Let's discuss Cloud's main love interest: Aerith or Tifa

[Elly]

i never got "flirty" out of Cloud as i played him cool & cold the way Bigs, Wedge, & Barret keep sugesting his personality is in the beginning of the game... i feel if you play it like that, telling Aerith to go home and such, you're playing closer to what the other characters percieve of his personality... his personality was set up by the perceptions of the other characters you interact with from the start, playing it any other way (i.e. flirting with Aerith) is just injecting a bit of your own desires into the character, even if they are the wrong choices you're still allowed to make them for your own enjoyment of the game... the flirty choices are the choices Zack would have made and let's not forget Cloud did take on a bit of Zacks personality there for a while... oh and by playing by that philosophy i always got the Tifa Date...

[silentenigma]

In the original 1997 game, it appeared that Cloud's love interest was somewhere between "completely ambiguous" and "kinda leaning toward Aeris."

Is anyone going to tell me why they say this XD

And could you please tell me what retcons you're referring to? I did not see any, but yes I agree SoS's essay on the subject was excellent. He really knows his stuff.

But since 2005 or whatever with the coming of the FFVII: Retcon Edition series, there have been major, if not overwhelming implications towards Tifa being Cloud's love interest.

I concur.
I look forward to hearing back from you and Melissaur.

A few things come to mind that seemed to give Aeris an slight edge in the game... like the ending and the fact that Aeris starts out with 20 more love points than Tifa in the dating mechanics. I'm pretty sure in his article SoS does address these points. Also with the highwind scene at the end of Disk 2... since there is a high affection version and a low affection version for Tifa, i don't really consider either of them as canon or very indicative of Cloud's 'true' love interest.

But I'm sure that in 10 pages everyone's already brought up all of that stuff... I'm not going to bother reading it all.

And about the compilation being full of retcons and ruining the integrity of the original... That's for an entirely different discussion, but it's true. And I say that in a general sense; there's not to my knowledge any retcons in the compilation that completely 'undo' the cloudxaeris moments of the game.

[Ryushikaze]

A few things come to mind that seemed to give Aeris an slight edge in the game... like the ending and the fact that Aeris starts out with 20 more love points than Tifa in the dating mechanics.

Which reflects on Aerith, not Cloud, since the AV decides who takes action.

I'm pretty sure in his article SoS does address these points. Also with the highwind scene at the end of Disk 2... since there is a high affection version and a low affection version for Tifa, i don't really consider either of them as canon or very indicative of Cloud's 'true' love interest.

The 'high' version only was listed an an important scene in the story of FF7 in the 20th Ani Ultimania Scenario book. It is canon.

But I'm sure that in 10 pages everyone's already brought up all of that stuff... I'm not going to bother reading it all.

And about the compilation being full of retcons and ruining the integrity of the original... That's for an entirely different discussion, but it's true.

Horribly overstated. There are a few retcons, but hardly as many as people keep whinging about.

And I say that in a general sense; there's not to my knowledge any retcons in the compilation that completely 'undo' the cloudxaeris moments of the game.

Which are?

[Shishikabob]

like the ending and the fact that Aeris starts out with 20 more love points than Tifa in the dating mechanics.

Well she comes in later you know :P And the fact that they start her with so many really says something to me, and it's not "She's Cloud's true love"

[silentenigma]

A few things come to mind that seemed to give Aeris an slight edge in the game... like the ending and the fact that Aeris starts out with 20 more love points than Tifa in the dating mechanics.

Which reflects on Aerith, not Cloud, since the AV decides who takes action.

Well she comes in later you know :P And the fact that they start her with so many really says something to me, and it's not "She's Cloud's true love"

I really don't think the reason that Square gave Aeris 20 extra points was because they were expecting most of their audience to prefer Tifa and were compensating for it. Rather, they probably did so because they wanted the player to most likely get Aeris for the gold saucer date. I'm not saying that this this alone would make Aeris the primary love interest of the game, because it's just one date, and we all know that there's another good 20 hours left in the game after the first disk.

The 'high' version only was listed an an important scene in the story of FF7 in the 20th Ani Ultimania Scenario book. It is canon.

Ah, I guess it most likely is then.. But it seems like you probably didn't read my first post... it's on page one and pretty much explains that I'm not going to try and argue that cloudxaeris is canon. After all, as I have also said, the newer interviews and Compilation installments give a ton of evidence in favor of a romantic cloudxtifa relationship of some sort. So yeah, I'm really not just spamming cloudxaeris.

Horribly overstated. There are a few retcons, but hardly as many as people keep whining about.

I really do believe that there are, and I do believe that the compilation has ruined the integrity of the original game. (But like I said, getting into specifics would be for a different discussion, though there's no way I'm going to start that thread.) Therefore when I judge pretty much anything about FFVII, I do so based solely on what we had in 1998 - the original game. This includes who I consider to be Cloud's main love interest, among other things. Now I know most people here disagree with this approach to FFVII...I remember how you guys tore some user named Charcoal to shreds a couple years ago for "living in the past" like I do. But I just would like to offer an alternative perspective on things.

And I say that in a general sense; there's not to my knowledge any retcons in the compilation that completely 'undo' the cloudxaeris moments of the game.

Which are?

It is undeniable that there are both cloudxaeris moments and cloudxtifa moments in FFVII. I just said that mostly because I didn't want to seem like I am against the compilation just because it specifically retcons the cloudxaeris moments in the game, which it does not.

By the way, is there anyone up for debating what the game's ending indicates about Cloud's feelings? I'm certainly not in the mood to, but I would like to see someone address it at some point.

[The Man]

Yeah, I'm just here to point out that silentenigma has evaded Ryushikaze's question and has not listed a single one of these supposed CloudxAerith moments in Final Fantasy VII.

[Shishikabob]

I really don't think the reason that Square gave Aeris 20 extra points was because they were expecting most of their audience to prefer Tifa and were compensating for it.

I didn't mean to imply this... I meant that they did it because she came later in the game and needed to balance her out with Tifa.

It is undeniable that there are both cloudxaeris moments and cloudxtifa moments in FFVII.

While I agree Aerith and Cloud seemed to have good chemistry... and they probably had feelings, I have yet to see something that can be used as absolute CxA evidence. Can you please at least give me one (non optional)?

Oh hi Aaron, you and I thought the same thing

[Loony BoB]

The 20 extra points is based on one thing, I'm sure: The mechanics. They might have done some game testing and found that it was very difficult at the start to get an Aeris date based on their starting points, possibly due to there being more opportunities to hit on Tifa or do things with Tifa than there were with Aeris. The 20 points can't be used as any kind of evidence whatsoever, it's nothing more than what you pointed out it was: "Game mechanics". How many did Yuffie and/or Barret start with? 0 as well as Tifa? Does that mean that they are just as much a love interest of Cloud as Tifa is? No? Well, there you have it.

Ahaha, I also noticed the question evasion.

[Ryushikaze]

I really don't think the reason that Square gave Aeris 20 extra points was because they were expecting most of their audience to prefer Tifa and were compensating for it. Rather, they probably did so because they wanted the player to most likely get Aeris for the gold saucer date. I'm not saying that this this alone would make Aeris the primary love interest of the game, because it's just one date, and we all know that there's another good 20 hours left in the game after the first disk.

They gave her a 20 point lead because otherwise Tifa would have led by 23 before you even met Aerith, to say nothing of Tifa's AV loop in ShinRa tower.
And again, the AV are irrelevant to Cloud. If they are anything but a game mechanic, they represent the opinion of the person towards Cloud, in a very limited sense.

Ah, I guess it most likely is then.. But it seems like you probably didn't read my first post... it's on page one and pretty much explains that I'm not going to try and argue that cloudxaeris is canon. After all, as I have also said, the newer interviews and Compilation installments give a ton of evidence in favor of a romantic cloudxtifa relationship of some sort. So yeah, I'm really not just spamming cloudxaeris.

I can completely ignore the compilation and still cogently argue the C/T case. I did so before there was a compilation. Only thing the compilation has done is give me specific facts. And you do misunderstand, this was not an interview or a compilation entry. It was the 20th Anniversay Ultimania, an overview of all the FF games of the past 20 years and their important characters and story elements. None of the additional compilation entries were included in the scenario section- though they were in the character section.

I really do believe that there are, and I do believe that the compilation has ruined the integrity of the original game. (But like I said, getting into specifics would be for a different discussion, though there's no way I'm going to start that thread.) Therefore when I judge pretty much anything about FFVII, I do so based solely on what we had in 1998 - the original game. This includes who I consider to be Cloud's main love interest, among other things. Now I know most people here disagree with this approach to FFVII...I remember how you guys tore some user named Charcoal to shreds a couple years ago for "living in the past" like I do. But I just would like to offer an alternative perspective on things.

... Outside of Nibelheim, WHAT RETCONS?
And again, I can, and have, argued using MERELY the original game and materials released around that time, to elucidate the C/T conclusion.
Lifestream sequence and Cloud's tender/precious and secret memories. Hearts calling out to each other. Cloud's 'So much to say/ no clue what to/ Nothing's changed' and Tifa's 'words aren't the only way' in response. Cloud fighting for a very personal memory, in reference back to the lifestream sequence. The butt touch and the general closeness to each other during the ending. The fact that the Promise is a key aspect of Cloud's personality, that falling and failing to catch someone is a repeated theme from nearly the beginning of the game and truly from the start of his tale when he fails to catch Tifa and this arc is closed by him saving Tifa from falling.
I can go on.

And I say that in a general sense; there's not to my knowledge any retcons in the compilation that completely 'undo' the cloudxaeris moments of the game.

Which are?

It is undeniable that there are both cloudxaeris moments and cloudxtifa moments in FFVII. I just said that mostly because I didn't want to seem like I am against the compilation just because it specifically retcons the cloudxaeris moments in the game, which it does not.

Evasion noted.
Concession will be accepted in three additional posts where you do not provide examples.

By the way, is there anyone up for debating what the game's ending indicates about Cloud's feelings? I'm certainly not in the mood to, but I would like to see someone address it at some point.

It indicates that he considers Aerith a dear friend, and he is sure Tifa would like to see her again, which is why Cloud comforts her with the plan to meet Aerith again in case the world goes tits up.

Addendum Re: AV starting numbers: Aerith 50, Tifa 30, Yuffie 10, Barret 0, to start. Are we to believe that Cloud likes Aerith and Yuffie before he even knows them? Are we to believe he 'likes Barret more' because he gives Marlene a flower?
Or does it make more sense for these values to reflect the attitudes of Tifa, Aerith, Yuffie, and Barret?

[Raistlin]

How many did Yuffie and/or Barret start with? 0 as well as Tifa? Does that mean that they are just as much a love interest of Cloud as Tifa is? No? Well, there you have it.

Obviously Sailor-Suit Barret was Cloud's true love.

[line_genrou]

I never got the feeling in the game that Cloud was ever in love with Aerith.What he expressed after her death,was like everyone else in the group,a loss of a great friend that had some kind of heroic death.

And seriously people,Cloud was so messed up,he didn't even know who he was,you really believe he fell in love with Aerith in that short period of time they were together and under those conditions?

[silentenigma]

They gave her a 20 point lead because otherwise Tifa would have led by 23 before you even met Aerith, to say nothing of Tifa's AV loop in ShinRa tower.
And again, the AV are irrelevant to Cloud. If they are anything but a game mechanic, they represent the opinion of the person towards Cloud, in a very limited sense.

While Tifa's AV loop can actually go either way (to either infinitely add or subtract from her score) I have reviewed the mechanics and you are right, it's pretty easy to rack up a high tifa score in the beginning. I took the 'average' point values for all the AV situations and they end up pretty even for Tifa and Aeris when the extra 20 points are added.

And you do misunderstand, this was not an interview or a compilation entry. It was the 20th Anniversay Ultimania, an overview of all the FF games of the past 20 years and their important characters and story elements. None of the additional compilation entries were included in the scenario section- though they were in the character section.

I know that the ultimania was just about the game, but due to the time of its release - and the fact that its character sections reference the compilation like you said - suggests that the scenario section could very well have been affected by the outlook of the compilation. After all, when put into perspective with the compilation (OtWtaS:CoT, Advent Children) the 'high affection' version is the only one that really makes any sense. It's logical that the ultimania, then, would reflect this.

... Outside of Nibelheim, WHAT RETCONS?

I'm glad you acknowledge Nibelheim, because while it may not be an issue for you, I have a big problem with how much it's been changed. And here's a quick list of just a few things from the compilation which retcon the original game or, in my opinion, undermine the original game in some way:

Crisis Core does most of the retconning:
(SPOILER)Cloud mimicking Zack due to his instruction to become Zack's "living legacy/proof of existence" rather than completely due to Jenova's cells taking advantage of his weaknesses.
Cloud being able to speek coherently BEFORE being found (and 'awakened') by Tifa on the streets of Midgar.
Cloud remaining hidden from Shinra troops, rather than the troops finding him and leaving him for dead.
Zack being the first to fall through the church roof in the slums, in the exact same spot as Cloud would later on. (Though there is no question the Cloud DID crash through the roof in FFVII unless we ignore the fact that he is found under the rubble and that he and Aeris suppose he survived because of it; Did the roof get fixed since Zack crashed through it? Who would fix an abandoned church in the slums? Are we to assume that there are two holes in the roof now?) I haven't played Crisis Core so I'm sure there are more.

Advent Children does most of the undermining:
(SPOILER)At the end of FFVII, when the party supposes that Sephiroth has been defeated, Cloud senses that there is remnant of him still present. He then fights an out-of-body battle to destroy all that is left of sephiroth, even in this abstract state of existence. There is no reason why there should still be remnants of Sephiroth floating in the lifestream, waiting for an opportunity to return to life and turn back into Sephiroth via Jenova.
Which brings me to Jenova: By the end of FFVII, all of Jenova's fragments (with the exception of cell extracts) had reunited, and Cloud & co. defeat "Jenova Absolute." By this time, there is no reason for Jenova as a specimen (or what they call its 'head') to still live on. But as revealed FFVII:AC, it turns out they actually didn't get the job done, with Jenova and with Sephiroth. So although it doesn't necessarily have 'retcons' in a proper sense, Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children effectively wrecks a lot of what is accomplished and established in the original game.

And again, I can, and have, argued using MERELY the original game and materials released around that time, to elucidate the C/T conclusion.

What are the materials from around 1997 which you've used?

Lifestream sequence and Cloud's tender/precious and secret memories.

This can plausibly be argued not to have been the basis for a romantic relationship, but rather to have been an event which took place between close friends who shared a closely connected past. Cloud's subconscious kept these tender/precious memories (which concerned Tifa's mother's death, Cloud and Tifa's fall from Mt Nibel, and Tifa's coma) hidden mostly due to past embarrassment of being blamed for putting the girl he liked in danger, when he had actually been trying to help her, and the detrimental affect this event had on the remainder of his childhood. EDIT: And although they served as his true original motivation to become a SOLDIER - wanting to transcend the other boys and get Tifa to notice him - these feelings didn't carry over into his present state. They were only a catalyst, and Cloud completely forgets about this original motivation for most of the game. Only the young boy deep within his consciousness remembers it.

Hearts calling out to each other. Cloud's 'So much to say/ no clue what to/ Nothing's changed' and Tifa's 'words aren't the only way' in response.

This is, of course, the high affection version. In the low affection version, Cloud does not acknowledge calling out to Tifa's heart, and nothing physical takes place between the two that night. The high affection version, if i'm not mistaken, has been considered canon only since the 2007 Ultimania.

Cloud fighting for a very personal memory, in reference back to the lifestream sequence.

At the end of Disk 2:

What are we all fighting for? I want us to understand that. Save the planet...for the future of the planet...Sure, that's all fine. But really, is that really how it is? For me, this is a personal feud. I want to beat Sephiroth. And settle my past. Saving the planet just happens to be a part of that. I've been thinking. I think we are all fighting for ourselves. For ourselves...and that someone...something...whatever it is, that's important to us. That's what we're fighting for. That's why we keep up this battle for the planet.

Cloud is NOT fighting for his memories of Tifa.

The butt touch and the general closeness to each other during the ending.

The "butt touch," if i get what you're referring to, was more of a touch to the back of his leg above the knee, to help/'make sure' Cloud was able to climb all the way onto the ledge. Even if she was tenderly/erotically touching his ass there (which it doesn't appear that she was) it only shows Tifa's affection for Cloud, not his affection for her.

The fact that the Promise is a key aspect of Cloud's personality, that falling and failing to catch someone is a repeated theme from nearly the beginning of the game and truly from the start of his tale when he fails to catch Tifa and this arc is closed by him saving Tifa from falling.

Still does not indicate a romantic relationship.

Evasion noted.
Concession will be accepted in three additional posts where you do not provide examples.

I answered the way that I did because I was short on time and I did not expect that you folks do not believe there is ANYTHING that REMOTELY suggests that Cloud MIGHT HAVE HAD affection for Aeris. Now I'm not saying that any one instance of the following offers all the proof that CloudxAeris was intended to be canon in the original game. At the most I'm trying to convey that the game either leaves it as ambiguous OR gives Aeris a SLIGHT edge. Here's a few non-optional scenes to consider:

Cait Sith's prediction: Although he was wrong about the two living happily ever after together, the context surrounding the prediction has CloudxAeris overtones: Cloud agrees to pose with Aeris as the prediction is made; "Interrupted by Fireworks," a sentimental tune, starts playing as soon as Cait Sith comes upon his prediction; Tifa, if in the party, becomes fed up and turns away jealously. (Why would she react this way if there was absolutely no reason to believe there was something between Aeris and Cloud at the time?)
Cloud's dream of Aeris in the sleeping forest: AerisxCloud implications are made when Cloud and Aeris fall slowly together to the ground, and when Cloud tries to run after Aeris as if 'pursuing her' and not wanting her to leave. I will concur, however, that there may be many different interpretations of this scene.
The Ending: Aeris' and Cloud's souls (or whatever you want to call their out-of-body existences) reach out to each other before Cloud snaps back into reality and into his own body.

An answer from the Planet...the Promised Land...I think I can meet her...there.

Here Cloud is obviously expressing a personal desire to meet Aeris and says that she can be found in the Promised Land, which we all know is a very personal place/state of mind. Therefore by saying "I can meet her... there", he makes it clear that: 1) He's not too concerned with Tifa or the others meeting her, and 2) he's planning on meeting with Aeris in a way which the others cannot. Now Tifa, surprised and/or taken by what Cloud has just said, responds with "Yeah, let's go meet her." She, not Cloud, is the one to apply his statement to herself and the others, since after all, Aeris is missed by everyone. Although it is a sentimental line, it is not said with the same level of depth as Cloud's line is, and it really doesn't seem to be what Cloud has in mind--Because when you put it all into perspective, Cloud sees meeting Aeris as something which is a significant part of, if not wholly in itself, his personal Promised Land. Also, Tifa's reaction to Cloud's line (both in her line and in her facial expressions) can be interpreted a couple of different ways: Either she 1) is very touched by Cloud expressing the significance of the dear friend she recently lost, or 2) she is becoming aware of who is truly on Cloud's mind, accepts it, and resigns from her pursuit of him, or 3) Both.

Of much greater significance, however, is Cloud’s line from the ending of the game about meeting Aerith again. Until the Compilation of FFVII came along, this line was seen by many Cleriths as the clencher that Cloud preferred Aerith, and by many Clotis and neutrals as the line that left things just ambiguous enough.

Though I would have once argued otherwise, looking at things more objectively today, I have to agree that this line left matters in the original game more in favor of Aerith than of Tifa. Due to the existence of the newer Compilation materials, however, that no longer holds true in the wider scheme of things.

As a critic of the Compilation & materials, I agree with SoS, that the ending tips the scale slightly in the direction of Aeris when looking only at the original game. Aside from that, I think the game is pretty ambiguous on the matter. A lot depends on how much weight you place on certain aspects of the game, really.

[Shishikabob]

Imma piss Ryu off and respond to you even though you were responding to him.

After all, when put into perspective with the compilation (OtWtaS:CoT, Advent Children) the 'high affection' version is the only one that really makes any sense. It's logical that the ultimania, then, would reflect this.

Would that not make it canon then?

Cait Sith's prediction:

Said by the creators to be BS in the Ultima Omega... or at least they called his predictions unreliable.

Cloud's dream of Aeris in the sleeping forest: AerisxCloud implications are made when Cloud and Aeris fall slowly together to the ground, and when Cloud tries to run after Aeris as if 'pursuing her' and not wanting her to leave. I will concur, however, that there may be many different interpretations of this scene.

What about Tifa and Cloud rising slowly out of the lifestream?... does that count for CxT then? And Cloud's chasing her probably to I dunno, apologize for beating the crap out of her. Or maybe to find out where she's going.

Did you notice when Cloud wakes up he does NOT want to go after her? His friend have to convince him to do so.

The Ending: Aeris' and Cloud's souls (or whatever you want to call their out-of-body existences) reach out to each other before Cloud snaps back into reality and into his own body.

And it was Tifa's hand that was really reaching for him, wasn't it? So how can that be CxA?

So, no none of those are really CxA...
I'll let Ryu do the rest... I'm tired XD

[silentenigma]

After all, when put into perspective with the compilation (OtWtaS:CoT, Advent Children) the 'high affection' version is the only one that really makes any sense. It's logical that the ultimania, then, would reflect this.

Would that not make it canon then?

Yes, it certainly is canon, but I'm not going for 2009 canon. I've been discussing a VERY alternate point of view since I do not accept anything after ~2003 (the Compilation) into my own personal continuity. This basically leaves us with the original game only.

Cait Sith's prediction:

Said by the creators to be BS in the Ultima Omega... or at least they called his predictions unreliable.

Well it's obvious that the prediction itself was BS, considering what happens... but I was talking moar about the atmosphere surrounding the scene.

What about Tifa and Cloud rising slowly out of the lifestream?... does that count for CxT then?

Yes it most certainly does. And like the forest scene, it can be interpreted a couple of ways and alone cannot be definitive support for anything.

And Cloud's chasing her probably to I dunno, apologize for beating the crap out of her. Or maybe to find out where she's going.

Your latter suggestion is definately the more valid interpretation; remember that I said there can be many different (non CxA) interpretations of this scene based on your leanings. However, he already did apologize for beating her earlier in the dream, and she did tell him where she was going. And when she turned to run off, since he was dreaming, he wasn't able to hold her back (shown by him reaching out) or follow her like he wanted (running without going anywhere).

Did you notice when Cloud wakes up he does NOT want to go after her? His friend have to convince him to do so.

Cloud, after he wakes up, is afraid he might end up killing Aeris or doing something terrible if he follows her. It is for this reason that he does not want to go, even though deep down, as shown by his hazy and abstract dream, he does want to follow her (for whatever reason).

And it was Tifa's hand that was really reaching for him, wasn't it? So how can that be CxA?

When Cloud snaps back into his own body, Tifa is frantically reaching out to him and shouting to him because he's in mortal peril and she's trying to awaken him and save him from falling into the lifestream. This situation is a far cry from the dream-like, idealistic moment he was having just seconds earlier, where Cloud and Aeris reached out to each other as if to be reunited. A lot of people also see the transition from Aeris' hand to Tifa's as symbolic of Cloud choosing Tifa over Aeris, and had Cloud not suddenly been thrust into a life-or-death situation, I'd probably agree. However, that's not the case.

[Ryushikaze]

While Tifa's AV loop can actually go either way (to either infinitely add or subtract from her score) I have reviewed the mechanics and you are right, it's pretty easy to rack up a high tifa score in the beginning. I took the 'average' point values for all the AV situations and they end up pretty even for Tifa and Aeris when the extra 20 points are added.

There's also an infinite Yuffie loop too.
But yes, even without the loop, Tifa can easily pull ahead just by being nice to her in the beginning and not favoring either girl afterwards.

I know that the ultimania was just about the game, but due to the time of its release - and the fact that its character sections reference the compilation like you said - suggests that the scenario section could very well have been affected by the outlook of the compilation. After all, when put into perspective with the compilation (OtWtaS:CoT, Advent Children) the 'high affection' version is the only one that really makes any sense. It's logical that the ultimania, then, would reflect this.

It was also featured in both Memorial Albums, which well predate the compilation.

I'm glad you acknowledge Nibelheim, because while it may not be an issue for you, I have a big problem with how much it's been changed. And here's a quick list of just a few things from the compilation which retcon the original game or, in my opinion, undermine the original game in some way:

Crisis Core does most of the retconning:
Cloud mimicking Zack due to his instruction to become Zack's "living legacy/proof of existence" rather than completely due to Jenova's cells taking advantage of his weaknesses.

That isn't a retcon. Cloud still BELIEVES he is Zack during this time because of Jenova's meddling. Zack's words don't influence this.

Cloud being able to speek coherently BEFORE being found (and 'awakened') by Tifa on the streets of Midgar.
Cloud remaining hidden from Shinra troops, rather than the troops finding him and leaving him for dead.

The previous version was a recollection by Cloud. It is prone to error.
Cloud being able to speak or not was not actually specifically mentioned one way or another, previously.

Zack being the first to fall through the church roof in the slums, in the exact same spot as Cloud would later on. (Though there is no question the Cloud DID crash through the roof in FFVII unless we ignore the fact that he is found under the rubble and that he and Aeris suppose he survived because of it; Did the roof get fixed since Zack crashed through it? Who would fix an abandoned church in the slums? Are we to assume that there are two holes in the roof now?) I haven't played Crisis Core so I'm sure there are more.

This also is not a retcon. This is just information you don't like. Zack falls through the roof in a different location. This hole is there in FF7.

Advent Children does most of the undermining:
At the end of FFVII, when the party supposes that Sephiroth has been defeated, Cloud senses that there is remnant of him still present. He then fights an out-of-body battle to destroy all that is left of sephiroth, even in this abstract state of existence. There is no reason why there should still be remnants of Sephiroth floating in the lifestream, waiting for an opportunity to return to life and turn back into Sephiroth via Jenova.
Which brings me to Jenova: By the end of FFVII, all of Jenova's fragments (with the exception of cell extracts) had reunited, and Cloud & co. defeat "Jenova Absolute." By this time, there is no reason for Jenova as a specimen (or what they call its 'head') to still live on. But as revealed FFVII:AC, it turns out they actually didn't get the job done, with Jenova and with Sephiroth. So although it doesn't necessarily have 'retcons' in a proper sense, Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children effectively wrecks a lot of what is accomplished and established in the original game.

In short, your retcons... aren't. They are things you personally did not like or made assumptions about that were shown to be false or unfounded.

What are the materials from around 1997 which you've used?

Memorial Album, a game script released from that time, which shows Tifa's date and the high highwind scene. In both versions.

This can plausibly be argued not to have been the basis for a romantic relationship, but rather to have been an event which took place between close friends who shared a closely connected past. Cloud's subconscious kept these tender/precious memories (which concerned Tifa's mother's death, Cloud and Tifa's fall from Mt Nibel, and Tifa's coma) hidden mostly due to past embarrassment of being blamed for putting the girl he liked in danger, when he had actually been trying to help her, and the detrimental affect this event had on the remainder of his childhood. EDIT: And although they served as his true original motivation to become a SOLDIER - wanting to transcend the other boys and get Tifa to notice him - these feelings didn't carry over into his present state.

Then why reaffirm them so?

They were only a catalyst, and Cloud completely forgets about this original motivation for most of the game. Only the young boy deep within his consciousness remembers it.

Cloud is not actually HIMSELF most of the game, and does not have access to the whole of his memories. And then later he believes himself to be a mere simulacra of the real Cloud, and yet he still wishes for Tifa to get to meet the real Cloud.

This is, of course, the high affection version. In the low affection version, Cloud does not acknowledge calling out to Tifa's heart,

Yes he does. "So it was Tifa..." means he heard hers in return.

and nothing physical takes place between the two that night. The high affection version, if i'm not mistaken, has been considered canon only since the 2007 Ultimania.

No, it's been canon since long before then, it just TOOK the Ultimania to convince the diehards.

Cloud is NOT fighting for his memories of Tifa.

Cloud
"I know why I'm fighting."
"I'm fighting to save the planet, and that's that."
"But besides that, there's something personal too..."
"A very personal memory that I have."
"What about you all?"
"I want all of you to find that something within yourselves."
"If you don't find it, then that's okay too."
"You can't fight without a reason, right?"
"So, I won't hold it against you if you don't come back."

(He nods. Cid rubs the back of his head and turns to the pilot. The scene
fades to black.)

QED, Enigma.

The "butt touch," if i get what you're referring to, was more of a touch to the back of his leg above the knee, to help/'make sure' Cloud was able to climb all the way onto the ledge. Even if she was tenderly/erotically touching his ass there (which it doesn't appear that she was) it only shows Tifa's affection for Cloud, not his affection for her.

It shows he's willing to let her touch his upper inner thigh. The name butt touch is simply for ease of speaking.

Still does not indicate a romantic relationship.

So what DOES, in your opinion? Being sad that someone died?
So Cecil wanted to shag Tellah? Zack wanted to smurf Angeal? OK had the hots for Aria? Krile was considering incest with Galuf?

I answered the way that I did because I was short on time and I did not expect that you folks do not believe there is ANYTHING that REMOTELY suggests that Cloud MIGHT HAVE HAD affection for Aeris. Now I'm not saying that any one instance of the following offers all the proof that CloudxAeris was intended to be canon in the original game. At the most I'm trying to convey that the game either leaves it as ambiguous OR gives Aeris a SLIGHT edge. Here's a few non-optional scenes to consider:

Cait Sith's prediction: Although he was wrong about the two living happily ever after together, the context surrounding the prediction has CloudxAeris overtones: Cloud agrees to pose with Aeris as the prediction is made; "Interrupted by Fireworks," a sentimental tune, starts playing as soon as Cait Sith comes upon his prediction; Tifa, if in the party, becomes fed up and turns away jealously. (Why would she react this way if there was absolutely no reason to believe there was something between Aeris and Cloud at the time?)

Cait Sith has always been noted by the creators as a charlatan. His prediction is blatantly shown null and void a short time later.
Tifa's jealousy does not indicate there is anything between Cloud and Aerith.

Cloud's dream of Aeris in the sleeping forest: AerisxCloud implications are made when Cloud and Aeris fall slowly together to the ground, and when Cloud tries to run after Aeris as if 'pursuing her' and not wanting her to leave. I will concur, however, that there may be many different interpretations of this scene.

SHE contacts him mentally, says something he does not understand, and he goes 'wait, WHAT?'
Then sepiroth shows up. Clephiroth undertones, eh?

The Ending: Aeris' and Cloud's souls (or whatever you want to call their out-of-body existences) reach out to each other before Cloud snaps back into reality and into his own body.

Aerith leads Cloud back to Tifa, so he can run and save Tifa succesfully, bringing a positive end to the arc started by his failure to stop her falling and her getting injured.
Totally the opposite of C/A, really.

An answer from the Planet...the Promised Land...I think I can meet her...there.

Here Cloud is obviously expressing a personal desire to meet Aeris and says that she can be found in the Promised Land, which we all know is a very personal place/state of mind. Therefore by saying "I can meet her... there", he makes it clear that: 1) He's not too concerned with Tifa or the others meeting her, and 2) he's planning on meeting with Aeris in a way which the others cannot. Now Tifa, surprised and/or taken by what Cloud has just said, responds with "Yeah, let's go meet her." She, not Cloud, is the one to apply his statement to herself and the others, since after all, Aeris is missed by everyone. Although it is a sentimental line, it is not said with the same level of depth as Cloud's line is, and it really doesn't seem to be what Cloud has in mind--Because when you put it all into perspective, Cloud sees meeting Aeris as something which is a significant part of, if not wholly in itself, his personal Promised Land. Also, Tifa's reaction to Cloud's line (both in her line and in her facial expressions) can be interpreted a couple of different ways: Either she 1) is very touched by Cloud expressing the significance of the dear friend she recently lost, or 2) she is becoming aware of who is truly on Cloud's mind, accepts it, and resigns from her pursuit of him, or 3) Both.

Cloud is telling Tifa that there is a chance that they can meet Aerith and other fallen comrades in the afterlife in the case the answer from the planet is no. Further, Cloud expresses realization, it is TIFA who expressed intent. AerTi FTW!
The UO backs that one up, BTW.

Of much greater significance, however, is Cloud’s line from the ending of the game about meeting Aerith again. Until the Compilation of FFVII came along, this line was seen by many Cleriths as the clencher that Cloud preferred Aerith, and by many Clotis and neutrals as the line that left things just ambiguous enough.

Though I would have once argued otherwise, looking at things more objectively today, I have to agree that this line left matters in the original game more in favor of Aerith than of Tifa. Due to the existence of the newer Compilation materials, however, that no longer holds true in the wider scheme of things.

As a critic of the Compilation & materials, I agree with SoS, that the ending tips the scale slightly in the direction of Aeris when looking only at the original game. Aside from that, I think the game is pretty ambiguous on the matter. A lot depends on how much weight you place on certain aspects of the game, really.

He is correct that the english version made it sound more ambigous, but the original line does not contain identifying pronouns, so it could easily be taken in the singular or the plural. The UO says the idea is expressed to Tifa, so it only makes sense to be in the plural.
There are some things that you can mistake as pro-C/A, but the entire story of FF7 is built around a giant red herring, so you should look back at these things in light of the new evidence, in light of what we learn about Cloud in his mind, what constitutes the core of Cloud and what the creators thought we should be told about him when we first meet the true him.
Why have them have his last words before falling to his apparent death be to wish Tifa well in finding the real him? Importantly, why deliberately undercut all the C/A interactions by the spectre of Zack and Cait Sith's prediction with her death if they wanted us to truly take a romance out it? It makes no sense to present us something and show it to be hollow if it's supposed to be a true example.

Yes, it certainly is canon, but I'm not going for 2009 canon. I've been discussing a VERY alternate point of view since I do not accept anything after ~2003 (the Compilation) into my own personal continuity. This basically leaves us with the original game only.

Memorial Album.
Latest release was the revision in 1999.

Well it's obvious that the prediction itself was BS, considering what happens... but I was talking moar about the atmosphere surrounding the scene.

The atmosphere is a giant red herring. The scene is there to soften you up for a suckerpunch. Plus, the music continues on through Cait's entire death sequence too. It's there to ham up his 'sacrifice'

Yes it most certainly does. And like the forest scene, it can be interpreted a couple of ways and alone cannot be definitive support for anything.

Your latter suggestion is definately the more valid interpretation; remember that I said there can be many different (non CxA) interpretations of this scene based on your leanings. However, he already did apologize for beating her earlier in the dream, and she did tell him where she was going. And when she turned to run off, since he was dreaming, he wasn't able to hold her back (shown by him reaching out) or follow her like he wanted (running without going anywhere).

Cloud, after he wakes up, is afraid he might end up killing Aeris or doing something terrible if he follows her. It is for this reason that he does not want to go, even though deep down, as shown by his hazy and abstract dream, he does want to follow her (for whatever reason).

Funny how it takes Tifa's pep talk to convince him. And it's not a dream. It's a communication. And Cloud goes after because he still has questions she did not answer.

When Cloud snaps back into his own body, Tifa is frantically reaching out to him and shouting to him because he's in mortal peril and she's trying to awaken him and save him from falling into the lifestream. This situation is a far cry from the dream-like, idealistic moment he was having just seconds earlier, where Cloud and Aeris reached out to each other as if to be reunited. A lot of people also see the transition from Aeris' hand to Tifa's as symbolic of Cloud choosing Tifa over Aeris, and had Cloud not suddenly been thrust into a life-or-death situation, I'd probably agree. However, that's not the case.

I see it as Cloud getting punted back to his body, in yet another 'You don't belong here' moment.
Now, what shows me he's chosen Tifa is him running over, catching her, staying by her, holding her hand, etc. throughout the rest of the ending, instead of diving headfirst into the lifestream to 'find the promised land.'