The only way to know who is stronger is if they were in a weight lifting contest.
The only way to know who is stronger is if they were in a weight lifting contest.
or a squatting competition! CC showed Zack loved squats, and anyone who played through VII knows that Cloud competes in a squatting competition in order to get the Wig in Wal Market
63% of statistics are made up on the spot.
I disagree with that Kuja for one did definitely try because he resorted to killing himself along with the party for a final desperate attack. I would say similar for Seymour too because after getting defeated twice he would definitely think to try harder in killing these people that keep getting in the way. Although Omnis was weaker than the 2nd Seymour.I've always been of the belief that most FF villains fail cause they feel their "godhood" makes them invincible and thus don't actually try to put any effort into actually destroying the party like they should.
With Sephiroth I think it's almost the same. When it comes to his plans having a chance to be ruined he goes in metamorphosis to a god-like state to slay a party and after he's been defeated by said party, he has to resort to his basic form against Cloud.
I say Cloud is stronger because he still lived after getting gunned down and defeated Sephiroth three times.
Sephiroth was at his strongest in Advent Children. Cloud only did anything because Sephiroth let him. The fight be over with the first strike if Seph had wanted to.
Actually, Sephy was stabbed in the back of his leg, which is why he's limping away with one leg nearly useless when they reach the end-scene on the bridge.Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover
Look at the scene again. Sephy limps away, and Cloud confronts him. Sephy whips his sword around, pushes it into Cloud's chest, and lifts him off the ground, saying "Don't push it". At this point, yes, he is clearly simply toying with Cloud. Then Cloud gets back on his feet, at which point Sephiroth has a WTF moment (I don't remember the actual line, but I think it was "What is this?!"), and then a couple seconds later he is tossed off the bridge. Cloud's strength was shocking to Sephiroth. The greatest hero of the war, who had taken on everything that had been sent his way without breaking a sweat, is fazed by Cloud's power.The AC Ultimania says that Sephiroth wasn't actually putting any effort into his battle with Cloud (who is desperately struggling to stay alive), he toys with him and considering his dialogue with Cloud throughout most of VII its obvious Sephy looks at everyone on the planet as simple single cell organisms.
I've always been of the belief that most FF villains fail cause they feel their "godhood" makes them invincible and thus don't actually try to put any effort into actually destroying the party like they should. Seriously, considering the power Sephy has shown compared to what both Zack or Cloud have shown makes it obvious that Sephy is truly in a league of his own compared to these two. Sephy's arrogance is the true cause of his downfall, not because Cloud is actually stronger than him.
No matter how you look at it, this indicates Cloud is stronger than Zack. Sephiroth doesn't "try" in the entire Nibelheim incident (or for that matter, any time we see him, except possibly the endgame. Even in Crisis Core he doesn't really exert himself). He kills everything in one shot, never looking back. He judges everything to be infinitely weaker than him, and he is right. He doesn't treat Zack any differently than he treats Cloud, he tries to just blow through them both and keep going to Jenova, his goal. The difference is, he totally overwhelms Zack, while Cloud manages to succeed where everyone else, ever had failed.
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YouTube - Crisis Core FFVII English voice over cutscenes pt.10(*spoilers*)
Around 4:20 and on. Looks like he's stabbed in the lower back to me.
And Sephiroth definitely applied himself to the fight with Zack. He did more than just melee fight with him like he did with Cloud in AC. In his fight with Zack he used his teleportation speed, his sword energy strikes and he clearly wanted Zack the hell out of the way so he could get to Jenova.
With Cloud in AC he had no rush to go anywhere. he was playing the entire time.
And Cloud overpowering Sephiroth was shocking th esame way a mother lifting a car off her child would be shocking; adreniline is an amazing thing.
Cloud DUH
Willpower wise, I dun know. Cloud seems pretty weak at all times.
Zack was (SPOILER)killed by mere gunshots. Not to mention he's not the one who killed Sephiroth; Sephiroth threw him around like a ragdoll.
So yeah, Cloud is stronger.
Cloud is a "Warriors-of-Light"-esque character to me, that's why he had a reaction to the Jenova cells whereas Zack did not. Cloud is also the only successful Sephiroth "clone" besides #1, the only one to get powers and make it through a journey.
Oh, sorry, I was ignoring the extremely bad retcon. Since, you know, the remade scene doesn't work at all with the original, nor does it make sense if you look at it on its own terms. If Sephy was trying to get to Jenova, as you claim, why didn't he simply end the assault on Zack after the first two strikes, which knocked Zack into a completely different room, well out of the way of his goal? Even then, he still isn't even breathing hard by the time Zack has gotten the crap beaten out of him, he still is utterly shocked at the power Cloud wields, and he still had several seconds of reaction time before Cloud throws him off the edge.
CC had some excellent points, but that butchery of what was originally an amazing scene was not one of them.
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Except Kuja could have ended the fight 2 seconds in by simply using Ultima, the very fact you fight him only shows that he was toying with them and got careless, which is how I feel most of the battles in the series go. As for Seymour, he's a wuss, the only thing he really had going for him power wise when he was living was Anima and he barely used her. Seymour doesn't count cause its obvious that he is actually weak.
The final battle was more mental and spiritual than actually real and chances are that Sephy is definetly in complete shock after being physically killed. The fact of the matter is that Cloud didn't beat Sephy alone in VII and he only won against him in AC cause Sephy made the same mistake of toying with Cloud and let Cloud get a fatal blow in powered by a last resort of anger.With Sephiroth I think it's almost the same. When it comes to his plans having a chance to be ruined he goes in metamorphosis to a god-like state to slay a party and after he's been defeated by said party, he has to resort to his basic form against Cloud.
He's actually more shocked by a lowly soldier still standing and having a high enough adrenaline to lift him. My problem is that I feel the whole "Sephy was so shocked it allowed Cloud to toss him in" only speaks poorly of Sephy's intelligence and also completely destroys immersion since Cloud tossing Sephy in the way its shown is physically and logically impossible since it would require Sephy to be silly enough to put all his strength into maintaining his stab stance as Cloud lifts him up and throws him over... Sephy was holding the sword one handed the strain of being lifted on his wrist let alone body mechanics would make Sephy just let go of the sword on instinct and ultimately makes this whole scene nothing but epic fail.
I am personally more inclined to believe the Last Order and Before Crisis retcon where Sephy kicks Cloud's ass and then purposely jumps into the Reactor of his own will to carry out his plans. It makes Sephiroth not look retarded and it doesn't have the immersion destroying power of the ridiculous original scene. This scene alone is one of the pivotal reasons where I slap my head and wonder why people like this game cause how can you swallow this lump of bull. You cannot look at this scene with any sense of logic and believe it for what it is.
But Cloud only succeeds cause Sephy is foolish enough to leave himself open and underestimate his opponents. No matter how strong Sephy is he's still squishy and bleeds which in my book means he's kill-able and it wouldn't take as much as you would think. My argument is that Cloud is not actually stronger, Sephy just underestimates him and gets cocky battling him cause he knows where he comes from. Yes, he beats Zack down effortlessly, but when you actually watch some of those fights, Zack is holding his own a bit better than Cloud ever did in AC. Sephy also toys with Cloud whereas he actually fights Zack, even after knocking Zack into the lower levels of the Reactor he follows him down to make sure he takes care of him for good, he's never shown that level of respect to Cloud.No matter how you look at it, this indicates Cloud is stronger than Zack. Sephiroth doesn't "try" in the entire Nibelheim incident (or for that matter, any time we see him, except possibly the endgame. Even in Crisis Core he doesn't really exert himself). He kills everything in one shot, never looking back. He judges everything to be infinitely weaker than him, and he is right. He doesn't treat Zack any differently than he treats Cloud, he tries to just blow through them both and keep going to Jenova, his goal. The difference is, he totally overwhelms Zack, while Cloud manages to succeed where everyone else, ever had failed.
True beauty exists in things that last only for a moment.
Current Mood: And it's been a long December and there's reason to believe. Maybe this year will be better than the last. I can't remember all the times I tried to tell myself. To hold on to these moments as they pass...
Because then the gauntlet had been thrown down. He wasn't about to just leave the bee who stung him alone so it could sting him again.If Sephy was trying to get to Jenova, as you claim, why didn't he simply end the assault on Zack after the first two strikes, which knocked Zack into a completely different room, well out of the way of his goal?
Even in the original Sephiroth wanted some quality time with Jenova. Zack was still capable of fighting and would have gone after Seph againa nd spoiled his joyful reunion.
@WK: It might not make ay sense logically but that's not the point. It's a big hero moment for Cloud. In fact the part with him throwing Sephiroth into the reactor makes the whole agonizingly dull Lifestream segment worth it.
It's why they changed it back, probably. The LO and BC version was such obviously Sephiroth pandering that it really was demeaning to Cloud's growth. So they made it right.
There is nothing that is not bad ass about what Cloud did in LO during this scene. Really the LO version is so much better, it makes Cloud look like a beast and Sephiroth doesn't look like an idiot nor does it make you scratch your head wondering how that was even possible. You get the best of both worlds in the LO version and its far more satisfying overall.
Compare and have fun...
YouTube - Zack and Cloud vs Sephiroth [Full Fight] Last Order Retcon
YouTube - Final Fantasy VII Walkthrough Part 81 The Clouded Truth Bull
True beauty exists in things that last only for a moment.
Current Mood: And it's been a long December and there's reason to believe. Maybe this year will be better than the last. I can't remember all the times I tried to tell myself. To hold on to these moments as they pass...
Yeah no.
Cloud being impaled doesn't impress me.
Cloud being impaled then, through sheer force of will, defeating the seemingly invincible Sephiroth does impress me.
That entire segment in the Lifestream was establishing who Cloud truly was. Up until this point the hero wasn't a hero at all; he was a sham. So how does the game make you understand the true hero that is Cloud?
It's not by having the villain jump to his "end".
If I sat through that Lifestream memory crap iN FF7 only to have Cloud do...NOTHING but cheapshot and then get owned by Sephiroth, I'd have to agree with the haters who say FF7's story sucks. THat just be unforgiveably bad storytelling.
Last edited by Forsaken Lover; 12-04-2009 at 12:53 PM.
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