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Thread: The Sword of Truth Series (AKA RaistlinxTheMan luvluv)

  1. #16
    pirate heartbreaker The Man's Avatar
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    He's wrong because his arguments are philosophically absurd and completely inconsistent with real-world economics, but he's also wrong because he presents his series as being an accurate allegory for the real world when there are plenty of viewpoints that get completely left out, thus making it an incredibly really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking.ny allegory for the real world. "He doesn't argue both sides" is a stupid argument when talking about non-fiction, but fiction is another story. Again, I point you to most works of postmodern literature - the authors will present viewpoints they completely disagree with simply so the reader gets a much better picture of the complexity of the real world. Then again, the complexity of the real world is one of the central themes of postmodern literature, whereas Goodkind seems to have thorough disdain for moral relativism. Unfortunately for his own cause, Goodkind claims he's writing Great Literature that reveals Deep Truths that other authors aren't willing to address, when he quite patently omits crucial ideas that make up a central part of Western (and Eastern for that matter) thought as though they don't matter. Kind of undermines his intentions. If he hadn't given those interviews I'd probably just write him off as a wacky Randroid writing Objectivist propaganda and leave it at that, but he himself claims that his works model reality in an effective manner. Judging his works by his own standard, they're crap.

    It doesn't help, of course, that there aren't any characters that interest me particularly much in the series, and the writing isn't that good. I'd judge the series just on those criteria and put him alongside Eddings and Brooks if he weren't constantly trying to cram his politics down the reader's throat in a thoroughly one-sided and didactic manner while claiming that he was writing Great Literature. It's Goodkind's overinflated sense of self-importance that diminishes his work far beyond what it was otherwise be. Goodkind himself claims that his works contain important philosophical treatises. Therefore I take him at face value and evaluate his works by the criteria by which he has demanded they be evaluated.

    And since I didn't really address this fairly in my previous post (though I did allude to it with my comments about Sinclair), Miller isn't really a fair comparison, since Miller never claimed to be writing a Great Allegory for All of Reality. As far as I know, he never claimed to intend The Crucible to be anything other than an allegory for the Red Scare. (Maybe I'm missing something though; to be honest I've never even read The Crucible, much less any of Miller's commentary on it). Goodkind, meanwhile, has claimed Sword of Truth to be much more than a long-winded allegory for the Soviet Union. It's his own comments that diminish his work as literature. I guess if you subscribe to the Death of the Author school of literary criticism you can just disregard what he says, but I personally find it retarded to ignore author intent when evaluating the effectiveness of a work of literature and thus find Death of the Author to be an absurd school of thought.

    Also Shlup started with the ooc tags but I just started putting them in by default after she edited the first few in. Now that she's split the thread though I guess I'll edit this one out
    Last edited by The Man; 11-22-2009 at 10:05 AM.
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  2. #17
    Quack Shlup's Avatar
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    That's it, time to split threads.

  3. #18
    Shlup's Retired Pimp Recognized Member Raistlin's Avatar
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    And since I didn't really address this fairly in my previous post (though I did allude to it with my comments about Sinclair), Miller isn't really a fair comparison, since Miller never claimed to be writing a Great Allegory for All of Reality.
    Yes, you are correct - Miller is definitely not a True Scotsman. The point was that allegories are perfectly valid means of literary expression and are intended to promote a viewpoint, and they use metaphor and caricatures to make their point.

    Replying to the rest of that post: I already said Goodkind is quite idiotic. You concede that it's Goodkind's outside words which debase his series, but why can't they just be ignored (which I have done for the past 10 years?). Yes, Goodkind likes to spout off on how SoT isn't just a "fantasy series" and he hates "world building" and I'm sure he would love his works to be considered philosophical treatises, but he is a pompous douchebag. That does not, in and of itself, demean the worth of his writing, though, which can be enjoyed by themselves. And even if YOU can't ignore them, that doesn't mean everyone else can't, either.

    Your criticism seems to be just a jumble of "he doesn't agree with me" and ad hominem attacks. Oh well. I don't see this getting anywhere.

  4. #19
    pirate heartbreaker The Man's Avatar
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    Why can't Goodkind's words just be ignored? Because Death of the Author is an idiotic school of literary criticism. I already addressed this. Even ignoring that, let's point out that spending over six thousand pages to write an allegory for the Soviet Union is pretty pointless. It could've been done in less than a thousand, honestly, so for that reason alone it's not exactly a model of literary efficiency.

    What ad hominem attacks have I presented? It appears to me you haven't even read my posts, since you would have seen that I already addressed your argument in my previous post.
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  5. #20
    Quack Shlup's Avatar
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    omg rahl totally had a boner; they said it

  6. #21
    Meat Puppet's Avatar
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    I read them when I was a little kid but I got bored after like, two.

  7. #22
    Quack Shlup's Avatar
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    You were probably tired of being molested via prose.

  8. #23
    Recognized Member G13's Avatar
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    I was planning on reading them. I may still, but I'm not into political bull hidden meanings (That's what I got from The Man's post's). I'll see how I like the first one and go from there.

  9. #24
    Quack Shlup's Avatar
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    Based on the chapter I just read, the meanings aren't very well hidden.

    But I got to picture Bridget Reagan topless twice already. She's so hot.

    Also, most recent episode of the series: epic hot. Boooooner.

  10. #25
    Zachie Chan Recognized Member Ouch!'s Avatar
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    I couldn't get very far into Wizard's First Rule not because of thinly veiled political propaganda pushing, but more because of the blatantly excessive use of cliché for just about every aspect of the story.

  11. #26
    disc jockey to your heart krissy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShlupQuack View Post
    Based on the chapter I just read, the meanings aren't very well hidden.

    But I got to picture Bridget Reagan topless twice already. She's so hot.

    Also, most recent episode of the series: epic hot. Boooooner.
    seriously she makes that show
    and let's be honest, mini malcolm reynolds is pretty hot too

  12. #27
    Quack Shlup's Avatar
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    Mini Malcom Reynolds? xD I'm afraid I don't see the connection, but I still approve.

    omg they're sooooo hot

  13. #28
    disc jockey to your heart krissy's Avatar
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  14. #29
    Quack Shlup's Avatar
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    Eh, ok, maybe a little.

  15. #30
    Shlup's Retired Pimp Recognized Member Raistlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShlupQuack View Post
    You were probably tired of being molested via prose.
    Yeah, Goodkind seems to think wordiness is a virtue... just another way he tries to take after Rand. It becomes obnoxiously overboard in the last four books when the dialogue stops being dialogue and becomes multi-page, endlessly repetitive speeches. In the first 7 books, at least, there are moments of good writing -- and as I said, the characters and their development are the biggest draw of the series.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shlup
    omg rahl totally had a boner; they said it
    So you're... what, 2/3 through WFR? How long does it take you to read a book? It's not like you have a JOB, slacker.

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