Cloud or Zack: Who's Stronger?

[Wolf Kanno]

How is that not impressive, Sephy impales Cloud and Cloud through sheer force of will pulls himself through the Masamune to slam him into a wall. It shows a greater level of tenacity and once again, doesn't have the logical error that only a child could forgive that is Cloud knocking Sephy into the reactor in a manner that makes Sephiroth look like a total loser.

I feel the LO version shows how strong Cloud is but at the same time it shows how menacing Sephy is. Cloud knocking Sephy into the reactor is a poor excuse for heroism and character development cause it basically shows that its Cloud's fault for all the events of VII since Sephy was able to turn this misfortune into his road to godhood. Cloud doesn't win that fight, he accidentally makes the whole situation worse and since we know Sephy lives and comes back stronger, I cannot say this is worthy of being called a "win". Cloud doesn't prove anything here except that he got lucky enough to throw Sephy off his game twice, he proves he's a hero when he finally comes to terms with who he really is and leads the party into the Northern Crater. There is nothing logical or realistic about anything that happenes in the VII/CC version of the Nibelheim incident regarding Sephy and Cloud's minor confrontation. It's childish bull, not excellent storytelling.

[Raistlin]

I don't really understand the significance of the distinction you two are arguing about. Both seem fairly equally realistic: in both, Cloud lifts the Masamune and throws Sephiroth to the side. In one case, he just hits a wall which has a floor under it, and in the other instance there simply doesn't happen to be a floor under Sephiroth. I don't see either case saying more or less about either Cloud or Sephiroth.

[Wolf Kanno]

The problem with the original is that Sephiroth's body position and how he is holding the sword makes it logically unrealistic for Cloud to lift him up and be able to throw him with that force cause Sephy would have realistically just let go of the sword, not to mention that Cloud's movement to reach the ground is partially impossible and would have resulted in him just making his wound far greater without letting him actually touch the floor. The body mechanics of the entire original scene is just unrealistic and flawed.

Having Sephy let Cloud do that just shows how much of a moron Sephy is cause he could simply let go of his own sword, this is ignoring the logic behind body mechanics and physics. Surprised or not, the scene is too long for Cloud to really catch Sephy off guard like that for him not to give in to the amount of pressure Cloud lifting him would have on his wrist. Sephiroth is literally putting his entire body weight onto his wrist for Cloud to lift him and that is just logically preposterous. Gravity and strain would have forced Sephy to let go whether he really wanted to or not regardless of his strength.

Basically, most people look at this scene and think "Cloud is teh awesomness!" I look at it and think "who the smurf would buy this load of bologna?" Most teenagers or adults should catch how utterly unrealistic that all was... Even I was in middle school at the time and caught all this, I don't understand why people choose to ignore such a terrible display of immersion destroying at a critical scene of the title. Its easily my least favorite scene in the game and the one that ultimately (besides Tifa finally telling Cloud the truth at the Northern Crater) that made me decide that VII was terrible in its writing and ultimately factored in another reason why the second disc is terrible.

[Raistlin]

The problem with the original is that Sephiroth's body position and how he is holding the sword makes it logically unrealistic for Cloud to lift him up and be able to throw him with that force cause Sephy would have realistically just let go of the sword, not to mention that Cloud's movement to reach the ground is partially impossible and would have resulted in him just making his wound far greater without letting him actually touch the floor. The body mechanics of the entire original scene is just unrealistic and flawed.

I get it. And from those blocky, indistinct graphics it is very clear that Sephiroth's hand wasn't gripping the sword very tight since his knuckles weren't white and the muscles in his legs weren't tensed...

I think you're looking a little too much into body positions and mechanics. If this was a movie, or even a game with clearer graphics, ok, maybe.

Regarding your last two paragraphs: even ignoring the above graphics argument and the typical "suspension of disbelief," I think you're overly dismissive of two factors: 1) Sephiroth's arrogance in the face of some random guard in his way, and 2) the fact that Sephiroth was ran through just moments before.

Now, I definitely agree that FF7 was poorly written, and that's the main reason that, while it's a fun game with some entertaining characters, I definitely don't rank it anywhere close among my top RPGs. That being said, I don't think that one scene was even near the list of worst examples of poor writing in the game.

[Wolf Kanno]

Its one of two moments and they both generally snowball into other moments which snowball into other moments, which ultimately ruin the experience for me. Basically a few glaring problems starts revealing cracks in the other parts of the story. I ignore some of the graphical limitations but it doesn't change the initial problem of Sephy being that short sighted, despite his arrogance he's not a complete idiot which is what this scene really tells me. Sephiroth is one of the few villains who is actually known for his intelligence in the series and this scene only says he's an idiot and kinda dispels this myth about him.

This is why I prefer the LO version as it makes more sense and I feel it still let's Cloud have his heroic moments but not at the expense of making Sephy look like a complete fool.

YouTube - Crisis Core: C09S08 Goodbye Sephiroth [English Sub]

Above is a variation of the scene as seen in Crisis Core which is a bit more faithful to the original including the immersion destroying part...

On topic though, I would like to point out that looking at Sephy's body mechanics in his fight with Zack, he actually does move towards using both hands to reinforce his attacks which is more than he ever did for Cloud. He even deflects Cloud's attack one handed while being badly injured. Also, for fun and "lulz", look carefully at the scene where Cloud stabs Sephiroth and it becomes apparent that Cloud literally cut him in half from the waist.

[Bolivar]

Having Sephy let Cloud do that just shows how much of a moron Sephy is cause he could simply let go of his own sword, this is ignoring the logic behind body mechanics and physics.

Are you really bringing up logic and body physics in a fantasy game?

And you're really using that as a basis to judge the story?

Wow.

[Sword]

The problem with the original is that Sephiroth's body position and how he is holding the sword makes it logically unrealistic for Cloud to lift him up and be able to throw him with that force cause Sephy would have realistically just let go of the sword, not to mention that Cloud's movement to reach the ground is partially impossible and would have resulted in him just making his wound far greater without letting him actually touch the floor. The body mechanics of the entire original scene is just unrealistic and flawed.

Having Sephy let Cloud do that just shows how much of a moron Sephy is cause he could simply let go of his own sword, this is ignoring the logic behind body mechanics and physics. Surprised or not, the scene is too long for Cloud to really catch Sephy off guard like that for him not to give in to the amount of pressure Cloud lifting him would have on his wrist. Sephiroth is literally putting his entire body weight onto his wrist for Cloud to lift him and that is just logically preposterous. Gravity and strain would have forced Sephy to let go whether he really wanted to or not regardless of his strength.

Basically, most people look at this scene and think "Cloud is teh awesomness!" I look at it and think "who the smurf would buy this load of bologna?" Most teenagers or adults should catch how utterly unrealistic that all was... Even I was in middle school at the time and caught all this, I don't understand why people choose to ignore such a terrible display of immersion destroying at a critical scene of the title. Its easily my least favorite scene in the game and the one that ultimately (besides Tifa finally telling Cloud the truth at the Northern Crater) that made me decide that VII was terrible in its writing and ultimately factored in another reason why the second disc is terrible.

I agree with this. I noticed this was weird on my first play through. Cloud just wiggles a bit and suddenly his gravitational pull is stronger. And physics dictates that Sephy is in control of the situation. But my immersion in the story was still unaffected, because I didn't take his actions literally. I just saw it as a visual model to show roughly what happened, like when you use your imagination when reading a book. For example, in a battle, you know realistically that they aren't all just standing in a line waiting for each other to finish their attacks, buts its the visual model given to us for gameplay purposes. Sorry I sort of rambled there, but I hope its clear enough.

Having Sephy let Cloud do that just shows how much of a moron Sephy is cause he could simply let go of his own sword, this is ignoring the logic behind body mechanics and physics.

Are you really bringing up logic and body physics in a fantasy game?

And you're really using that as a basis to judge the story?

Wow.

I hate it when people say this because it's completely falacious. So its a world where people can use magic, but realistic physics blatantly exist and you can see them in simple things like gravity, anatomy, aerodynamics etc. when you play the game. I mean are you saying that you wouldn't question the game if the rocket took off without the thrusters, or if something fell up for no reason, or if Cloud's biological father was a moogle?

Advanced scientific knowledge clearly exists within FFVII. Do you expect me to believe that people can carry out scientific observations/experiments in a world where its physical laws suddenly randomize themselves at any given time? I know my explanations may be elaborate, but these are simple things that people can and do notice when looking even at face value.








Cloud is stronger IMO.

[Wolf Kanno]

Having Sephy let Cloud do that just shows how much of a moron Sephy is cause he could simply let go of his own sword, this is ignoring the logic behind body mechanics and physics.

Are you really bringing up logic and body physics in a fantasy game?

And you're really using that as a basis to judge the story?

Wow.

If it destroys my suspension of belief and my ability to enjoy the story then yes, I can judge it that way. Sword mostly pointed out what I needed to say on the subject.

Ultimately, we have different criteria for what we consider to be good writing and VII just didn't measure up for me. Yet as I was explaining to Raistlin, this is only one of many logical errors in the game but big ones like this make me notice the smaller ones I was able to ignore up until this point.

I agree with this. I noticed this was weird on my first play through. Cloud just wiggles a bit and suddenly his gravitational pull is stronger. And physics dictates that Sephy is in control of the situation. But my immersion in the story was still unaffected, because I didn't take his actions literally. I just saw it as a visual model to show roughly what happened, like when you use your imagination when reading a book. For example, in a battle, you know realistically that they aren't all just standing in a line waiting for each other to finish their attacks, buts its the visual model given to us for gameplay purposes. Sorry I sort of rambled there, but I hope its clear enough.

When we actually get into rendered 3D models, I have a harder time adding in my imagination like I was able to with older games. Its one of the reasons why I have a difficult time enjoying modern games cause they sorta take the player out of the story since everything is acted out in a better and more realistic manner than their predecessors. Course this might be why I've enjoyed VII a bit more in recent years cause its not as bad as modern titles on account it has not graphically aged well.

[Skyblade]

Look at the scene again. Sephy limps away, and Cloud confronts him. Sephy whips his sword around, pushes it into Cloud's chest, and lifts him off the ground, saying "Don't push it". At this point, yes, he is clearly simply toying with Cloud. Then Cloud gets back on his feet, at which point Sephiroth has a WTF moment (I don't remember the actual line, but I think it was "What is this?!"), and then a couple seconds later he is tossed off the bridge. Cloud's strength was shocking to Sephiroth. The greatest hero of the war, who had taken on everything that had been sent his way without breaking a sweat, is fazed by Cloud's power.

He's actually more shocked by a lowly soldier still standing and having a high enough adrenaline to lift him. My problem is that I feel the whole "Sephy was so shocked it allowed Cloud to toss him in" only speaks poorly of Sephy's intelligence and also completely destroys immersion since Cloud tossing Sephy in the way its shown is physically and logically impossible since it would require Sephy to be silly enough to put all his strength into maintaining his stab stance as Cloud lifts him up and throws him over... Sephy was holding the sword one handed the strain of being lifted on his wrist let alone body mechanics would make Sephy just let go of the sword on instinct and ultimately makes this whole scene nothing but epic fail.

I am personally more inclined to believe the Last Order and Before Crisis retcon where Sephy kicks Cloud's ass and then purposely jumps into the Reactor of his own will to carry out his plans. It makes Sephiroth not look retarded and it doesn't have the immersion destroying power of the ridiculous original scene. This scene alone is one of the pivotal reasons where I slap my head and wonder why people like this game cause how can you swallow this lump of bull. You cannot look at this scene with any sense of logic and believe it for what it is.

No matter how you look at it, this indicates Cloud is stronger than Zack. Sephiroth doesn't "try" in the entire Nibelheim incident (or for that matter, any time we see him, except possibly the endgame. Even in Crisis Core he doesn't really exert himself). He kills everything in one shot, never looking back. He judges everything to be infinitely weaker than him, and he is right. He doesn't treat Zack any differently than he treats Cloud, he tries to just blow through them both and keep going to Jenova, his goal. The difference is, he totally overwhelms Zack, while Cloud manages to succeed where everyone else, ever had failed.

But Cloud only succeeds cause Sephy is foolish enough to leave himself open and underestimate his opponents. No matter how strong Sephy is he's still squishy and bleeds which in my book means he's kill-able and it wouldn't take as much as you would think. My argument is that Cloud is not actually stronger, Sephy just underestimates him and gets cocky battling him cause he knows where he comes from. Yes, he beats Zack down effortlessly, but when you actually watch some of those fights, Zack is holding his own a bit better than Cloud ever did in AC. Sephy also toys with Cloud whereas he actually fights Zack, even after knocking Zack into the lower levels of the Reactor he follows him down to make sure he takes care of him for good, he's never shown that level of respect to Cloud.

Nowhere did I say that he was thrown off because he was shocked. He was surprised by Cloud's power, but that wasn't the reason he was thrown off, and please don't think that is what I was saying. He was shocked at Cloud's power, yes, but the reason he was thrown off is because Cloud was that damn powerful. He was stronger than Sephiroth, to an extent that was not only enough to shatter Sephiroth's views on his own omnipotence, but enough to actually surpass Sephy's strength and let cloud defeat him.

Your own version makes Sephy seem far more pathetic and stupid than mine does. Rather than being beaten by something physically stronger than him, Sephiroth is defeated and his entire plan is endangered simply because he doesn't bother to try harder when a weakling begins to attack him? "Oh, I could squash this guy like a bug, but since he's slightly stronger than I expected him to be, so I'm going to let him derail my plans for five years."

Which brings me to the Before Crisis comment. Sorry, but him winding up in the Lifestream was not a good thing for Sephy's plan. It dispersed the JENOVA cells enough that Sephy didn't have enough to manipulate for his plans, and was largely the cause of the five year delay between the Nibelheim incident and the Jenova war. Remember, Sephy had only part of JENOVA with him when he took his little trip to the center of the lifestream. The majority of it wound up in the Shinra labs or scattered among the Sephiroth clones and SOLDIER members. Had Sephiroth not wound up in the Lifestream, he would have been able to collect all of JENOVA at once, skipping the entire Reunion aspect that takes five years and half of FFVII to complete. He would have had much more control, and would likely have been able to complete his plans much faster and never have had Aeris's interference at all.

The problem with the original is that Sephiroth's body position and how he is holding the sword makes it logically unrealistic for Cloud to lift him up and be able to throw him with that force cause Sephy would have realistically just let go of the sword, not to mention that Cloud's movement to reach the ground is partially impossible and would have resulted in him just making his wound far greater without letting him actually touch the floor. The body mechanics of the entire original scene is just unrealistic and flawed.

Having Sephy let Cloud do that just shows how much of a moron Sephy is cause he could simply let go of his own sword, this is ignoring the logic behind body mechanics and physics. Surprised or not, the scene is too long for Cloud to really catch Sephy off guard like that for him not to give in to the amount of pressure Cloud lifting him would have on his wrist. Sephiroth is literally putting his entire body weight onto his wrist for Cloud to lift him and that is just logically preposterous. Gravity and strain would have forced Sephy to let go whether he really wanted to or not regardless of his strength.

Basically, most people look at this scene and think "Cloud is teh awesomness!" I look at it and think "who the smurf would buy this load of bologna?" Most teenagers or adults should catch how utterly unrealistic that all was... Even I was in middle school at the time and caught all this, I don't understand why people choose to ignore such a terrible display of immersion destroying at a critical scene of the title. Its easily my least favorite scene in the game and the one that ultimately (besides Tifa finally telling Cloud the truth at the Northern Crater) that made me decide that VII was terrible in its writing and ultimately factored in another reason why the second disc is terrible.

Surprisingly incorrect, coming from you, Wolf. Cloud's abilities there are perfectly understandable, at least, the way I saw them. Had Cloud simply shifted around, yeah, he would have been unable to reach the ground, as he had no purchase or way to exert his own strength. But, since he grabs the sword, it all works out (though the blocky style makes the specifics somewhat vague). By grabbing it that way, he would be free to move his own body around (though, yes, that would have expanded the wound, that only makes his later feat that more impressive). Had he shifted his body upward and then downward, he would have built up momentum. Not a lot, necessarily, but just enough to reach the ground, giving his own feat purchase and allowing him to use his own strength to toss Sephy off the side.

[Wolf Kanno]

I'm not quoting that for the sake of us all but here's the answers.

1) Actually falling into the Lifestream helped Sephiroth cause it allowed him to increase his powers and gain mass amounts of knowledge about the Planet and its history... such as the Black Materia. The delay with his body also allowed him to stay undercover as he physically reconstructed himself and became much more powerful cause everyone assumed he had died. He had no known plan before he retrieved Jenova at the reactor, at this point of time he was still referring to Jenova as an Ancient. The Lifestream taught him about the truth behind Jenova (though he doesn't say anything about it until after your party finds out at which point he keeps up the whole. "I must avenge the Ancients!" speech) so yes, the whole plan was actually started because of Cloud's mistake.

As for the interpretation of the scene, I can't accept yours, Sephiroth is a being created to be the ultimate soldier whereas Cloud is still very much human at this point and even after going through the process to become a SOLDIER, Sephiroth is still strong enough to toy with him and smack him around like a ragdoll. Cloud is physically strong and I'm certain that adrenaline helped him overpower an injured Sephiroth, mostly cause he actually tried to fight back and was strong enough to catch him off guard. Sephiroth would expect a SOLDIER like Zack to pull that stunt off but a lowly infantrymen who can't even make it into SOLDIER or even man up and tell his friends he didn't reach his goal? The fact is, Cloud is not stronger than Sephiroth as much as he is able to take advantage of his opponents faults to eke out a slim victory. Having Cloud physically strong enough o beat Sephiroth from the beginning ruins his growth as a character and diminishes everything about SOLDIER and Sephiroth.


2) Even swinging his legs and holding the Blade Cloud would be unable to generate enough force to get him back to the ground, especially since he's stabbed in the shoulder in all version meaning his one arm is hurt and it's too high for him to gain proper leverage with his body core. He simply cannot get his body to the ground with his own strength (unless you are suggesting he's Son Goku ) unless you were going to say he caused enough shift in his weight to force Sephiroth to let him down at which point Sephiroth should not be "amazed at his power" cause all he did was shift around enough to make skewering him up that high uncomfortable for Sephiroth and forced him to let him down.

[BarelySeeAtAll]

In answer to your question...

I am

[Skyblade]

As for the interpretation of the scene, I can't accept yours, Sephiroth is a being created to be the ultimate soldier whereas Cloud is still very much human at this point and even after going through the process to become a SOLDIER, Sephiroth is still strong enough to toy with him and smack him around like a ragdoll.

Sure, Sephy was created to be the ultimate machine, but he was created to be the ultimate machine by Hojo, whose idea of science was, let's face it, shiny buttons and bubbling potions, with no real logic or procedure behind it at all. Had Gast actually been the architect of Sehpiroth, I might be impressed by his "constructed to be the ultimate killing machine" background, but since he was created by Hojo, I'm just surprised that he even survived long enough to fight in the war. Hell, Dr. Nefarious is a better mad scientist than Hojo.

He simply cannot get his body to the ground with his own strength (unless you are suggesting he's Son Goku)

Dude, did you miss the hair?

The facts remain as such: Zack's attack on Sephy failed. Zack was killed by Sephiroth (in the original, with a single swing of his sword). Cloud's attack on Sephy succeeded. Both Sephy and Dr. Insane Laughter are surprised by Cloud's strength, while neither one had seemed to notice anything really special about Zack (in the original game, anyway).

[the AJman]

The facts remain as such: Zack's attack on Sephy failed. Zack was killed by Sephiroth (in the original, with a single swing of his sword). Cloud's attack on Sephy succeeded. Both Sephy and Dr. Insane Laughter are surprised by Cloud's strength, while neither one had seemed to notice anything really special about Zack (in the original game, anyway).

Actually, Zach was killed by the Shinra military when Zack and Cloud escaped from the Shinra Manison. Crisis Core was pretty darn accurate to the original in that regard.

[Shadow Bahamut]

wtf are you guys talking about with "realism"?? the clue is in the name of the game title "final FANTASY", its not supposed to be "realistic".

having said that, i would have to say both are around equal. Zack took on 2 1st Class Soliders and won, and damn near the whole of the Shin-ra army, and with that many holes in him after being shot to death, i doubt Cloud would have withstood the same damage tbh.

Besides, who says Cloud stuffed the Original Sephiroth with his own sword...Sephy was in North Crater from what i knew, until the nearer the end.
(Btw, i havent played the full game in over 5 years, my memory of the game is slightly faded, and i haven't played CC in over a year).

Infact, Zack was only infused with a standard amount of Mako...like all other SOLDIER members. Who knows how much Hojo gave to Cloud, along with the Jenova cells, which must have ramped his body to ridiculous amounts of power, rending the argument: "him killing Sephy in AC = he's more powerful", useless...

[Rikku_Yuffie_girl]

I love Cloud, but I would have to say Zack