Modern Warfare 2 + Spoilers

[Bolivar]

Oh, that. You're right about "maybe others", it goes back to the first Call of Duty campaign (and probably their first game, Allied Assault) and all I'm going to say is that the opening of the Soviet campaign got the point across to me much more than Enemy At the Gates or any other movie about that event could do. Of course, we all know this is something that goes back to the first Half-Life.

I honestly don't see any correlation, though. I know what their style is. It has no bearing on what's going on here. I'm really not sure what there could be more to it to make it seem any different than it already seems.

All I'm going to say is I am going to give them the benefit of the doubt, I probably will play it and render a final verdict then. Not sure if I'll stick around to join Rocket Edge's proposed clan, though.

[Old Manus]

ITT people try to justify (SPOILER)pointlessly shooting civilians in a mothertrucking airport as 'emotional set pieces'.

Infinity Ward is just trying to boost sales with the inevitable media coverage. There's no underlying moral truth that we must all step back and ponder at here. I think it's pretty disgraceful. They're worse than Rockstar.

[Madame Adequate]

CoD4 was the most anti-war FPS I have ever played. These guys are clever and they know not only how to make a good game, but how subvert good game design and really smurf with you.

I imagine plenty of people will take the position that this is for sales and attention, and maybe it is. In my eyes though, games are going to be what Bolivar said, "There's a million and one mediums and methods to get that message across, but video games are probably the most juvenile and ineffective way to do it." unless and until they do do things like this.

It's entirely possible that this is baseless exploitation and utterly meritless. I am inclined to think it isn't, because I'm so impressed with how they did CoD4, but I do acknowledge the possibility. However, I think that the more likely outcome is that it's a genuine attempt to say and do something new, and whilst we should be ready to criticize it if it fails, at least they have the balls to try.

[Slothy]

CoD4 was the most anti-war FPS I have ever played. These guys are clever and they know not only how to make a good game, but how subvert good game design and really smurf with you.

I don't think I could agree with you more MILF, but I'll ellaborate on some of my thoughts. I definitely agree that COD4 was very anti-war given that the closest we got to a bunch of good guys in the game were a team of SAS and Marines who stopped a bunch of nukes. Of course, these were the same Marines who went heavy handed into a nameless middle eastern country (and if anyone can't see the parallels then I pity them), and the same SAS who executed prisoners when they got the information they needed.

No side in that game was exactly standing on moral high ground; you just had evil bastards and less evil bastards who are on our side.

I imagine plenty of people will take the position that this is for sales and attention, and maybe it is. In my eyes though, games are going to be what Bolivar said, "There's a million and one mediums and methods to get that message across, but video games are probably the most juvenile and ineffective way to do it." unless and until they do do things like this.

I definitely agree with you here, and strongly disagree with Bolivar. In fact, that kind of attitude makes me glad that Bolivar isn't involved in developing games. The idea of games as a juvenile medium bothers me because many people are as mistaken in that regard as they are when they think that comic books are a juvenile medium that can't handle mature topics well. They've been doing it for literally decades and there is no reason that video games can't in this stage of their development as a medium. The idea that video games would be outright inneffective at conveying a message through some very mature themes and events is a joke. I think they're better able than any other medium to convey this kind of message given the immersive quality video games have. They don't have to just talk at you with some message, they can put you in the middle of it and let you see it for yourself.

And as far as doing this just for more sales; no one accused Saving Private Ryan of just trying to sit more butts in the theatre when it effectively conveyed how terrible D-Day was. Given Infinity Wards work on COD4, I definitely would not be one to write this off as a sales grab before seeing it in context. They're better than that.

This is kinda the reason why I've got sick of play FPS games altogether. The FPS genre has sought to glamorize war as of late & the COD are especially guilty of this. The better that graphics become the more these games games become like VR simulations. If your willing to pull the trigger on something that looks 99% real & feel no remorse then your type cast immediate for some proxy war. GTA is harmless cartoon Tom & Jerry type violence but FPS's like COD focus on realism i.e. making needless murder look glamorous.

Not sure quite where to start with this one. You're argument that people who can pull the trigger with no remorse in a realistic video game are suited to kill someone in an actual war is laughable. It assumes that people can't differentiate between reality and a video game which isn't true for the vast majority of the adult population. And if, somehow, a large segment of the population couldn't tell that what they were doing was just a game and not real, then they'd have the same problem with games like GTA, making the "cartoon Tom & Jerry type violence" anything but harmless.

Games like COD4 do anything but glamorize the violence if you ask me. Yes it is a large portion of the game, but they took great pains to show just how dirty a business war is. Like I said above, there were no heroes in that game, and they even included scenes like lining people up against walls and executing them at the beginning of the game. They went to great lengths to show that what was happening in the game wasn't good. It wasn't all necessarily evil since some of the things that happen are necessary just as they are in real life, but none of what you did was portrayed as being heroic exactly (with the possible exception of stopping the nukes, but given how reprehensible it is to even think about nukes being fired at another country I don't think anyone would say that all of the violence committed to stop them wouldn't be justified even in the real world).

[Dreddz]

While totally shocking for that piece of footage to appear in a video game, it doesn't really offend me. I'm glad there are developers who don't feel the need to tip toe around sensitive topics. People talk about how video game stories need to grow up and I think this is a nessesary step in achieving that. And I'm sure within the context of the games story it won't seem that shocking. Who's to say this footage will even appear the way it is in the final game anyway. The release is still a ways off. Some shaky footage taken from a someones bedroom isn't exactly the most legit source of information.

And Activision can kiss it if they expect me to buy MW2. I'm not paying £55 for a 4-5 hour single player campaign. I don't care how good COD4's campaign was (and it most definitely was good) there are better things I can spend my money on. I didn't even dig the multiplayer in COD4.

[JKTrix]

YouTube - Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 - Teaser

"Remember, you're Russian." (about 1:08 in)

As far as spending money, this is the next game I'll be renting after Tekken. I agree with not paying however much money for a fixed-length single player game and a multiplayer mode I don't care about, particularly since my cash is really limited.

I'm glad there's someone who is more intimate with the franchise than I am who can 'defend' it a little better than I can. Really, we can't pass judgement on it without getting the whole story. That's not quite what I want to happen here, though.

This will hit the mass media. People will judge it out of context (regardless if there is any justifying context within the game or not). You will hear about it elsewhere. I hope to get at least some discussion going beforehand, so if a 'normal person' comes to you as a gamer and says 'How 'bout that Terrorism simulator Call of Duty?' you potentially have something more constructive to say than 'I dunno, I don't play that.' Whichever way you feel about it.

*goes back to paying attention in class*

[Shattered Dreamer]

Vivi22 I respect your opinion but as usual we don't agree I agree with the sentiment expressed in Act 3 of MGS4, FPS are being used to make a new generation of children okay with murder as long as your doing it in a uniform or in the name of country . Just because COD puts on a negative spin on war doesn't mean its not engaging in glamorization. Bad publicist is sometimes better than good publicist in the eyes of the mass media. I'm probably still gonna play at least once but regardless they've gone too far & I'm sure there are more people who agree with Rocket Edge & myself!

[Slothy]

Vivi22 I respect your opinion but as usual we don't agree I agree with the sentiment expressed in Act 3 of MGS4, FPS are being used to make a new generation of children okay with murder as long as your doing it in a uniform or in the name of country . Just because COD puts on a negative spin on war doesn't mean its not engaging in glamorization. Bad publicist is sometimes better than good publicist in the eyes of the mass media. I'm probably still gonna play at least once but regardless they've gone too far & I'm sure there are more people who agree with Rocket Edge & myself!

Once again I'm going to point out as JKTrix has that you really can't say they've gone too far at this point since you haven't seen the scene in the context of the game. Nothing that built to that moment is in the trailer so without the context to really show how it's being presented, vilifying the game for it is premature.

And I definitely disagree about COD4 glamorizing war. Like I said before, COD4 showed war for what it is; a dirty despicable thing where there are no heroes and a lot of people end up dying, and not just the bad guys. Hell, at the very end of the game, the majority of the "good guys" are executed by the main antagonist as they lie helpless on a bridge. COD4 does nothing to glamorize war and violence that we haven't seen in countless TV shows, war and action movies, or other games which actually do glamorize war and violence by not showing any of the negative consequences. If anything, given the fact that almost every character in COD4 dies a very non-glamorous death by the end, it does quite the opposite of glamorizing war.

[Old Manus]

I'm glad there are developers who don't feel the need to tip toe around sensitive topics.

Dude, we're talking about the game requiring you to gun down dozens of unarmed civilians in cold blood. There are so many other ways to avoid tip toeing around the subject. If it was a cutscene or something then I wouldn't be too bothered, but this is absolutely, entirely unnecessary. The only logical reason for its existence is to create controversy. Watching that video makes me feel sick.

[Dreddz]

Dude, we're talking about the game requiring you to gun down dozens of unarmed civilians in cold blood. There are so many other ways to avoid tip toeing around the subject. If it was a cutscene or something then I wouldn't be too bothered, but this is absolutely, entirely unnecessary. The only logical reason for its existence is to create controversy. Watching that video makes me feel sick.

The fact that this footage makes you feel sick speaks volumes about the power behind it. Becoming emotionally involved in a game is something people overlook and is the key reason why games are still seen as kids entertainment. I think people need to see the bigger picture and see the beneficial aspects of what Infinity Ward are trying to do with MW2 and how they are shaping the future of video game storytelling. Video games have an advantage over traditional forms of storytelling such as movies and books as you feel a closer connection with the story if you are the one shaping it, and I'm glad that at least one developer has realised this.

[Shattered Dreamer]

Dude, we're talking about the game requiring you to gun down dozens of unarmed civilians in cold blood. There are so many other ways to avoid tip toeing around the subject. If it was a cutscene or something then I wouldn't be too bothered, but this is absolutely, entirely unnecessary. The only logical reason for its existence is to create controversy. Watching that video makes me feel sick.

The fact that this footage makes you feel sick speaks volumes about the power behind it. Becoming emotionally involved in a game is something people overlook and is the key reason why games are still seen as kids entertainment. I think people need to see the bigger picture and see the beneficial aspects of what Infinity Ward are trying to do with MW2 and how they are shaping the future of video game storytelling. Video games have an advantage over traditional forms of storytelling such as movies and books as you feel a closer connection with the story if you are the one shaping it, and I'm glad that at least one developer has realised this.

It's because of this emotional investment needless slaughter of civilians is never okay regardless of the context!

[Dreddz]

It's because of this emotional investment needless slaughter of civilians is never okay regardless of the context!

Then I guess you are banging at Rockstar's doors condemning them for what they have done with the GTA series and State of Emergancy games. Those examples are much worse as they are treating the deaths of innocent people as a joke with no consequences. Infinity Ward are not at any point saying that killing these people is right. They are making you feel terrible about it, and in a way are probably going to deter people from doing these types of acts. Which is exactly the opposte of what the media is going to be telling us in a few weeks when the really hits the fan.

[Rase]

Just don't fire your gun at the unarmed folks if you don't wanna. Problem solved.

[Slothy]

Just don't fire your gun at the unarmed folks if you don't wanna. Problem solved.

I had been thinking on the topic a little more since my last post and realized this as well. I really doubt that the game will force you to shoot any of the civilians during that section (in fact I'm willing to bet on it), leaving the choice up to the player though the impact of such a scene where you're in the middle of it likely won't be lessened.

Also, I was going to rip into Shattered Dreamers last post because I strongly disagree with the double standard he's preaching and think he and some others here are missing the point some of us are making by miles, but Dreddz said it far more tactfully than I might have. If killing innocent people in media is wrong regardless of context then you really can't say it's ok in GTA because they make a joke of it. That's literally the most absurd thing I've ever heard. Give me a game that makes you feel the gravity of what's happening over one that makes it a joke please, because the one that really makes you realize the horror of what's happening is doing something right and is up there with other works like Saving Private Ryan in my books. What we're probably going to see when MW2 comes out is a real maturation of video games as a vehicle for story and messages like this, and I welcome it.

Oddly enough, I find it funny that people feel this is going to far, but I doubt anyone in this thread would stop and think twice about innocent people being slaughtered in a movie and say it went too far if it conveys the right message and the gravity of the situation.

[Bolivar]

I definitely agree with you here, and strongly disagree with Bolivar. In fact, that kind of attitude makes me glad that Bolivar isn't involved in developing games. The idea of games as a juvenile medium bothers me because many people are as mistaken in that regard as they are when they think that comic books are a juvenile medium that can't handle mature topics well.

That isn't fair. I've already stated how games specifically like Far Cry 2 and even the original Call of Duty can successfully and powerfully convey such messages using the perspective technique you guys are discussing. Everyone who knows me here knows I love MGS, especially MGS4; the way it conveys messages and makes the player think is one of the pillars of why I play the games.

You're setting up a really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking. and I'm offended at you brushing off the fact that I recognize video games are (and believe they should) emerging as a recognized form of art and storytelling. I've said in nearly every post that I'm going to give Infinity Ward the benefit of the doubt and play the game, yet you're oblivious to it.

Old Manus hit the nail on the head of what I'm saying. There's a million ways to get that message across, and there will always be things that are in bad taste. MGS4 got the message of contemporary warfare across probably better than gunning down civilians in an airport ever will (sorry, I guess the cat's out of the bag).

And yes, I feel we disagree that there is a difference between this and GTA. There's a multitude of reasons for that and I'll reserve it to another post if necessary, but my first one in this thread pretty much sums it up.