Quote Originally Posted by Depression Moon View Post
I disagree with that Kuja for one did definitely try because he resorted to killing himself along with the party for a final desperate attack. I would say similar for Seymour too because after getting defeated twice he would definitely think to try harder in killing these people that keep getting in the way. Although Omnis was weaker than the 2nd Seymour.
Except Kuja could have ended the fight 2 seconds in by simply using Ultima, the very fact you fight him only shows that he was toying with them and got careless, which is how I feel most of the battles in the series go. As for Seymour, he's a wuss, the only thing he really had going for him power wise when he was living was Anima and he barely used her. Seymour doesn't count cause its obvious that he is actually weak.

With Sephiroth I think it's almost the same. When it comes to his plans having a chance to be ruined he goes in metamorphosis to a god-like state to slay a party and after he's been defeated by said party, he has to resort to his basic form against Cloud.
The final battle was more mental and spiritual than actually real and chances are that Sephy is definetly in complete shock after being physically killed. The fact of the matter is that Cloud didn't beat Sephy alone in VII and he only won against him in AC cause Sephy made the same mistake of toying with Cloud and let Cloud get a fatal blow in powered by a last resort of anger.

Quote Originally Posted by Skyblade View Post
Look at the scene again. Sephy limps away, and Cloud confronts him. Sephy whips his sword around, pushes it into Cloud's chest, and lifts him off the ground, saying "Don't push it". At this point, yes, he is clearly simply toying with Cloud. Then Cloud gets back on his feet, at which point Sephiroth has a WTF moment (I don't remember the actual line, but I think it was "What is this?!"), and then a couple seconds later he is tossed off the bridge. Cloud's strength was shocking to Sephiroth. The greatest hero of the war, who had taken on everything that had been sent his way without breaking a sweat, is fazed by Cloud's power.
He's actually more shocked by a lowly soldier still standing and having a high enough adrenaline to lift him. My problem is that I feel the whole "Sephy was so shocked it allowed Cloud to toss him in" only speaks poorly of Sephy's intelligence and also completely destroys immersion since Cloud tossing Sephy in the way its shown is physically and logically impossible since it would require Sephy to be silly enough to put all his strength into maintaining his stab stance as Cloud lifts him up and throws him over... Sephy was holding the sword one handed the strain of being lifted on his wrist let alone body mechanics would make Sephy just let go of the sword on instinct and ultimately makes this whole scene nothing but epic fail.

I am personally more inclined to believe the Last Order and Before Crisis retcon where Sephy kicks Cloud's ass and then purposely jumps into the Reactor of his own will to carry out his plans. It makes Sephiroth not look retarded and it doesn't have the immersion destroying power of the ridiculous original scene. This scene alone is one of the pivotal reasons where I slap my head and wonder why people like this game cause how can you swallow this lump of bull. You cannot look at this scene with any sense of logic and believe it for what it is.

No matter how you look at it, this indicates Cloud is stronger than Zack. Sephiroth doesn't "try" in the entire Nibelheim incident (or for that matter, any time we see him, except possibly the endgame. Even in Crisis Core he doesn't really exert himself). He kills everything in one shot, never looking back. He judges everything to be infinitely weaker than him, and he is right. He doesn't treat Zack any differently than he treats Cloud, he tries to just blow through them both and keep going to Jenova, his goal. The difference is, he totally overwhelms Zack, while Cloud manages to succeed where everyone else, ever had failed.
But Cloud only succeeds cause Sephy is foolish enough to leave himself open and underestimate his opponents. No matter how strong Sephy is he's still squishy and bleeds which in my book means he's kill-able and it wouldn't take as much as you would think. My argument is that Cloud is not actually stronger, Sephy just underestimates him and gets cocky battling him cause he knows where he comes from. Yes, he beats Zack down effortlessly, but when you actually watch some of those fights, Zack is holding his own a bit better than Cloud ever did in AC. Sephy also toys with Cloud whereas he actually fights Zack, even after knocking Zack into the lower levels of the Reactor he follows him down to make sure he takes care of him for good, he's never shown that level of respect to Cloud.