Let's discuss Cloud's main love interest: Aerith or Tifa

[silentenigma]

Put it together with the participles and you get:
"In the event the affection value toward Cloud from Tifa is high, the two that remain on the airship will confirm their feelings of desire for each other to one another."

Cloud and Tifa official WANT or desire each other

.....key phrase: "in the event that...."

Ambiguity still abounds.

It's also too bad that nobody (particularly a certain someone) ever really read my far-too-lengthy post as far as I know... because the whole end of disk two thing is a big part of that.

[Shishikabob]

Put it together with the participles and you get:
"In the event the affection value toward Cloud from Tifa is high, the two that remain on the airship will confirm their feelings of desire for each other to one another."

Cloud and Tifa official WANT or desire each other

.....key phrase: "in the even that...."

Ambiguity still abounds.

It's also too bad that nobody (particularly a certain someone) ever really read my far-too-lengthy post as far as I know... because the whole end of disk two thing is a big part of that.

There are SEVERAL quotes throughout that very same Ultimania and others that said Cloud and Tifa realized their feelings for each other at the end of FFVII. They didn't realize any thing in the low affection version, at all. Those quotes are basically implying the High Affection version is canon and this quote tells us WHAT feelings they realized.

[silentenigma]

From what I've found, these quotes are generally like this one, which is also ambiguous:

"After that speech, all of them are dismissed, except Cloud and Tifa. Confessing their feelings to each other, Cloud and Tifa see whether they feel the same way."

Regardless of the low or high versions, Cloud and Tifa realize each other's feelings. Only in the Low version, the realization is that the feeling is not mutual: Tifa vaguely confesses her love, and Cloud expresses that he wishes to find life's answers alone.

~ambiguity still abounds~


Speaking of things that the Almighty Ultimanias have to say (particularly because I'm tired of always being on the defense), here's this:

"Both of them share feelings for Cloud -- Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa's.
Tifa's complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world. This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith's death was his fault and condemning himself, construed that Denzel was 'the child which Aerith brought here' and took care of him. In addition, Cloud had also gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn't merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith." -10th anniversary ultimania

[Shishikabob]

"After that speech, all of them are dismissed, except Cloud and Tifa. Confessing their feelings to each other, Cloud and Tifa see whether they feel the same way."

Where is this from.. or did you make it up?

"Both of them share feelings for Cloud -- Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa's.
Tifa's complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world. This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith's death was his fault and condemning himself, construed that Denzel was 'the child which Aerith brought here' and took care of him. In addition, Cloud had also gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn't merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith." -10th anniversary ultimania

Look I can play the bold game too.

Cloud and Aerith had a special bond, I know this. Tifa doesn't want Cloud dragging his past around that might be related to Aerith because he feels such an insane amount of guilt for her, and she doesn't want to see him go through that.

Clerith proofs this is not I'm afraid.

[Ryushikaze]

From what I've found, these quotes are generally like this one, which is also ambiguous:

"After that speech, all of them are dismissed, except Cloud and Tifa. Confessing their feelings to each other, Cloud and Tifa see whether they feel the same way."

Wow, that's :bou::bou::bou::bou: for translated. And I know because I just helped translate that section earlier today. It says they share their feelings, not that they 'see whether or not the feel the same way'

Regardless of the low or high versions, Cloud and Tifa realize each other's feelings. Only in the Low version, the realization is that the feeling is not mutual: Tifa vaguely confesses her love, and Cloud expresses that he wishes to find life's answers alone.

No. He expresses nothing of the sort in the low version.

~ambiguity still abounds~

And the high version is canon. Memorial Album, UO, U20.

Speaking of things that the Almighty Ultimanias have to say (particularly because I'm tired of always being on the defense), here's this:

"Both of them share feelings for Cloud -- Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa's.
Tifa's complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world. This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith's death was his fault and condemning himself, construed that Denzel was 'the child which Aerith brought here' and took care of him. In addition, Cloud had also gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn't merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith." -10th anniversary ultimania

Yes. Different from Tifa's. Different in that it's not a bond of romance and mutual feelings.
Cloud and Tifa confirmed their mutual feelings, feelings of desire, under the highwind, they have a future together. THEY form a family together. She is the mother of that family and she sees him as the father.

Ambiguity my ass.

[line_genrou]

Please,of course they banged each other on that rock.
Two people that were attracted to each other,alone,world is about to end after a few hours...
I don't think they just held hands and slept.Let's ignore if they love each other,the situation itself implies that they did get in on.

[silentenigma]

Wow, that's for translated. And I know because I just helped translate that section earlier today. It says they share their feelings, not that they 'see whether or not the feel the same way'

I might take your word for it if you give that literal translation. There's no way that "They share their feelings" is the entire statement (it looks like only half), and if it was, it's still not clear that the feelings are mutual.

Regardless of the low or high versions, Cloud and Tifa realize each other's feelings. Only in the Low version, the realization is that the feeling is not mutual: Tifa vaguely confesses her love, and Cloud expresses that he wishes to find life's answers alone.

No. He expresses nothing of the sort in the low version.

Tifa "Cloud...? Do you think the stars can hear us? Do you think they see how hard we're fighting for them?"
Cloud "I dunno... But..."
"Whether they can or not, we still have to do what we can. And believe in ourselves..."
"I'll find the answer some day, as long as I keep trying."

Especially considering the contrast between that and the corresponding lines in the high version, I don't know how it could be more plain.

And the high version is canon. Memorial Album, UO, U20.

Hello again, Ryushikaze. I'll just refer you to my most recent response (post #125)
Basically I'm still skeptical about the memorial albums as being more than just a record of one possible playthough in order to get screenshots of the entire game.

Speaking of things that the Almighty Ultimanias have to say (particularly because I'm tired of always being on the defense), here's this:

"Yes. Different from Tifa's. Different in that it's not a bond of romance and mutual feelings.

Not a bond of romance? In the section that specifically addresses Aerith as a "love rival?" what kind of "special bond", other than a romantic one, would stir such "complex emotions" (jealousy) within Tifa as a "love rival?" Once again, it's very plain. Tifa would have no reason to harbor jealousy for Aerith if she had a mutual romantic bond to Cloud. She's frustrated that it is Aerith, instead of her, who has that "special bond" with Cloud.

Then in AC her old jealous feelings are reawakened when she finds that Cloud is living at the church, for she gets the impression that he's drawn there for more reasons than just his guilt ("dragging the past around").

[Shishikabob]

Then in AC her old jealous feelings are reawakened when she finds that Cloud is living at the church, for she gets the impression that he's drawn there for more reasons than just his guilt ("dragging the past around")

Dragging the past around is in reference to how guilty he feels about Aerith's death. I have no idea what makes you think otherwise.

When Cloud says in AC, that he doesn't think he can protect anyway, Tifa's response is "zuruzuru zuruzuru." which is an onomatopoeia for dragging.
ã�šã‚‹ã�šã‚‹ » Nihongodict: Free Online English ⇆ Japanese Dictionary

[Ryushikaze]

I might take your word for it if you give that literal translation. There's no way that "They share their feelings" is the entire statement (it looks like only half), and if it was, it's still not clear that the feelings are mutual.

In that singular quote it's not clear, but in all the other quotes, it either says they are or uses phrases with the same idiomatic tone as 'feelings for each other' has in english.

Tifa "Cloud...? Do you think the stars can hear us? Do you think they see how hard we're fighting for them?"
Cloud "I dunno... But..."
"Whether they can or not, we still have to do what we can. And believe in ourselves..."
"I'll find the answer some day, as long as I keep trying."

Especially considering the contrast between that and the corresponding lines in the high version, I don't know how it could be more plain.

Now who's reading too much into things? He doesn't say he wants to do it alone. He just says he has to keep trying. And either way, he wants Tifa to be with him 'from then on' 'in a different way than before' in the start of CoT.

Hello again, Ryushikaze. I'll just refer you to my most recent response (post #125)
Basically I'm still skeptical about the memorial albums as being more than just a record of one possible playthough in order to get screenshots of the entire game.

You can be skeptical all you want, but they released it twice with the same information.
And really, you don't like new materials, but they do count, so the UO and U20 count.

Not a bond of romance? In the section that specifically addresses Aerith as a "love rival?" what kind of "special bond", other than a romantic one, would stir such "complex emotions" (jealousy) within Tifa as a "love rival?" Once again, it's very plain. Tifa would have no reason to harbor jealousy for Aerith if she had a mutual romantic bond to Cloud. She's frustrated that it is Aerith, instead of her, who has that "special bond" with Cloud.

Cloud is oblivious to any feelings Aerith has. ALSO from the U10. So no, there was no romantic bond. You have to be aware of the other peson's feelings to have a romantic bond.

Then in AC her old jealous feelings are reawakened when she finds that Cloud is living at the church, for she gets the impression that he's drawn there for more reasons than just his guilt ("dragging the past around").

Uh, 'his guilt' IS dragging the past around. 'I failed people, I'll fail more people, I suck' is the basic idea of Cloud in AC/C. His guilt is what he's dragging, what she comments on him dragging around, and that's what he drags so much he wears it down, like he comments on later in the film.

[Shishikabob]

Ryu I've changed my mind, I don't think anything after the first 10 minutes in FFVII count... so clearly it's CloudxBarret.

[silentenigma]

In that singular quote it's not clear, but in all the other quotes, it either says they are or uses phrases with the same idiomatic tone as 'feelings for each other' has in english.

a'ight.

Now who's reading too much into things? He doesn't say he wants to do it alone. He just says he has to keep trying.

Sure, when you look at it alone, it seems to be that way. But when you compare the high and low versions....

Cloud (high): "Someday we'll find the answer. Right, Tifa?"
Cloud (low): "I'll find the answer some day, as long as I keep trying."

...the contrast between the two indicates that that Cloud isn't concerned with finding the answers together with Tifa.

And either way, he wants Tifa to be with him 'from then on' 'in a different way than before' in the start of CoT.

And this is where arguing for ambiguity in 2010 gets.... sketchy... and I'll admit it. The best counters to this, I suppose, are 1) that "different" could be referring to the idea of starting a 'family' with Tifa and others... 2) that not much later in the story, Tifa is still unsure if Cloud has feelings for her, and she can't bring herself to directly ask him if he loves her....and 3) that Nomura says he has 'no clue' if Tifa and Cloud share romantic interests between FFVII and AC, and that these matters have been been left up for fan interpretation.

Cloud is oblivious to any feelings Aerith has. ALSO from the U10. So no, there was no romantic bond. You have to be aware of the other peson's feelings to have a romantic bond.

You're right about the "Cloud is none the wiser to them" statement (which, for the record, applies to Tifa as well as Aerith) ... But the statement about Aerith's bond with Cloud is said in an objective sense; it's not about what Tifa feels is going on between them. So a bond exists between Cloud and Aerith, at the very least while she is still living. It is special, different from Tifa's, and causes "complex feelings" within Tifa as a love rival. What kind of bond could it be, then, if it's not knowingly romantic? The best thing I can think of is that it's a subconscious bond of romantic potential, which Tifa can sense by the way Aerith and Cloud naturally act around each other.

Come to think of it, it seems like the 'none the wiser' can only refer to a state pretty early in the game... i don't know.

Then in AC her old jealous feelings are reawakened when she finds that Cloud is living at the church, for she gets the impression that he's drawn there for more reasons than just his guilt ("dragging the past around").

Uh, 'his guilt' IS dragging the past around. 'I failed people, I'll fail more people, I suck' is the basic idea of Cloud in AC/C. His guilt is what he's dragging, what she comments on him dragging around, and that's what he drags so much he wears it down, like he comments on later in the film.

Sorry I guess my statement was worded a little funny, but I actually was saying that "dragging the past around" refers to his guilt, BUT remember what all of the quote says, particularly the last phrase:

"The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn't merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith."

So Tifa intuits that the reason Cloud goes to the church isn't merely because of his guilt, because of something else related to Aerith. Put the sentence in context with the section being about the love rivalry, and there you go.

[Shishikabob]

So Tifa intuits that the reason Cloud goes to the church isn't merely because of his guilt, because of something else related to Aerith.

... his guilt is related to Aerith dude

[Ryushikaze]

...the contrast between the two indicates that that Cloud isn't concerned with finding the answers together with Tifa.

Or that Cloud doesn't think Tifa wants him. It's her affection controlling. Not his.

And this is where arguing for ambiguity in 2010 gets.... sketchy... and I'll admit it. The best counters to this, I suppose, are 1) that "different" could be referring to the idea of starting a 'family' with Tifa and others...

What others? And how is starting the family with her not romantic?

2) that not much later in the story, Tifa is still unsure if Cloud has feelings for her, and she can't bring herself to directly ask him if he loves her....and

Much later in continuity, and that very question itself indicates she was at one point sure that he did. You don't randomly ask that question to a sleeping roommate you have feelings for. I mean, that's just Edward Cullen creepy.

3) that Nomura says he has 'no clue' if Tifa and Cloud share romantic interests between FFVII and AC, and that these matters have been been left up for fan interpretation.

A statement that came well before all the other information, from a man known to blatantly lie about upcoming titles rather than give away secrets- KH2 and Namine, anyone?

You're right about the "Cloud is none the wiser to them" statement (which, for the record, applies to Tifa as well as Aerith) ...

I am aware. He becomes 'wise' to these feelings later.

But the statement about Aerith's bond with Cloud is said in an objective sense; it's not about what Tifa feels is going on between them. So a bond exists between Cloud and Aerith, at the very least while she is still living. It is special, different from Tifa's, and causes "complex feelings" within Tifa as a love rival. What kind of bond could it be, then, if it's not knowingly romantic? The best thing I can think of is that it's a subconscious bond of romantic potential, which Tifa can sense by the way Aerith and Cloud naturally act around each other.

Or they're just easygoing with each other in a way Tifa isn't- in a way she actually brings up in her own date- and that's what makes her jealous, even if there's no romance there.
And smeg potential. There's potential on both sides.

Come to think of it, it seems like the 'none the wiser' can only refer to a state pretty early in the game... i don't know.

It applies at least as late in the game as the Gold Saucer dates.

Sorry I guess my statement was worded a little funny, but I actually was saying that "dragging the past around" refers to his guilt, BUT remember what all of the quote says, particularly the last phrase:

"The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn't merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith."

So Tifa intuits that the reason Cloud goes to the church isn't merely because of his guilt, because of something else related to Aerith. Put the sentence in context with the section being about the love rivalry, and there you go.

No, it's not just because Cloud feels guilt, but because that guilt has to do with Aerith. THAT'S what makes the feelings toward Aerith complicated. She cherishes Aerith, but hates that her memory is causing Cloud to beat himself up with guilt.
GUILT is always the key word between Cloud and Aerith and also between Cloud and Zack. Talking about romance is not only aparsimonious, it's narratively unsupported. If you want to emphasize love, you don't emphasize guilt and forgiveness, especially from a dead person. Extraordinary claims and extraordinary evidence, after all.

[Shishikabob]

Yeah for someone who loved Aerith and wanted to be her BF and what not, it's very odd that the first thing he says to her after being united is "I want to be forgiven!"

3) that Nomura says he has 'no clue' if Tifa and Cloud share romantic interests between FFVII and AC, and that these matters have been been left up for fan interpretation.

He said that BEFORE AC came out... like years before it came out. I'm not even entirely sure it was in the works at the time. You're really going to trust an interview that took place so long ago when AC wasn't even out? Wouldn't the newer interviews take precedence like the one where Nojima mentions "Love marriage and family" in the context of Cloud and Tifa? Plus Nomura's not the writer, Nojima is. Nomura's the director, big difference there.

Not to mention Nomura is a guy who said Kairi and Namine were not related to avoid spoiling fans.

[silentenigma]

Or that Cloud doesn't think Tifa wants him. It's her affection controlling. Not his.

untrue.

First off I need to establish something here. A lot of you folks are saying that the Dating Mechanics only reflect on Tifa's and Aeris' feelings for Cloud...but never the other way around. This makes little sense to begin with because we all know that both Aeris and Tifa continuously feel affection for Cloud. Besides that, it is shown otherwise that the date mechanics DO work both ways; they DO reflect Cloud's feelings and determine his actions. They show the mutual (b)romantic closeness between Cloud and the other characters. Take a look:

from Terence Fergusson's Date Mechanics Guide:

Talk to Jessie twice on the train home from the first mission:
"Thanks anyway" --
"Looking forward to it" (-3 Tifa)
(How could this action make Tifa like Cloud less if she isn't even present in the scene?)

If Cloud is chosen as the Don's date:
"Yes, his name's Barret..." (+5 Barret)
(How does this in any way reflect Barret's feelings for Cloud?)

When Marlene tells you about Aeris:
"I don't know" (-3 Aeris, +3 Tifa)
"Let's hope so" (+3 Aeris, -3 Tifa)
(Same deal here; Cloud's words end with Marlene, and yet Aeris's and Tifa's values are affected.)

This is also evident in the end-of-disk 2 Highwind scene: Tifa comes into the scene acting in the same way towards Cloud regardless of which version you get. But depending Tifa's point value, it is Cloud who may act two different ways towards Tifa.

And how is starting the family with her not romantic?

It's "family" as in, a group of close friends who live together and support each other. And that's exactly what they do. Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, Denzel. Barret probably would have been there too had he not gone off searching for alternative energy sources. Cloud and Tifa sleep in separate beds in AC and never have kids like a 'true' family. Now, Could they have found time for romance leading up to AC? possibly. But it's not completely clear. Either way, i know that one has to reach pretty far to argue against that one part in CoT, so I'll drop it.

Much later in continuity, and that very question itself indicates she was at one point sure that he did.

Or that at one point she convinced herself that he did, or felt that the things he used to say indicated that he did, etc.

You're definitely right about everything else though, so I'll quit trying to extend my 'ambiguity' argument to the compilation.