If the Memorial Albums also included the low affection version like you said, then it really doesn't do anything to establish one version as canon over the other.Originally Posted by Ryushikaze
The "Shinra mansion basement" flashback was included in the original game to explain the truth of how Cloud got from Nibelheim to Midgar. Do you really think that in 1997 the developers would knowingly include "memory error" in this flashback and mislead its audience? It's obviously a truth from the original game which they decided to scratch out later on. After all, the "Cloud! Run!" (Zack says this to Cloud as they are being attacked by Shinra) flashback in FFVII:AC, which resembles the situation presented by the original game, was removed in FFVII:ACC after Crisis Core came out. If this version had been seen by the developers as an "erroneous memory in Cloud's mind" then they wouldn't have had any reason taken it out to fit with Crisis Core. The developers are covering up their incongruities.The previous version was a recollection by Cloud. It is prone to error.Cloud being able to speek coherently BEFORE being found (and 'awakened') by Tifa on the streets of Midgar.
Cloud remaining hidden from Shinra troops, rather than the troops finding him and leaving him for dead.
Actually, check out this excerpt of the Final Fantasy VII script:Cloud being able to speak or not was not actually specifically mentioned one way or another, previously.
Cloud is clearly shown to be incapable of coherent speech before Tifa comes upon him, and he is shown to be similarly incapable in the Shinra Mansion Basement flashback. If you think that all this is an 'unfounded assumption' on my part, then I'm sorry that you need FFVII to have flashed in big neon letters on the screen, "CLOUD IS OUT OF HIS MIND AND CANNOT SPEAK BETWEEN HIS ESCAPE FROM NIBELHEIM AND BEING FOUND BY TIFA" for it to be a safe assumption. And you can't argue that this (Tifa's) memory is "prone to error" in this scene. It is a representation of the truth, especially due to the fact that the scene includes things which Tifa did not even witness herself (Such as Cloud losing his composure as Tifa was turned away).
O RLY?This also is not a retcon. This is just information you don't like. Zack falls through the roof in a different location. This hole is there in FF7.
(Sunlight shines through in only one area)
Because I see only one hole.
I never said my problems with AC were retcons, but are you seriously saying it's UNFOUNDED for one to ASSUME in 1998 that when the screen read "THE END," it was really THE END? That Jenova and Sephiroth had been defeated once and for all; that Cloud had been cleansed of Jenova by the lifestream? In a game which was apart of a series known to never have produced a sequel? FFVII:AC cheapens what is accomplished/established in FFVII for the simple fact that it "reveals" (or more like 'fabricates') that these accomplishments were never actually made. Just consider the fact that for AC (As the AC Reunion Files book states) the staff decided definitely to bring Sephiroth back before they could even come up with a reason for it! (They had to tackle the issue: In order to bring Sephiroth back, how could they find a way to circumvent the ending which they had originally intended to offer complete closure to the story?) Well, after turning their backs to the integrity of the original narrative, they found a way; But this time around, they were smarter in AC by including Sephiroth's line, "I'll never be a memory." We now have to assume that Sephiroth could come back any time... And Square has set themselves up to bring him back again and again and again, arguably without raising any qualms concerning the closure of the movie. And the fact that one has to give Square Enix the benefit of the doubt so many times in order to fit everything in the compilatioin together logically is alienating to me. I'd like to again refer to what Squall of Seed has to on the matter of inconsistencies, this time in his lengthy FFVII plot analysis. The last section addresses the subject of inconsistencies.In short, your retcons... aren't. They are things you personally did not like or made assumptions about that were shown to be false or unfounded.
Regardless, you seem to accept that I reject FFVII installments and materials released after ~2003 when debating the love triangle topic.
They were integral to his sense of identity leading up to the Nibelheim incident. Without 'reaffirming' these childhood memories, Cloud may not have been able to regain himself in the lifestream.Then why reaffirm them so?This can plausibly be argued not to have been the basis for a romantic relationship, but rather to have been an event which took place between close friends who shared a closely connected past. Cloud's subconscious kept these tender/precious memories (which concerned Tifa's mother's death, Cloud and Tifa's fall from Mt Nibel, and Tifa's coma) hidden mostly due to past embarrassment of being blamed for putting the girl he liked in danger, when he had actually been trying to help her, and the detrimental affect this event had on the remainder of his childhood. EDIT: And although they served as his true original motivation to become a SOLDIER - wanting to transcend the other boys and get Tifa to notice him - these feelings didn't carry over into his present state.
Cloud is not actually HIMSELF most of the game, and does not have access to the whole of his memories. And then later he believes himself to be a mere simulacra of the real Cloud, and yet he still wishes for Tifa to get to meet the real Cloud.Cloud's statements in this scene are based on Sephiroth convincing him that there is another Cloud out there somewhere who actually grew up in Nibelheim with Tifa. Tifa had been trying to convince Cloud that he was the real Cloud, but he no longer believes her. Seeing her in a mental breakdown, Cloud unsympathetically apologizes for not living up to the real Cloud and coolly wishes her luck in finding "the real Cloud." In essence, Cloud, in the state of mind he was in, does not really care if Tifa ever meets the real Cloud, but rather uses his statement almost as rhetoric to try an convince him that another cloud exists and to make his apology seem sincere, even as he abandons and betrays her.
Also, while Cloud is not in the persona of his true self at the beginning of the game (but rather a mix of Zack and Tifa's memories of him), he still is, you know, self-aware as a human being and continues to build upon his experiences and gain memories. This is evident in the fact that as the game goes on, even way before the lifestream scene, Cloud becomes less and less the cocky mercenary jerk (Zack) he had been when he had just awakened form Mako poisoning. This is why we do not notice a stark contrast between Cloud's personality at the beginning of disk two and his personality at the end of disk two; He had gradually become more and more like the real Cloud on his own, with the only exception being his frequent mental breakdowns. This is why Aeris is eventually able to sense the 'real Cloud within' on the Aeris date ("No, but you're different") and differentiate him from Zack. So when he remembers his motivations of the past (wanting to join SOLDIER to impress Tifa), it doesn't mean that he automatically throws away all the more recent (and in my opinion, more relevent and timely) motivations and memories which compells him in the present (Save planet, defeat Sephiroth) even though they were developed in a time where he was not completely himself on the surface. Also, this is why his earlier crush on Tifa may not have necessarily transferred over to the present as affection.
He acknowledges Tifa calling out to him, but he does not acknowledge him calling out to her, regardless of what Tifa believes. It's the 'low affection' version for a reason, you know.Yes he does. "So it was Tifa..." means he heard hers in return.This is, of course, the high affection version. In the low affection version, Cloud does not acknowledge calling out to Tifa's heart,
In your honest humble opinion.No, it's been canon since long before then, it just TOOK the Ultimania to convince the diehards.
Given the earlier context which I cited ("this is a personal feud. I want to beat Sephiroth. And settle my past.") and what I've written above, I find it more likely that Cloud's 'personal memory' refers to his feud with Sephiroth, who had destroyed his hometown and his childhood dreams (Cloud had highly respected and trusted Sephiroth, after all). It is my take that by calling his memory "very personal," He is just making it clear to the others that they should discover what truly motivates them (to fight 'for themselves'), aside from the common goal of saving the planet. Cloud earlier establishes this memory to be his sufferings at the hand of Sephiroth. And Just before the group confronts Sephiroth, after everyone else spills their personal philosophy classic FF-style, Cloud's last line does well to confirm this: "Aeris's memories... Our memories...We came... to tell you... our memories... Come Planet! Show usCloudCloud is NOT fighting for his memories of Tifa.
"I know why I'm fighting."
"I'm fighting to save the planet, and that's that."
"But besides that, there's something personal too..."
"A very personal memory that I have."
"What about you all?"
"I want all of you to find that something within yourselves."
"If you don't find it, then that's okay too."
"You can't fight without a reason, right?"
"So, I won't hold it against you if you don't come back."
(He nods. Cid rubs the back of his head and turns to the pilot. The scene
fades to black.)
your answer!And Sephiroth! To the settling of everything!!"
Mid outer thigh, really. It's really not all that suggestive. I would let anyone touch me there, especially through thick army pants.It shows he's willing to let her touch his upper inner thigh. The name butt touch is simply for ease of speaking.
So what DOES it indicate then? Clearly Tifa is in some way jealous of Aerith in the scene. And obviously Cloud is content with standing next to Aerith as their fortunes are read, and at the very least he is content with what Cait Sith has to say. It's not like Cloud chimes in with "Heh heh... well you know how Cait Sith's fortunes usually turn out!" after they're given the fortune.Tifa's jealousy does not indicate there is anything between Cloud and Aerith.
If "Aerith leading Cloud back to Tifa" was the developers' true intent for this scene, they certainly did it in a very obscure/poor manner. Aerith extends her hand out to Cloud with her palm face down (implying 'want' or 'longing') rather than face up (beckoning/leading). Cloud also reaches up to her in awe and wonder, implying he's returning this gesture of longing. As highly sentimental music plays. Then the vision simply disappears, showing no indication that Aerith was the one who intentionally awakened Cloud so that he could save Tifa. And as Cloud returns to his own body, it seems more obvious that he was awakened by either Tifa's screams (NOT necessarily symbolic, mind you) or the turbulence all around him.Aerith leads Cloud back to Tifa, so he can run and save Tifa succesfully, bringing a positive end to the arc started by his failure to stop her falling and her getting injured.
Though I don't accept everything that the UO states anyway due to its time of release, could you cite where it says that? I skimmed the guide but couldn't find it.Cloud is telling Tifa that there is a chance that they can meet Aerith and other fallen comrades in the afterlife in the case the answer from the planet is no. Cloud expresses realization, TIFA expressed intent.
AerTi FTW!
The UO backs that one up, BTW.
It seems that you're basing your knowledge of the original japanese line solely on implications from the UO rather than the actual script itself... I'm just quite skeptical because this interpretation seems to contradict the game's definition of The Promised Land, in that it is very personal for each individual.He is correct that the english version made it sound more ambigous, but the original line does not contain identifying pronouns, so it could easily be taken in the singular or the plural. The UO says the idea is expressed to Tifa, so it only makes sense to be in the plural.
There is still something about the music starting as soon as he comes to his 'prediction' rather than at his line "Thanks for believing me...." It gives the former ironic scene a sense of sentimentality in my opinion, as if expressing the tragedy of the fact that his prediction is doomed not to come to pass---showing that the "together happily ever after" idea could be based on mutual feelings, and that it is a significant opportunity which Sephiroth takes away when he kills Aeris.Plus, the music continues on through Cait's entire death sequence too. It's there to ham up his 'sacrifice'
And Barret. So really, it's a combination of two of his best friends knocking him into shape that gets Cloud to shakily agree to go.Funny how it takes Tifa's pep talk to convince him.
The entire group, including Cloud, goes after Aeris because of their concern for her safety since she went alone.Cloud goes after because he still has questions she did not answer.
I agree, but only in a temporary sense. Cloud had stuff to take care of before he'd go and find his Promised Land. Like saving Tifa's ass, helping everyone get out alive, getting himself out alive, etc.I see it as Cloud getting punted back to his body, in yet another 'You don't belong here' moment.
I see Cloud catching her as him 1) closing the arc that you mentioned earlier, which was a symbol of his weakness, and showing that he is now strong and capable, and 2) not being a total jerk; actually caring for the well being of a dear friend. Now if the player had chosen for Cloud to love Tifa, then the emotion in this scene is all the more intense and it can serve to strengthen the protective bond which the two have. Yet at the same time, Cloud was really just doing what any true friend would do in that situation.Now, what shows me he's chosen Tifa is him running over, catching her, staying by her,
Are you talking about that split second where we see Cloud grabbing Tifa's arm and holding on for dear life to keep them both from falling off the bridge of the airship as it's falling out of the sky? Another practical action in a desperate situation. Yet just minutes later when the ship is flying again and everyone is in suspense concerning the fate of the Planet, just before Tifa spots the lifestream burst from the ground, we see Tifa, Cloud, and Red XIII on screen. It's the perfect opportunity for Cloud to be 'close' to Tifa, possibly to comfort her or to spend with her what could be their last moments together or something. Yet Cloud is not at all particularly close to Tifa here and is rather more concerned with Red XIII to be honest.holding her hand, etc. throughout the rest of the ending,
I don't think Cloud's Promised Land ever was supposed to involved suicide, or death... but perhaps something more abstract.instead of diving headfirst into the lifestream to 'find the promised land.'
Well this post is ridiculously too long.. or at least it feels like it. I think i was intending to have a conclusion, but it's pretty late and I'm tired. In my mind, the majority of my positions still stand, both in this post and my previous post. If I get any additional responses to either, I might not really respond to them because life is getting busy lately. Everyone just remember that my standpoint on this whole thing really is more neutral than it I probably make it out to be, and that I'm not really going for canon since the original game is basically the only thing i accept into my personal continuity, whether or not you agree with my reasons for doing so.
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