Hundreds overdose on homeopathic remedies

[LunarWeaver]

I used to lol at this girl in high school who would get sick all the time in Medical Terminology when we were reading about illnesses and seeing pictures and such. I should have spit in some orange juice and told her it was a master cure for the nice price of $50 or something.

Ah, I don't know much about much or anything about homeopathy other than its name is funny. I'll just agree with Raistlin because his avatar has a hat.

[Raistlin]

There's currently no reason to believe that acupuncture is anything more than a placebo, just like homeopathy (that I've seen anyway). Here is a good overview, along with links to real studies.

Your childhood experience, rather than showing a lack of a placebo effect like you claim, instead is a stronger case for a psychological response, in that children are more easily focused on other things. An easy explanation for an immediate response, beyond a placebo effect, is endorphins released in response to the needle puncture (which would coincide with the fact that, as the article above mentioned, "sham" acupunctures have results indistinguishable from "real" acupunctures).

EDIT: in response to Miriel.

[AntRid]

Caffeine gives you an adrenaline rush, Poison Ivy gives you a rash, Red Hot chilly Peppers are red hot. Are these just placebo effects? Is it really a stretch to believe that mixing herbs together can have different effects on the body?

[rubah]

Homeopathy is not herbs.

"Naturopathy" is herbs.

(and allopathy is western medicine, doctors, pills, etc)

Homeopathy is water. It's also poop

I'll repeat this as many times as is necessary for it to become clear.

[Raistlin]

Caffeine gives you an adrenaline rush, Poison Ivy gives you a rash, Red Hot chilly Peppers are red hot. Are these just placebo effects? Is it really a stretch to believe that mixing herbs together can have different effects on the body?

As rubah said, homeopathy is water. And did you miss the part where I said that there are natural herbs with an effect? Also, the fact that X works is not any sort of evidence for Y working, so your statement makes no sense to begin with.

[Miriel]

There's currently no reason to believe that acupuncture is anything more than a placebo, just like homeopathy (that I've seen anyway). Here is a good overview, along with links to real studies.

Your childhood experience, rather than showing a lack of a placebo effect like you claim, instead is a stronger case for a psychological response, in that children are more easily focused on other things. An easy explanation for an immediate response, beyond a placebo effect, is endorphins released in response to the needle puncture (which would coincide with the fact that, as the article above mentioned, "sham" acupunctures have results indistinguishable from "real" acupunctures).

EDIT: in response to Miriel.

If endorphins were released cause of the 3 needles places in my finger, then woohoo! Endorphins!

My sprained finger at no point immediately after or in any of the following days/weeks felt any pain from the injury. Once the pain was gone, it was gone. It's more crooked than my other fingers which is kind of a bummer, but otherwise, 3 little needles and that was it. No other treatment necessary. If that's the kind of placebo effect that something can have on a child who had no beliefs one way or the other about acupuncture, then god damn. That's kinda miraculous. And I don't really see what's so wrong with that. If it is all psychological, how awesome is it that your mind can cure you? I think that's great.

So as far as I'm concerned, it was effective and that's all that matters. Plus, it was like $10. Pretty worth it if you ask me. Like I said, this is all anecdotal and I don't expect anyone's minds to change cause of my own experience. I just find complete disregard for anything other than western medicine to be a limited way of thinking.

[Mirage]

Placebo sometimes works though :p

Is that supposed to justify such scammers?

No :p

[krissy]

hey now

gay people can be doctors too

[theundeadhero]

xD

[Moon Rabbits]

hahahahhaha krissy winssssss i lol'd.

Anyway, I've always wanted to try acupuncture because I've heard a lot of people have similar experiences to Miriel's. Aaaaaand, like she said ... placebo effect or no; your brain is still tricking you into being cured so why not?

As for homeopathy, yeh I'm pretty sure that's a load of but w/e.

I think you're a little too faithful in the Western/European medical model, though, Raistlin Overmedicalization leads to as many problems as fake cures, imo~ Ie. the ridiculous overmedicalization of sexual disorders which are, more often than not, psychological problems and not physiological ones.

[Raistlin]

I think you're a little too faithful in the Western/European medical model, though, Raistlin Overmedicalization leads to as many problems as fake cures, imo~ Ie. the ridiculous overmedicalization of sexual disorders which are, more often than not, psychological problems and not physiological ones.

There's a distinct difference between relying on "western" medicine specifically and relying on medicine that has actual evidence behind it, and is required to be relatively "safe and effective" for doctors to even utilize. "Alternative" medicine is not beholden to any such regulatory standards. In fact, hemeopathic remedies and other alternative medication are explicitly exempt from FDA regulations on their safety or efficacy (and wouldn't be on the market if they were required to prove the latter).

Your example of "overmedicalization" is more of a problem with the more subjective standards of psychology. Take it up with the DSM. The effects of homeopathy, acupuncture, etc. can be objectively determined. A better example would be the overprescription of antibiotics leading to higher instances of resistant bacteria and autoimmune disorders, but that doesn't rebut the efficacy of the drugs (because they obviously work), but simply shows that their use can have negative effects.

Miriel: Nothing you've said contradicts a placebo result, even if anecdotal evidence was at all useful. In response to your "limited way of thinking" comment, I'll go back to what I said to Moon Rabbits: how is it bad to rely on medication that has actual evidence and testing and research backing its conclusions? I agree that it's limited, but in a responsible, realistic, and objective fashion.

And I <3 krissy.

[Miriel]

I never denied that there could be a placebo effect. I specifically said that if there was a placebo effect, and that effect was strong enough to result in complete eradication of pain, then I don't see anything wrong with that. If there are methods which can allow your own body to heal itself without the aid of any other medication, I find that pretty cool. It's just another method of healing. You're acting like a placebo effect is somehow ineffectual? Why? If it works, it works. Mind over matter is pretty awesome in my opinion.

I think it would be great if different forms of healing and treatment were studied and regulated, but for the longest time (at least in the US) it was illegal to even practice any of this stuff. I mean, it's still illegal today in some states to practice midwifery. Some states let you get a license, but others don't even allow that option. There were huuuge efforts to block the licensing of chiropractors since chiropractics was seen as unscientific and harmful to the public. But nowadays, you can even have a visit to the chiropractor covered in your insurance plan. The initial response to anything outside the mainstream seems to be complete dismissal, which isn't really the right attitude. It's the kind of attitude I think you're sporting.

I have health insurance with Kaiser Permanente, I take antibiotics for infections, I go to pharmacies to get prescriptions filled, I don't have any problem with mainstream medicine. But I'm not going to close myself off to other possibilities.

I think more research done on this stuff is a GOOD thing. I think the best doctor to have would be the kind who has knowledge of more than the very strict set of treatments available in the mainstream. Cancer treatment is a good example of the current battle to introduce more alternative methods to treating cancer and the incredible reluctance of the medical community to entertain any thoughts outside of chemotherapy. I like having options and dislike the idea that there is only one way to attack a problem and it's THIS way and all other methods are just silly and tricks of your brain and blah blah blah.

I get what you're saying, I really do. It's just I personally really don't care if other people think they're being cured by water. I really don't. As long as people aren't being harmed by it, I don't see the point in being all condescending and OH NOES HUMANITY! about it.

[Aerith's Knight]

Acupuncture has worked for me in the past. I dunno what's so laughable about it, it's something that's been practiced for thousands of years and millions of people benefiting from it. Or at least claiming to. And I doubt any placebo effect had a part in my experiences since A) I hate needles, B) I was more or less forced into doing it by my parents with little confidence that it would work C) the first time I had it done, I was sobbing over a sprained finger and about 9 years old. Not exactly the best mental condition to be psychologically influenced by any perceived benefits of acupuncture. I wasn't even aware of what was happening to me, all I knew was that I was in pain and suddenly I wasn't anymore. I'm sure going to a regular doctor, I would have been just fine, probably better than fine. But we didn't have insurance and acupuncture did the trick so there you go.

Chiropractic practices were seen as alternative medicine for the longest time, but now it's fairly well accepted form of treatment. I don't think you should laugh off any and all alternative treatments just cause you have a specific idea of what works and what doesn't.

I don't know enough about homeopathy to make any sort of judgment about it.

I think acupuncture is basically about killing nerves, not blood flow. You think you got better because you don't feel the pain anymore, but that just masks the problem. Pain is there for a reason.

I think that if you wanted to really redirect blood flow, you'd need far more needles than they use, most likely bigger too.

[rubah]

The FDA has already outlawed snake oil and "patented remedies", so they ought to do the same in this case.

The harm comes when people <i>don't</i> get cured, and realize that it's too late to try something more effective.

[Shlup]

I don't know why you all are still posting, krissy already won the thread.

Whatever. OUTLAW LYING! The stupid should be protected, especially if they have my money.