a return to one of the great games of the series?

[Flying Arrow]

[QUOTE=VeloZer0;2794525]

Speaking of plot, does anyone feel that the world of FFXIII is setting it up to reek of social commentary?

It's been pretty obvious to me from the beginning and is one of the reasons why I was so initially put off. Hopefully there will be some interesting spins on the standard fare of JRPG social commentary, but the trailers make it look as ham-fisted and melodramatic as anything.

[seiferalmasy2]

Speaking with a Square Enix artist who was proudly showing off her portfolio, we asked her if she was just as proud of her work on FFXIII. “Of course,” she said. So we asked what she’d been working on that day. She paused, “A rock. I’ve been working on a single rock that appears in only one scene, for three seconds, for the past three days.”

that is what it has come to. I am selling my ps3 tomorrow on ebay and buying an xbox 360. And the reason is that MGS4 and FF13 are not up to it, whilst Hironobu is going strong with a game I really want to play "Lost Odyssey", and that has Nobuo who also jumped ship.

So there we are , end of an era for me. I will probably also buy a ps2 so I can play the good games.

Just going to point out that Nobuo hasn't jumped ship. He's working freelance now. He's doing the entire soundtrack for FFXIV, for example.

Also, just because they've paid intense attention to graphical detail in FFXIII does not necessarily mean that they've shirked everything else in favor of it. That's a pretty drastic conclusion to jump to. Square Enix has a lot of resources at their disposal. The person designing those rocks generally has nothing to do with the rest of the game anyway, so I fail to see how the uncited quote is relevant.

When you spend 3 days ona rock that appears for 3 seconds, it is very relevant imho. It shows that grapgics have become the god and that manpower and finance is being ridiculously squandered. This is not what games are. Games are gameplay, story. They are not 3 day obsessions drawing 1 single rock. And it isn't just that, it is 100 other things that are wrong with XIII, from linear gameplay to AI controlled characters, from shops at a save point, to a healed party after a battle.

The game is a cutscene fest and obsession and that quote proves it. As for uncited: Final Fantasy XIII (Import) (PS3) review | NowGamer

I doubt they are lying.

Also, Nobuo is part of mistwalker's main team, even though he can work freelance. He has not worked fully on any none online game since FFX (and even there it was 1/3)

[Vyk]

I'm just going to go out on a limb and assume that Square Enix has the money to pay a very large number of people to work on a very very wide number of things in this game for a very long period of time. Be it a three dimensional rock worked on diligently by a rendering artist or a piece of music by a composer or a character quirk written in by the writer or whatever. Graphics may be a huge focus, they can afford to, so why not? But everything else is presumably a focus as well. They can afford to focus on things all over the board, for a long period of time

[seiferalmasy2]

I wish there was a way to argue with this review

GZay2Stay's reader review of Final Fantasy XIII for PlayStation 3

But....the more I read it the more I realise he is spot on....

- No towns.
- No shops.
- No conversable NPCs.
- No side-quests.
- No mini-games.
- No airship.
- No world map.

The majority of the time spent making this game went to the graphics and non-interactive cut-scenes but none of these aspects are important to make a great gameplay experience; none of these will help make video games be regarded as a major art form.

The bottom line is simple: If you're buying looking for the sexiest and most beautiful looking interactive movie ever made then buy this without hesitation. However, If you're looking for a RPG with more than just pretty graphics and instead with good RPG game design and interactive storytelling then you should avoid it

.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

You do realize that they stated that at one point there was about 300 people working on this project? One girl taking three days for rock that appears for three seconds may be a bit over-the-top in details, but FFXIII was announced in 2006 (if I recall correctly), so they've been working on it for 3 years, perhaps even a bit longer than that. Three days on a rock doesn't seem like a big deal especially given that at one point there was 300 people working on the whole project. Also, Square Enix has always produced, at least with it's FF series, gorgeous scenes for the given technology.

A way to argue with the review would to be to actually play the game yourself. Unless you are fluent in Japanese or have enough skill to get by, I doubt you imported it. For a game where the reviews have been so across the board and polarized, I think you are being a bit preemptive about declaring it as marking "an end of an era".

[RedPouch]

I can't believe this much griping is being made over a game that hasn't even been officially released in the US yet. This is ridiculous. How about we wait until the damn game is made available to people that aren't going to import it from Japan before we make judgments like this. Pretty sure that lady or whoever was trying to exaggerate how much work is being put into FF XIII's graphical detail to try and show off. But even if she isn't exaggerating, I think we can still safely assume that there are other people on the project besides her alone. I seriously doubt they all got together and said "hey guys, let's make a BAD decision and make a terrible game that's only redeeming qualities are graphics and a good battle system".

I'll admit that I'm not like mega excited about this game, but I seriously doubt it's going to be a "terrible" experience or anything. Keep in mind that this is SE we're talking about here. Although they've made some questionable decisions lately in terms of their games, I'd hardly call them "stupid". If they're making some bold changes from a traditional RPG, then they're probably banking on other qualities for good reasons. Of course, there's a chance this could all flop, but it seems to be having acceptable success in Japan, so it'll probably do fine here too. Let's wait to see it for ourselves before we jump on the "oh my god, I can't believe they did THAT" bandwagon.

[Vyk]

All this actually works for me

- No towns. Wandering around aimlessly talking to people that don't matter. Glad I don't have to do it
- No shops. Not the same as no shopping and possibly the loss of even more pointless conversations, which is no loss at all to me. You can still shop
- No conversable NPCs. Is talking to pointless people really that important? Unless you're talking about characters that guide you through the story. If this is about people in towns, again, better off without them
- No side-quests. I don't know that they're all that necessary. I think the FF series started to get a little too addicted to the idea of side-quests after a while. And its been a long time since I enjoyed any of them. So I'd be happy if they stop. Plus I hear the game is plenty long without artificially increasing playtime
- No mini-games. Basically the same as above. Mini-games only started in FF7 and the previous games weren't considered lacking without them. Just more pointlessly bloating playtime with stuff that would probably just annoy me anyway. Again, no loss to me
- No airship. Is it really needed? I'll grant that this staple has been around most frequently in the series. But lots of video games and RPGs get by okay without an airship. Its more of an icon than a necessity
- No world map. I could re-hash my statement about pointlessly bloating playtime due to aimless wandering. But I'm content

Sorry for the people that want a seven course meal. Sometimes the developers think their main dish is good enough. Personally I find the parallels eest pointed out both amusing and profound. FFT is considered by many to be one of the best RPGs out there. Let alone best in the series. And it had very few of these things too. Different play-style yes. But completely proved the idea that all those things are just icing. But with a tastey enough cake sometimes you don't need icing :] At least, sometimes I don't

Some people are graphics whores. Some people are content whores. Graphics may not make a game, but artificially bloating it with content doesn't either. I'm in it for the experience. So we'll see how the experience is

[Ouch!]

As I understand it, whether these lacking elements upset you or not is heavily dependent on how you end up feeling about the story. I'm not sure who it was that stated it, and I can't be assed to look it up, but if the plot is better served by being a linear experience with minimal distractions along the way, this might not be such a bad thing. I'm willing to wait and see how I feel about it.

Being linear isn't necessarily a bad thing. It can work, it just depends on how they make it work. Not every game needs to be a sandbox.

[Wolf Kanno]

- No towns. Wandering around aimlessly talking to people that don't matter. Glad I don't have to do it

Except these places help to create a sense of scope for the player, its difficult to create a compelling story regarding save the world when you have no attachment to the world. The places you go and the people you meet help to paint a bigger picture of the ordeal that is ahead of your characters. Tactics still had towns and they still had histories.

- No shops. Not the same as no shopping and possibly the loss of even more pointless conversations, which is no loss at all to me. You can still shop

This one has been exaggerated and it may serve to be better facilitated as a means of convenience as opposed to a convenient excuse for the inclusion of towns. My real problem with the way shops work in XIII is that everything I've read makes them sound like the shops in VIII and X which were so poorly managed I wonder why even bother. The inventory will most likely always be far behind the items you find on the field and the lackluster equipment system makes me sad that I can't have optimal customization.

- No conversable NPCs. Is talking to pointless people really that important? Unless you're talking about characters that guide you through the story. If this is about people in towns, again, better off without them

This goes back to the argument of towns overall, NPC's allow you to get a better sense of the world and the people you are trying to help. Its a shame this is going to be removed so strongly as I feel XII was on the right track and I feel the Persona games have truly shown me how to create proper NPCs that do more than tell you the same information over and over again. These games showed me how easy it really is to create NPCs that feel less like automation's and more as being you can empathize with. Its a shame XIII is choosing to remove them as other RPG games have finally started to get them right.

- No side-quests. I don't know that they're all that necessary. I think the FF series started to get a little too addicted to the idea of side-quests after a while. And its been a long time since I enjoyed any of them. So I'd be happy if they stop. Plus I hear the game is plenty long without artificially increasing playtime

This is actually wrong, there are sidequests but much like FFX they are relegated to opening up later in the game than I feel they should. Once again, as long as they are done well, I feel sidequests are great for world building as they allow you to see more of the world unrelated to the plot. The Mark Hunts of XII gave you a wealth of imagination that goes into the Ivalice world as well as the sidequests found FFTactics. To me sidequests are only meaningless when they don't bring anything to the world like the Monster Arena in FFX or the Chocobo side-quests; once again, be eliminating these, I feel you are doing a disservice to the world and to the players as you limit your avenue for creating a cohesive world that feels real. Luckily, from what I've read of XIII, the side-quests of XIII are like XII's even down to having a bit of story attached to them.

- No mini-games. Basically the same as above. Mini-games only started in FF7 and the previous games weren't considered lacking without them. Just more pointlessly bloating playtime with stuff that would probably just annoy me anyway. Again, no loss to me

This depends on the game, I like when mini-games are not overused throughout the game but are also used to enhance the story. I feel VII and IX actually hit a pretty decent balance though there are a few occasions I feel it does detract from the game. When its tied to a story element and gives the player some control I feel it empowers the player in a good way and helps with immersion.

- No airship. Is it really needed? I'll grant that this staple has been around most frequently in the series. But lots of video games and RPGs get by okay without an airship. Its more of an icon than a necessity
- No world map. I could re-hash my statement about pointlessly bloating playtime due to aimless wandering. But I'm content

I don't see it as bloating time as much as I see it as exploration and better understanding of a world. I love exploring the map and trying to stumble upon hidden secrets and such. Even better is when I can find a town that is not relevant to the story but helps add to the world by talking to NPCs about non-story related events in the world, shop for decent items, and help to create a world that goes beyond the doomsday scenario your party conveniently finds themselves in.

I guess overall is that my main point here is Immersion, its hard to give a damn about what's going on in the story without some background information to help the player reach some moral and ethical conclusion. A great world design can make or break a game. One of the challenges that XIII is going to have for me is trying to make me actually care about what's going on its world, I might care for the going-ons of my favorite characters but if I don't like them then I lose another way to create an attachment to the story. You should not think of the world design as simply a means to create artificial gameplay (arguably, the whole exp./level system does more of this than side-quests and and mini-games) but rather view it as a character in itself. XIII is going to have to try very hard to convince me that Pulse and Cocoon are worth my time or I will quickly grow bored as I find it difficult to believe any of the characters will be so compelling to keep me glued to the title.

I disagree with the person who claimed FFX had a crappy plot.
You could argue it could have been executed better but I thought the plot was excellent.

I could bore you to tears with pages of arguments as to why FFX is a bad game overall but I'm pretty sure everyone here is tired of listening to my stance on the subject as I've done this several times.

[Raistlin]

I am just going to say that I agree with WK on basically everything. He nailed my opinion on the matter in more detail than I would have given.

[Vyk]

I'll grant all that stuff missing could have helped paint a bitter picture of the world and made it more engrossing. My problem is I haven't enjoyed how Square has done that stuff recently. Its hard for me to miss something I haven't even enjoyed for so long. But I will agree at least the -opportunities- those things opened up are now lost. I just think, for me anyway, interesting NPCs and atmospheric towns that draw you better into the story have been better found in other places. Recent Final Fantasys just haven't fit my style, I guess, and since this one is so different, and rather than trying something new with things that have annoyed me in the past, they're just putting all that on the chopping block, I'm not disheartened much. But indeed, all very valid points, Wolf. And thanks for expanding on some of the more misleading aspects, since I haven't been following reviews and mostly just going off of people's gripes

[McLovin']

There's gotta be sidequests...

Even FFT had sidequests. There can't be none.

[RedPouch]

I am just going to say that I agree with WK on basically everything. He nailed my opinion on the matter in more detail than I would have given.

Same here. Part of the beauty of making your vision of a world be made into something as interactive as a game is to add many elements to create a high level of depth for your universe. I'm going to wait until I actually play this game first before I make any quick judgments on what's been "stripped" from the expectations of this game.

However, let's assume I'm not Khalin, but some random typical RPG-player that waltzed in and saw what Vyk just said. A likely response from such a person might be along the lines of "why even bother playing an RPG if you don't want any of these things?", as there are numerous other kinds of games that are basically all graphics+battle system that run along a storyline with little else. And by the way Vyk, the point of that statement isn't really directed to try and take a shot at you or anything. What I'm actually trying to get at is the fact that I'm a little curious about what exactly will define FF XIII as an "RPG" in this case. I'm also worried of this potentially triggering a trend of companies trying to "expand their horizons" [ie try to copy elements of this "new" way of doing "RPG" games] where many new RPG's will just strip most of the classic elements we like, all because they're trying to be "unique" and "different" for the sake of being "unique" and "different" [even though it's just following a trend in the end]. I might be overly-worrying to the point of silliness, but things like this have happened before.

[Vyk]

No I get your point. And the second half of your last paragraph actually touched on the counter point that just occured to me. Square's done a lot of "different" stuff with the series in the last few entries. FFXI was an online rpg. FFXII was basically a sandbox rpg. Suppose FFXIII is intended to be more of an action/adventure rpg. The fans expected Square to stay formulaic to a certain degree. And they never said every game would follow any kind of formula. Disappointing maybe. But its their ball to play with I suppose

And to honestly answer your hypothetical question, I really fell out of the JRPG formula for some reason a long time ago. And I miss them, but can't get into them anymore. This one's apparently stream-lined. I'm not gonna lie, I can understand the JRPG fans that want all the content and formula feeling robbed. But it works for me because I'm basically getting an abridged JRPG. Which I'll be the first to admit is a bit shameless lol But then again... it works for me :/

[Flying Arrow]

- No towns. Wandering around aimlessly talking to people that don't matter. Glad I don't have to do it

Except these places help to create a sense of scope for the player, its difficult to create a compelling story regarding save the world when you have no attachment to the world. The places you go and the people you meet help to paint a bigger picture of the ordeal that is ahead of your characters. Tactics still had towns and they still had histories.

While I generally agree here (and with most of WK's opinions), I'm actually quite interested in seeing if and how SE can pull off creating a vibrant, immersive world while at the same time paring out all the staples of the role-playing genre. In other words, the player may not need to see the world being in danger if he or she can already feel it. Of course, all the staples exist for a reason, but their necessity and usefulness from game to game completely depends on the designers' skill and creativity in implementing them into the whole. In the case of FFXIII, maybe SE have developed some serious Hemingway-esque skills of understatement when it comes to world-building.