Let's discuss Cloud's main love interest: Aerith or Tifa

[Shishikabob]

"But besides that, there's something personal too..."
"A very personal memory that I have."

I think people think he's referring to Aerith here.

I see it as Cloud getting punted back to his body, in yet another 'You don't belong here' moment.
Now, what shows me he's chosen Tifa is him running over, catching her, staying by her, holding her hand, etc. throughout the rest of the ending, instead of diving headfirst into the lifestream to 'find the promised land.'

Well come on, I mean he's not going to suicide XD
But I do see Cloti undertones in the end, myself.

I mean maybe Aerith was helping him wake up, but in the end it was Tifa's hand he was reaching for so that says something to me.

[Ryushikaze]

"But besides that, there's something personal too..."
"A very personal memory that I have."

I think people think he's referring to Aerith here.

How the hell is Aerith a personal memory? EVERYONE is fighting for Aerith. The only 'personal' memories we've been told about are the ones from the lifestream.

Well come on, I mean he's not going to suicide XD
But I do see Cloti undertones in the end, myself.

Hey, if he 'wants to be with her again no matter what,' that is the fastest route. Certainly faster than never going to search and moving in with the other woman.

[Shishikabob]

How the hell is Aerith a personal memory? EVERYONE is fighting for Aerith. The only 'personal' memories we've been told about are the ones from the lifestream.

No idea... but if you see the game to be ttly Clerith... that line comes out as Clerith... somehow.

[Ryushikaze]

Yes, but 'Ow, my ass' comes out TTLY Clerith to those people.

These are the same people who have lied/ been duped on numerous occasions. They eagerly drink the Kool Aid.

[silentenigma]

I know that the ultimania was just about the game, but due to the time of its release - and the fact that its character sections reference the compilation like you said - suggests that the scenario section could very well have been affected by the outlook of the compilation. After all, when put into perspective with the compilation (OtWtaS:CoT, Advent Children) the 'high affection' version is the only one that really makes any sense. It's logical that the ultimania, then, would reflect this.

It was also featured in both Memorial Albums, which well predate the compilation.

If the Memorial Albums also included the low affection version like you said, then it really doesn't do anything to establish one version as canon over the other.

Cloud being able to speek coherently BEFORE being found (and 'awakened') by Tifa on the streets of Midgar.
Cloud remaining hidden from Shinra troops, rather than the troops finding him and leaving him for dead.

The previous version was a recollection by Cloud. It is prone to error.

The "Shinra mansion basement" flashback was included in the original game to explain the truth of how Cloud got from Nibelheim to Midgar. Do you really think that in 1997 the developers would knowingly include "memory error" in this flashback and mislead its audience? It's obviously a truth from the original game which they decided to scratch out later on. After all, the "Cloud! Run!" (Zack says this to Cloud as they are being attacked by Shinra) flashback in FFVII:AC, which resembles the situation presented by the original game, was removed in FFVII:ACC after Crisis Core came out. If this version had been seen by the developers as an "erroneous memory in Cloud's mind" then they wouldn't have had any reason taken it out to fit with Crisis Core. The developers are covering up their incongruities.

Cloud being able to speak or not was not actually specifically mentioned one way or another, previously.

Actually, check out this excerpt of the Final Fantasy VII script:

(The scene fades in to show the Sector 7 train station. It is raining.
Cloud, his sword across his lap, slumps by the stairway to the train
platform. The train conductor is looking down at him as Tifa enters.)

"What's the matter?"

(The screen flashes electrically white.)

Cloud
"ohhh..."

"......poor kid."

Cloud
"Ooouugh......"

(Tifa runs up to Cloud as the train conductor leaves.)

Tifa
"Are you all right?"

Cloud
"oo... uh... agh"

(She kneels by him and tries to lift him up. The screen flashes
electrically white again.)

Cloud
"Uh... uh... Tifa...?"
(Again.)

Cloud
"Tifa...?"
(Again. He stands.)

Cloud
"Tifa!"
Tifa
"...................?"
(She brushes his face.)

Tifa
"Oh, Cloud!"
(Cloud raises his sword in an offensive posture.)

Cloud
"That's right. I'm Cloud."

Cloud is clearly shown to be incapable of coherent speech before Tifa comes upon him, and he is shown to be similarly incapable in the Shinra Mansion Basement flashback. If you think that all this is an 'unfounded assumption' on my part, then I'm sorry that you need FFVII to have flashed in big neon letters on the screen, "CLOUD IS OUT OF HIS MIND AND CANNOT SPEAK BETWEEN HIS ESCAPE FROM NIBELHEIM AND BEING FOUND BY TIFA" for it to be a safe assumption. And you can't argue that this (Tifa's) memory is "prone to error" in this scene. It is a representation of the truth, especially due to the fact that the scene includes things which Tifa did not even witness herself (Such as Cloud losing his composure as Tifa was turned away).

This also is not a retcon. This is just information you don't like. Zack falls through the roof in a different location. This hole is there in FF7.

O RLY?


(Sunlight shines through in only one area)


Because I see only one hole.

In short, your retcons... aren't. They are things you personally did not like or made assumptions about that were shown to be false or unfounded.

I never said my problems with AC were retcons, but are you seriously saying it's UNFOUNDED for one to ASSUME in 1998 that when the screen read "THE END," it was really THE END? That Jenova and Sephiroth had been defeated once and for all; that Cloud had been cleansed of Jenova by the lifestream? In a game which was apart of a series known to never have produced a sequel? FFVII:AC cheapens what is accomplished/established in FFVII for the simple fact that it "reveals" (or more like 'fabricates') that these accomplishments were never actually made. Just consider the fact that for AC (As the AC Reunion Files book states) the staff decided definitely to bring Sephiroth back before they could even come up with a reason for it! (They had to tackle the issue: In order to bring Sephiroth back, how could they find a way to circumvent the ending which they had originally intended to offer complete closure to the story?) Well, after turning their backs to the integrity of the original narrative, they found a way; But this time around, they were smarter in AC by including Sephiroth's line, "I'll never be a memory." We now have to assume that Sephiroth could come back any time... And Square has set themselves up to bring him back again and again and again, arguably without raising any qualms concerning the closure of the movie. And the fact that one has to give Square Enix the benefit of the doubt so many times in order to fit everything in the compilatioin together logically is alienating to me. I'd like to again refer to what Squall of Seed has to on the matter of inconsistencies, this time in his lengthy FFVII plot analysis. The last section addresses the subject of inconsistencies.

Regardless, you seem to accept that I reject FFVII installments and materials released after ~2003 when debating the love triangle topic.

This can plausibly be argued not to have been the basis for a romantic relationship, but rather to have been an event which took place between close friends who shared a closely connected past. Cloud's subconscious kept these tender/precious memories (which concerned Tifa's mother's death, Cloud and Tifa's fall from Mt Nibel, and Tifa's coma) hidden mostly due to past embarrassment of being blamed for putting the girl he liked in danger, when he had actually been trying to help her, and the detrimental affect this event had on the remainder of his childhood. EDIT: And although they served as his true original motivation to become a SOLDIER - wanting to transcend the other boys and get Tifa to notice him - these feelings didn't carry over into his present state.

Then why reaffirm them so?

They were integral to his sense of identity leading up to the Nibelheim incident. Without 'reaffirming' these childhood memories, Cloud may not have been able to regain himself in the lifestream.

Cloud is not actually HIMSELF most of the game, and does not have access to the whole of his memories. And then later he believes himself to be a mere simulacra of the real Cloud, and yet he still wishes for Tifa to get to meet the real Cloud.

Cloud
"Especially you, Tifa. I'm really sorry."
"You've been good to me...... I don't know what to say..."

(He shakes his head.)

Cloud
"I never lived up to being 'Cloud'."
"Tifa... Maybe one day you'll meet the real 'Cloud'."

(He walks forward and turns to Hojo. Tifa holds her face and sinks to the
ground, crying.)

Cloud's statements in this scene are based on Sephiroth convincing him that there is another Cloud out there somewhere who actually grew up in Nibelheim with Tifa. Tifa had been trying to convince Cloud that he was the real Cloud, but he no longer believes her. Seeing her in a mental breakdown, Cloud unsympathetically apologizes for not living up to the real Cloud and coolly wishes her luck in finding "the real Cloud." In essence, Cloud, in the state of mind he was in, does not really care if Tifa ever meets the real Cloud, but rather uses his statement almost as rhetoric to try an convince him that another cloud exists and to make his apology seem sincere, even as he abandons and betrays her.

Also, while Cloud is not in the persona of his true self at the beginning of the game (but rather a mix of Zack and Tifa's memories of him), he still is, you know, self-aware as a human being and continues to build upon his experiences and gain memories. This is evident in the fact that as the game goes on, even way before the lifestream scene, Cloud becomes less and less the cocky mercenary jerk (Zack) he had been when he had just awakened form Mako poisoning. This is why we do not notice a stark contrast between Cloud's personality at the beginning of disk two and his personality at the end of disk two; He had gradually become more and more like the real Cloud on his own, with the only exception being his frequent mental breakdowns. This is why Aeris is eventually able to sense the 'real Cloud within' on the Aeris date ("No, but you're different") and differentiate him from Zack. So when he remembers his motivations of the past (wanting to join SOLDIER to impress Tifa), it doesn't mean that he automatically throws away all the more recent (and in my opinion, more relevent and timely) motivations and memories which compells him in the present (Save planet, defeat Sephiroth) even though they were developed in a time where he was not completely himself on the surface. Also, this is why his earlier crush on Tifa may not have necessarily transferred over to the present as affection.

This is, of course, the high affection version. In the low affection version, Cloud does not acknowledge calling out to Tifa's heart,

Yes he does. "So it was Tifa..." means he heard hers in return.

He acknowledges Tifa calling out to him, but he does not acknowledge him calling out to her, regardless of what Tifa believes. It's the 'low affection' version for a reason, you know.

"But deep in my heart I heard you calling my name... Or at least I thought I did..."
(Cloud looks away into the distance.)
Cloud "I see."
Cloud "I think I've heard it, too. Then, it was Tifa's voice."

No, it's been canon since long before then, it just TOOK the Ultimania to convince the diehards.

In your honest humble opinion.

Cloud is NOT fighting for his memories of Tifa.

Cloud
"I know why I'm fighting."
"I'm fighting to save the planet, and that's that."
"But besides that, there's something personal too..."
"A very personal memory that I have."
"What about you all?"
"I want all of you to find that something within yourselves."
"If you don't find it, then that's okay too."
"You can't fight without a reason, right?"
"So, I won't hold it against you if you don't come back."

(He nods. Cid rubs the back of his head and turns to the pilot. The scene
fades to black.)

Given the earlier context which I cited ("this is a personal feud. I want to beat Sephiroth. And settle my past.") and what I've written above, I find it more likely that Cloud's 'personal memory' refers to his feud with Sephiroth, who had destroyed his hometown and his childhood dreams (Cloud had highly respected and trusted Sephiroth, after all). It is my take that by calling his memory "very personal," He is just making it clear to the others that they should discover what truly motivates them (to fight 'for themselves'), aside from the common goal of saving the planet. Cloud earlier establishes this memory to be his sufferings at the hand of Sephiroth. And Just before the group confronts Sephiroth, after everyone else spills their personal philosophy classic FF-style, Cloud's last line does well to confirm this: "Aeris's memories... Our memories...We came... to tell you... our memories... Come Planet! Show us
your answer!And Sephiroth! To the settling of everything!!"

It shows he's willing to let her touch his upper inner thigh. The name butt touch is simply for ease of speaking.

Mid outer thigh, really. It's really not all that suggestive. I would let anyone touch me there, especially through thick army pants.

Tifa's jealousy does not indicate there is anything between Cloud and Aerith.

So what DOES it indicate then? Clearly Tifa is in some way jealous of Aerith in the scene. And obviously Cloud is content with standing next to Aerith as their fortunes are read, and at the very least he is content with what Cait Sith has to say. It's not like Cloud chimes in with "Heh heh... well you know how Cait Sith's fortunes usually turn out!" after they're given the fortune.

Aerith leads Cloud back to Tifa, so he can run and save Tifa succesfully, bringing a positive end to the arc started by his failure to stop her falling and her getting injured.

If "Aerith leading Cloud back to Tifa" was the developers' true intent for this scene, they certainly did it in a very obscure/poor manner. Aerith extends her hand out to Cloud with her palm face down (implying 'want' or 'longing') rather than face up (beckoning/leading). Cloud also reaches up to her in awe and wonder, implying he's returning this gesture of longing. As highly sentimental music plays. Then the vision simply disappears, showing no indication that Aerith was the one who intentionally awakened Cloud so that he could save Tifa. And as Cloud returns to his own body, it seems more obvious that he was awakened by either Tifa's screams (NOT necessarily symbolic, mind you) or the turbulence all around him.

Cloud is telling Tifa that there is a chance that they can meet Aerith and other fallen comrades in the afterlife in the case the answer from the planet is no. Cloud expresses realization, TIFA expressed intent.
AerTi FTW!
The UO backs that one up, BTW.

Though I don't accept everything that the UO states anyway due to its time of release, could you cite where it says that? I skimmed the guide but couldn't find it.

He is correct that the english version made it sound more ambigous, but the original line does not contain identifying pronouns, so it could easily be taken in the singular or the plural. The UO says the idea is expressed to Tifa, so it only makes sense to be in the plural.

It seems that you're basing your knowledge of the original japanese line solely on implications from the UO rather than the actual script itself... I'm just quite skeptical because this interpretation seems to contradict the game's definition of The Promised Land, in that it is very personal for each individual.

Plus, the music continues on through Cait's entire death sequence too. It's there to ham up his 'sacrifice'

There is still something about the music starting as soon as he comes to his 'prediction' rather than at his line "Thanks for believing me...." It gives the former ironic scene a sense of sentimentality in my opinion, as if expressing the tragedy of the fact that his prediction is doomed not to come to pass---showing that the "together happily ever after" idea could be based on mutual feelings, and that it is a significant opportunity which Sephiroth takes away when he kills Aeris.

Funny how it takes Tifa's pep talk to convince him.

And Barret. So really, it's a combination of two of his best friends knocking him into shape that gets Cloud to shakily agree to go.

Cloud goes after because he still has questions she did not answer.

The entire group, including Cloud, goes after Aeris because of their concern for her safety since she went alone.

I see it as Cloud getting punted back to his body, in yet another 'You don't belong here' moment.

I agree, but only in a temporary sense. Cloud had stuff to take care of before he'd go and find his Promised Land. Like saving Tifa's ass, helping everyone get out alive, getting himself out alive, etc.

Now, what shows me he's chosen Tifa is him running over, catching her, staying by her,

I see Cloud catching her as him 1) closing the arc that you mentioned earlier, which was a symbol of his weakness, and showing that he is now strong and capable, and 2) not being a total jerk; actually caring for the well being of a dear friend. Now if the player had chosen for Cloud to love Tifa, then the emotion in this scene is all the more intense and it can serve to strengthen the protective bond which the two have. Yet at the same time, Cloud was really just doing what any true friend would do in that situation.

holding her hand, etc. throughout the rest of the ending,

Are you talking about that split second where we see Cloud grabbing Tifa's arm and holding on for dear life to keep them both from falling off the bridge of the airship as it's falling out of the sky? Another practical action in a desperate situation. Yet just minutes later when the ship is flying again and everyone is in suspense concerning the fate of the Planet, just before Tifa spots the lifestream burst from the ground, we see Tifa, Cloud, and Red XIII on screen. It's the perfect opportunity for Cloud to be 'close' to Tifa, possibly to comfort her or to spend with her what could be their last moments together or something. Yet Cloud is not at all particularly close to Tifa here and is rather more concerned with Red XIII to be honest.

instead of diving headfirst into the lifestream to 'find the promised land.'

I don't think Cloud's Promised Land ever was supposed to involved suicide, or death... but perhaps something more abstract.


Well this post is ridiculously too long.. or at least it feels like it. I think i was intending to have a conclusion, but it's pretty late and I'm tired. In my mind, the majority of my positions still stand, both in this post and my previous post. If I get any additional responses to either, I might not really respond to them because life is getting busy lately. Everyone just remember that my standpoint on this whole thing really is more neutral than it I probably make it out to be, and that I'm not really going for canon since the original game is basically the only thing i accept into my personal continuity, whether or not you agree with my reasons for doing so.

[Shishikabob]

Aerith extends her hand out to Cloud with her palm face down (implying 'want' or 'longing') rather than face up (beckoning/leading).

... what?

[Ryushikaze]

It was also featured in both Memorial Albums, which well predate the compilation.

If the Memorial Albums also included the low affection version like you said, then it really doesn't do anything to establish one version as canon over the other.

:sigh: Reread that, SE... I said NOTHING about the Low Highwind version being in Memorable Album. I said High version was in both Memorial Albums.

The "Shinra mansion basement" flashback was included in the original game to explain the truth of how Cloud got from Nibelheim to Midgar. Do you really think that in 1997 the developers would knowingly include "memory error" in this flashback and mislead its audience? It's obviously a truth from the original game which they decided to scratch out later on. After all, the "Cloud! Run!" (Zack says this to Cloud as they are being attacked by Shinra) flashback in FFVII:AC, which resembles the situation presented by the original game, was removed in FFVII:ACC after Crisis Core came out. If this version had been seen by the developers as an "erroneous memory in Cloud's mind" then they wouldn't have had any reason taken it out to fit with Crisis Core. The developers are covering up their incongruities.

"Cloud Run" isn't in the original flashback. It actually hails from LO originally. What is presented in the FF7 ACC flashback doesn't really contradict either FF7 or CC. In fact, upon double checking the FF7 and CC version both show Zack dyig in the same way to the same 3 grunts, and the CC version doesn't show either way about them checking and disregarding Cloud.
Again, your retcon- isn't.

Actually, check out this excerpt of the Final Fantasy VII script:
-snip-

Cloud is clearly shown to be incapable of coherent speech before Tifa comes upon him, and he is shown to be similarly incapable in the Shinra Mansion Basement flashback. If you think that all this is an 'unfounded assumption' on my part, then I'm sorry that you need FFVII to have flashed in big neon letters on the screen, "CLOUD IS OUT OF HIS MIND AND CANNOT SPEAK BETWEEN HIS ESCAPE FROM NIBELHEIM AND BEING FOUND BY TIFA" for it to be a safe assumption. And you can't argue that this (Tifa's) memory is "prone to error" in this scene. It is a representation of the truth, especially due to the fact that the scene includes things which Tifa did not even witness herself (Such as Cloud losing his composure as Tifa was turned away).

Or, OR, Cloud can simply be repeating things said to him by Zack and not be coherent. Or even he becomes lucid for a single moment before sliding back into dementia. Hard to accept, I know. Seriously, these are the giant gaping plot holes you hate the compilation for?

This also is not a retcon. This is just information you don't like. Zack falls through the roof in a different location. This hole is there in FF7.

O RLY?
Because I see only one hole.

I was in error about the two holes. However, the hole that exists is QUITE large, seems to exist beforehand anyways, and there's a surprising lack of any extra junk littering the floor around Cloud, just the floorboards that were already pushed out of the way.
Put another way, the assumption that Cloud punched that hole through the roof of the already in disrepair church is highly unlikely. Similarly so that Zack punched through either. Unless Zack punched the hole and Cloud widened it up a bit.

I never said my problems with AC were retcons, but are you seriously saying it's UNFOUNDED for one to ASSUME in 1998 that when the screen read "THE END," it was really THE END?-snip-

You listed them among your other retcons, so yes.
And the end doesn't mean no sequel. By your logic FFIV:TA is doing the same thing.
And Sephiroth can't 'come back at any time' and I'm aware there are inconsistencies, but smurf, compared to SW they're nada.

Regardless, you seem to accept that I reject FFVII installments and materials released after ~2003 when debating the love triangle topic.

I'll play your game, yes. Not sure why 2003 is the magic cutoff date, though.

They were integral to his sense of identity leading up to the Nibelheim incident. Without 'reaffirming' these childhood memories, Cloud may not have been able to regain himself in the lifestream.

Narratively, why affirm THESE memories, which all feature Tifa, and not completely ancillary memories? Why have Cloud repeat his desire to impress Tifa specifically, to state that he'll definitely be please as punch to learn that she did become interest if it is purely fillial? Hell, why tell us of his interest AT ALL when learning of his true self if it's irrelevant to who he is now?

Cloud's statements in this scene are based on Sephiroth convincing him that there is another Cloud out there somewhere who actually grew up in Nibelheim with Tifa. Tifa had been trying to convince Cloud that he was the real Cloud, but he no longer believes her. Seeing her in a mental breakdown, Cloud unsympathetically apologizes for not living up to the real Cloud and coolly wishes her luck in finding "the real Cloud." In essence, Cloud, in the state of mind he was in, does not really care if Tifa ever meets the real Cloud, but rather uses his statement almost as rhetoric to try an convince him that another cloud exists and to make his apology seem sincere, even as he abandons and betrays her.

Unsympathetically?
Coolly? Does not Care?
Sir, you're talking out of your ass and I feel no hesitation in saying it. Seriously, what makes you think that at this moment, with Cloud apologies for what he's done to everyone, Cloud would be such an insufferable jackass as to act in the way you describe. Are you just that smurfing desperate to refuse to admit that the game itself showed him expressing concern and sympathy to Tifa's emotions? Are you just that adamant about shipping him pink?

Also, while Cloud is not in the persona of his true self at the beginning of the game (but rather a mix of Zack and Tifa's memories of him), he still is, you know, self-aware as a human being and continues to build upon his experiences and gain memories. This is evident in the fact that as the game goes on, even way before the lifestream scene, Cloud becomes less and less the cocky mercenary jerk (Zack) he had been when he had just awakened form Mako poisoning. This is why we do not notice a stark contrast between Cloud's personality at the beginning of disk two and his personality at the end of disk two; He had gradually become more and more like the real Cloud on his own, with the only exception being his frequent mental breakdowns. This is why Aeris is eventually able to sense the 'real Cloud within' on the Aeris date ("No, but you're different") and differentiate him from Zack. So when he remembers his motivations of the past (wanting to join SOLDIER to impress Tifa), it doesn't mean that he automatically throws away all the more recent (and in my opinion, more relevent and timely) motivations and memories which compells him in the present (Save planet, defeat Sephiroth) even though they were developed in a time where he was not completely himself on the surface. Also, this is why his earlier crush on Tifa may not have necessarily transferred over to the present as affection.

You're saying a lot of nothing here, and shot yourself in the foot, too. You've admitted that As Cloud goes on, and is reminded of things LIKE his promise and regains various memories, he becomes more and more like himself, more sympathetic, more kind, etc. And then you say that he is the biggest jackass in the world at the tail end of all this. So let's look back- Cloud, not quite himself, does not have access to his memories, acts a bit of an asshole. Tifa reminds him of the promise, and he suddenly becomes a lot nicer to people. Time goes on, his shell cracks, his memories return, he's nicer to people. Why then wouldn't his crush also return either now or at some point? Why would he act like a Jackass to Tifa while apologizing to Red or Barrett at the same time? Is he being unsympathetic and cool to them too?

He acknowledges Tifa calling out to him, but he does not acknowledge him calling out to her, regardless of what Tifa believes. It's the 'low affection' version for a reason, you know.

Because we call it that. No other reason. And in that version, Cloud acknowledges hearing her heart calling to his after she expresses the idea that she thought she heard his calling and called back. He says 'I see. I think I've heard it, too. Then, it was Tifa's voice.' In other words, Cloud is affirming that she heard his by saying he thought he heard hers also.

In your honest humble opinion.

Memorial. ALBUM.

Given the earlier context which I cited ("this is a personal feud. I want to beat Sephiroth. And settle my past.") and what I've written above, I find it more likely that Cloud's 'personal memory' refers to his feud with Sephiroth, who had destroyed his hometown and his childhood dreams (Cloud had highly respected and trusted Sephiroth, after all). It is my take that by calling his memory "very personal," He is just making it clear to the others that they should discover what truly motivates them (to fight 'for themselves'), aside from the common goal of saving the planet. Cloud earlier establishes this memory to be his sufferings at the hand of Sephiroth. And Just before the group confronts Sephiroth, after everyone else spills their personal philosophy classic FF-style, Cloud's last line does well to confirm this: "Aeris's memories... Our memories...We came... to tell you... our memories... Come Planet! Show us
your answer!And Sephiroth! To the settling of everything!!"

'Very personal memory' has positive connotations. At the very least it's not spoken of in any way the vitriol Sephiroth is otherwise spoken of. Meanwhile, Cloud's memories re: Tifa- that tell us of his motivation as a person are called Private and Tender Memories. After this point, the next time Cloud even mentions the word memory is when he discusses his motivation for fighting.
Further, everyone leaves to find what they are fighting for. Cloud and Tifa stay behind. In both versions, Cloud speaks of everyone having an irreplacable something they are fighting for. This does not suggest blood feud with Sephiroth. This suggests something he does not wish to lose to Meteor.

Mid outer thigh, really. It's really not all that suggestive. I would let anyone touch me there, especially through thick army pants.

Upper inner, and you'd let any woman just cop a feel there whenever? Brave man.

So what DOES it indicate then? Clearly Tifa is in some way jealous of Aerith in the scene. And obviously Cloud is content with standing next to Aerith as their fortunes are read, and at the very least he is content with what Cait Sith has to say. It's not like Cloud chimes in with "Heh heh... well you know how Cait Sith's fortunes usually turn out!" after they're given the fortune.

Cloud... doesn't care. He says nothing positive or negative, makes no reaction, at all... It's like he's completely ambivalent about the nonsense Cait has just spouted, like all the other times.

If "Aerith leading Cloud back to Tifa" was the developers' true intent for this scene, they certainly did it in a very obscure/poor manner. Aerith extends her hand out to Cloud with her palm face down (implying 'want' or 'longing') rather than face up (beckoning/leading).

No she doesn't. She has her hand evenly vertical. Tifa's hand, however, is totally face down when we do see it.

Cloud also reaches up to her in awe and wonder, implying he's returning this gesture of longing.

AMAZING insight you have into Cloud's mind good sir based on a completely poleaxed expression!
Cloud reaches up towards the light long before there's anything to reach to. It's completely reactionary.

As highly sentimental music plays. Then the vision simply disappears, showing no indication that Aerith was the one who intentionally awakened Cloud so that he could save Tifa.

And after he saves Tifa, the panicked music ends, and that 'sentimental music' as you call it starts up again immediately.

[qutoe]And as Cloud returns to his own body, it seems more obvious that he was awakened by either Tifa's screams (NOT necessarily symbolic, mind you) or the turbulence all around him.[/quote]

NOT symbolic? I love how you're the final arbiter on what's symbolic and what's not. How would her screaming returning Cloud's mind from the depths of the lifestream itself NOT be of import to the story if that were the case?

Though I don't accept everything that the UO states anyway due to its time of release, could you cite where it says that? I skimmed the guide but couldn't find it.

P29 is where the 'Cloud tells Tifa' thing comes from, IIRC. The 'fallen comrades' is elsewhere. In any case, the blurb also says 'the one they go meet' as well.

It seems that you're basing your knowledge of the original japanese line solely on implications from the UO rather than the actual script itself... I'm just quite skeptical because this interpretation seems to contradict the game's definition of The Promised Land, in that it is very personal for each individual.

I'm basing my knowledge of the original line based on the lack of pronouns and Tifa's reaction of 'Let's' go meet giving the first line context. The promised land for both of them can be with their fallen friend, can it not?

There is still something about the music starting as soon as he comes to his 'prediction' rather than at his line "Thanks for believing me...." It gives the former ironic scene a sense of sentimentality in my opinion, as if expressing the tragedy of the fact that his prediction is doomed not to come to pass---showing that the "together happily ever after" idea could be based on mutual feelings, and that it is a significant opportunity which Sephiroth takes away when he kills Aeris.

OR... That it's all bunk in its entirety and hammed up for his 'dramatic death' like the rest of the sequence.

And Barret. So really, it's a combination of two of his best friends knocking him into shape that gets Cloud to shakily agree to go.

Even better, it takes two people to convince him to do something you say he 'really wants to do.'

The entire group, including Cloud, goes after Aeris because of their concern for her safety since she went alone.

Yes. So how does that make Cloud going special, again? And you're equivocating here, or just can't follow the discussion. We were talking about his heading after her in the communique.

I agree, but only in a temporary sense. Cloud had stuff to take care of before he'd go and find his Promised Land. Like saving Tifa's ass, helping everyone get out alive, getting himself out alive, etc.

Why does he need to get himself out alive?
And Cloud does find his promised land. It's being surrounded by friend's and family. But then again, that's post 2k3. EVIL EVIL 2K3+.

I see Cloud catching her as him 1) closing the arc that you mentioned earlier, which was a symbol of his weakness, and showing that he is now strong and capable, and 2) not being a total jerk; actually caring for the well being of a dear friend. Now if the player had chosen for Cloud to love Tifa, then the emotion in this scene is all the more intense and it can serve to strengthen the protective bond which the two have. Yet at the same time, Cloud was really just doing what any true friend would do in that situation.

You don't 'choose' for Cloud to love anyone. And you're saying that the closing of an Arc- and arc started 15 years prior Cloud's time by the failure to save a girl from falling, a girl he had a crush on for the entire rest of his life until at least his intubation, and which was later reaffirmed when we finally get to learn and meet the real Cloud again- with the rescue of the girl the failure to rescue started the arc is just 'him doing what any true friend in that situation?' JUST? It's the oldest motivating factor we know of Cloud HAS. It's more than just being nice, it's coming full circle, with the promise, with his memories, in finally being the White Knight Tifa asked him to be, and doing it in time finally. There's romantic implications there whether Aerith went on the Date or Barret did.

Are you talking about that split second where we see Cloud grabbing Tifa's arm and holding on for dear life to keep them both from falling off the bridge of the airship as it's falling out of the sky? Another practical action in a desperate situation. Yet just minutes later when the ship is flying again and everyone is in suspense concerning the fate of the Planet, just before Tifa spots the lifestream burst from the ground, we see Tifa, Cloud, and Red XIII on screen. It's the perfect opportunity for Cloud to be 'close' to Tifa, possibly to comfort her or to spend with her what could be their last moments together or something. Yet Cloud is not at all particularly close to Tifa here and is rather more concerned with Red XIII to be honest.

I love how you just invent things here. First, see T,C, and Barret, but Cloud is quite Close to Tifa, and there's quite a gap between him and Barret, and very little of one between him and Tifa. Later, right after Red XII speaks, Cloud, yes, is looking at him, but then immediately and quickly returns his attention to Tifa. Even when looking at Red he's still close to Tifa Next we see, Red's not in shot any longer, and still being close to Tifa.

I don't think Cloud's Promised Land ever was supposed to involved suicide, or death... but perhaps something more abstract.

Like being surrounded by friends, family, and the living woman he loves?

Well this post is ridiculously too long.. or at least it feels like it. I think i was intending to have a conclusion, but it's pretty late and I'm tired. In my mind, the majority of my positions still stand, both in this post and my previous post. If I get any additional responses to either, I might not really respond to them because life is getting busy lately. Everyone just remember that my standpoint on this whole thing really is more neutral than it I probably make it out to be, and that I'm not really going for canon since the original game is basically the only thing i accept into my personal continuity, whether or not you agree with my reasons for doing so.

And my point is that the original story of FF7 is based around a gigantic red herring, a reevaluation of Cloud based on said red herring, and that all implications of having a choice in the matter of Cloud's romantic interest made utterly null and void by the revelations of the lifestream sequence and the light it sheds on both previous and later actions.

[line_genrou]

This is going nowhere,really.
But is fun to read

[Shishikabob]

This is going nowhere,really.

Most LTDs usually do.

[line_genrou]

Aerith extends her hand out to Cloud with her palm face down (implying 'want' or 'longing') rather than face up (beckoning/leading)

LOL.
Ok,that's just pushing it a little.

[Kyros]

so after reading all this I find it kinda entertaining of all the random bs people seem to come up with just to support stuff. I'm still convinced Cloud never loved Aeris ever but w/e

[Shishikabob]

I've heard worse...

ever heard this one:
The two monkeys in FFX-2 named Summer and Winter somehow prove Clerith... something about Cloud's personality is cold and Aerith's is warm... how about that one?

[Ryushikaze]

FFG's latest is worse, though. Cait Sith's predictions are true. The 'you will lose something dear' is true because Aerith is destined to die. The 'bright future/ invite me to the wedding' prediction is true because Aerith hasn't left and isn't yet on the path to her death.

I'll let you take a moment to figure out why this argument doesn't make any sense, apart from it being totally baseless.

[Shishikabob]

No no, she changed it, now she says the first one means Cloud will lose his sanity which is true. Therefore the second one is true because Aerith isn't on the path to death yet... or some such.

also monkeys

EDIT:
NM i think she was just saying it COULD mean Cloud would lose his sanity.

and more monkey s.

[Kyros]

I think the monkeys are just there b/c monkeys are awesome, and I think CloudxAeris is just some random notion people get since you get to use her in your party before Tifa so they get in their head she must be the love interest then just dont look at it any other way ever despite it being obvious she's just some person that obsessed over Cloud and wouldnt give him 2 inches to breath.