ZA WARUDO" and KH decided to turn on all of its lights.

My leaning is that you're onto something, but it's largely unimportant, unless Mister Master Man's ability affects how KH is perceived by those who get close. If it does matter, then noticing means something. If not, then it just gives us an in-universe explanation for a possible designer oversight that can be applied after the fact. Either way, insignificant unless shown to be otherwise.

Not that we should discourage any sound theory based on evidence and a little bit of rationality.

[Marshall Banana]

Don't pay attention to anything that succeeds the original game! Kingdom Hearts has become a convoluted mess!

It's been a while since I played the original game, but I remember Kingdom Hearts being light. Ansem thought that it was all-powerful darkness or something, but it's not.

[Tavrobel]

Kingdom Hearts has become a convoluted mess!

Not really.

Your argument is invalidated anyways, since KHII is part of the canon of the universe. It's not like we can whisk away the second game just because we want to. This isn't FFX-2, KHII wasn't horrible or shameful, it was actually an excellent entry into the series.

Additionally, you would have noticed that my post already covered the idea that KH is nothing but light. But if it must be explained further, it's more likely that KH is whatever it needs to be. If it is the Heart of the World, and the World changes, then the Heart must be whatever it has to be to sustain the operation of the World.

[Wolf Kanno]

Except the problem here is that those "inconsistencies" were already explained away. We could reasonably figure that when the worlds got reset by Sora in the first game, its form got reset as well. Notice how in the first game, it was oozing darkness and infested with Heartless until Sora was all like "ZA WARUDO" and KH decided to turn on all of its lights.

I can't really buy into this though. Yes, Sora restored the worlds but it doesn't explain how KH became the way it is in KH2 since the door wasn't even open to it until the very end so the world becomes a realm of darkness again despite the Heartless not being present in the world.

My leaning is that you're onto something, but it's largely unimportant, unless Mister Master Man's ability affects how KH is perceived by those who get close. If it does matter, then noticing means something. If not, then it just gives us an in-universe explanation for a possible designer oversight that can be applied after the fact. Either way, insignificant unless shown to be otherwise.

Not that we should discourage any sound theory based on evidence and a little bit of rationality.

I'm just theorizing for the moment as I hope to see if we will learn more about KH in Birth By Sleep considering Master Xehanort was able to summon Kingdom Hearts and he is supposedly the last known Keyblade Master.

I do feel I am onto something. If Kingdom Hearts is the place where all hearts are from, wouldn't it make since it would appear different to people to reflect their own hearts that came from there? (Course Xemnas might throw a monkey wrench into that one...).

Don't pay attention to anything that succeeds the original game! Kingdom Hearts has become a convoluted mess!

It's been a while since I played the original game, but I remember Kingdom Hearts being light. Ansem thought that it was all-powerful darkness or something, but it's not.

Its not that badly convulated, most of the real bullcrap in KH2 was there purely for dramatic purposes and doesn't heavily affect the main story whatsoever with the exception of Xehanort/Ansem/Xemnas stuff... I think we can still move on, especially since Chain of Memories is still the most superior entry in the series...

The other thing that's different from KH1 and 2 is the method of which KH is found. In KH1, its a place in the heart of darkness where destroyed worlds go to, whereas in KH2, Order XIII artificially creates the doorway (or world). Not to mention that the Birth By Sleep trailer suggests its possible to summon Kingdom Hearts with the keyblade...

[Marshall Banana]

Kingdom Hearts has become a convoluted mess!

Your argument is invalidated anyways, since KHII is part of the canon of the universe. It's not like we can whisk away the second game just because we want to.

In my mind, Ansem is still just the big baddie of the first game - not the student of the real Ansem who wears a disguise in KHII and does secret things while the Heartless of his student takes the name "Ansem," and his Nobody equivalent calls himself "Xemnas," because "Xemnas" is "Ansem" with an "x" added; and the original Ansem calls himself something else (can't remember what). What the heck? :kaodizzy:

Just the addition of Nobodies mucked up KHII, though. It's akin to Takahashi's constant addition of Naraku incarnations and weapon upgrades in Inuyasha in order to stretch/saturate the story until it became unbearable.

Basically, I feel that Kingdom Hearts doesn't deserve the amount of depth you guys are giving it.

[Wolf Kanno]

I feel the Nobodies and the depth they brought is the only redeeming quality of Kingdom Hearts at this point. The novelty of the project ended the day the first game shipped.

[Ouch!]

Just the addition of Nobodies mucked up KHII, though.

If you didn't see the addition of Nobodies coming long before even Chain of Memories came out (Another Side, Another Story had many hints to their existence), I don't really know what to tell you. Nobodies make a whole lot more sense than just about anything else Kingdom Hearts 2 added. That said, Xehanort's back story is not especially difficult to follow either, so I'm not quite sure what to say.

At any rate, I don't think anyone is trying to argue that Kingdom Hearts is in any way especially deep. It's really not. It only flirts with issues belying any amount of depth. However, I think you're severely exaggerating how confusing it is.

[Tavrobel]

I do feel I am onto something. If Kingdom Hearts is the place where all hearts are from, wouldn't it make since it would appear different to people to reflect their own hearts that came from there? (Course Xemnas might throw a monkey wrench into that one...).

Its not that badly convulated, most of the real bullcrap in KH2 was there purely for dramatic purposes and doesn't heavily affect the main story whatsoever with the exception of Xehanort/Ansem/Xemnas stuff... I think we can still move on, especially since Chain of Memories is still the most superior entry in the series...

The other thing that's different from KH1 and 2 is the method of which KH is found. In KH1, its a place in the heart of darkness where destroyed worlds go to, whereas in KH2, Order XIII artificially creates the doorway (or world). Not to mention that the Birth By Sleep trailer suggests its possible to summon Kingdom Hearts with the keyblade...

It could take on the particular personas of the original person in question. It could be that KH's form is dependent on the person currently carrying favor. A Heartless (pure Darkness) would cause KH to take on a form in which it is a void. A Nobody, who flirts with both Darkness and Light, could cause KH to be a twilight. An Unbirth could cause it to be whatever philosophical quandry they decide to give it this time.

Approved.

But, there's no evidence to suggest that any worlds were destroyed in the timeframe of KHII. KHI is far more malicious in its treatment of the universe than KHII is. Since there was no one who was around to deal with the destruction of the worlds in the first game, many worlds suffered with definite consequences. In the second, Sora was already well accomplished in the task of saving worlds. The time from the end of CoM to the beginning of II was only a year; in the first game, it seemed to be much longer a process, and the new timeline gives it anywhere from ten to sixteen years. It's not inconceivable that several of the worlds visited could easily have been destroyed had Sora not arrived in the first place.

We can also consider the character attempting to access KH. Ansem D was brutally evil, and wanted to obtain more power. Xemnas just wanted something of his back. In a sense, it's the method of obtaining power and what the intentions of using it were for. Ansem D was selfish through and through. Xemnas was willing to do evil in order to accomplish what he thought would end the suffering of those who were like him (ultimately what can be considered a "good" act).

Basically, I feel that Kingdom Hearts doesn't deserve the amount of depth you guys are giving it.

This sure as hell ain't Dante's Inferno. I can't write a book on Kingdom Hearts. What I can write a book about is anything Tolkien. Remember that this is Disney: it's superficially deep. In fact, it's rather simple to understand. People are made of three different parts, and when something goes haywire with one of them, happens. This isn't higher order differential equations. I don't have to compute any Wronskian matrices.

[Marshall Banana]

If you didn't see the addition of Nobodies coming long before even Chain of Memories came out (Another Side, Another Story had many hints to their existence), I don't really know what to tell you. Nobodies make a whole lot more sense than just about anything else Kingdom Hearts 2 added. That said, Xehanort's back story is not especially difficult to follow either, so I'm not quite sure what to say.

Regardless of whatever in-game logic justifies Heartless spin-offs, more Keyblade masters, and multiple identities, they bring me nothing but pain. Like Inuyasha.

[Tavrobel]

Well, your first problem is that you're watching Inuyasha, which means you like furries, which means you like Baloki.

Therefore, your argument is invalid via Baloki. It's not a logical fallacy, no matter how hard you try to make it so. It just makes you wrong.

[Ouch!]

An Unbirth could cause it to be whatever philosophical quandry they decide to give it this time.

Perhaps a bit of a side note, but they're apparently called Unversed now (Nomura says it was a poor translation; more like he changed his mind) and they somehow spawn from negative emotions.

Regardless of whatever in-game logic justifies Heartless spin-offs, more Keyblade masters, and multiple identities, they bring me nothing but pain. Like Inuyasha.

There's a difference between disliking something and it not making sense. The only type of justification necessary (and probably the only kind of justification that matters at all) is the in-game logic which explains it. Just because you don't like the direction it's taken hardly makes it a convoluted mess.

Like Tav said, though. Kingdom Hearts like all Disney-involved stories (and all Nomura-created stories!) is superficially deep. It's also pretty easy to follow. I'm just baffled as to how anything that has been added since Kingdom Hearts I is so difficult to grasp that it's outright rejection.

[Del Murder]

Maybe if you are used to watching a lot of anime then this story is tame, but by Disney standards it's pretty complicated.

I guess I'm in the minority with Banana of those who thought it got a lot more confusing after KHI. Don't get me wrong, I liked it, but at many times during the game I got a 'huh?' moment.

[Ouch!]

Maybe if you are used to watching a lot of anime then this story is tame, but by Disney standards it's pretty complicated.

Any story by Disney's standards is pretty complicated.