shuyin and tidus (spoilers)

[sir helix]

i just replaid x-2 and x and in that order and it brought and interesting point to me.

tidus is a relfection of the fayth thinking of shuyin from the real zanercan, and when DZ came tobe then dream shuyin became tidus, it makes you wonder what the real jecht was like, and when tidus went to the farplane why wasn't he effected by the pyreflies like auron was and who was that woman that he seen, if you go off of logic on this sence his mother didnt realy exist in the first place how could she have ended up in the farplane? tidus isn't there.

wait now that im thinking, all three of them, tidus, Auron and Jecht spoke to yuna while she was fighting vegnagun, now i'm wondering how they spoke to them sence the pyreflies arn;t really the dead but recreate the memorie for the person OMG.

sorry for rambling on my own discussion but am i making any sense here? discuss.

[PuPu]

tidus is a relfection of the fayth thinking of shuyin from the real zanercan,

I used to think this, and I've had huge debates with others over this, but unfortunately, this isn't true.

The Fayth created Dream Zanarkand, with all of its original inhabitants and Shuyin, 1000 years ago. Tidus existed in the present.

[Tavrobel]

tidus, Auron and Jecht spoke to yuna while she was fighting vegnagun

Braska, not Tidus.

DZ is just as real as any other location in Spira. In the same way that Aeons are able to materialize based on whatever it is that they are made from (Pyreflies), so too can the inhabitants of DZ materialize. To put it simply, DZ is a physical location in Spira, and its inhabitants are based on the memories of the people who would have lived in the real Zanarkand had they not been involved in the War. If Zanarkand had been allowed to flourish and not been attacked by Bevelle, then the current DZ could represent one of the futures that could have resulted for the city. Tidus is supposed based on the actual memory of Shuyin, but after 1000 years, there's either decay or great boredom. However, just because he is based on someone else does not make him insignificant. He is fully, and really a person of his own. He's just got a different way of dying than the rest of us.

[PuPu]

When the Fayth created Dream Zanarkand, their dreams summoned the memories of the city and its people right then and there. There would have been a dream Shuyin at that time too, and he would have dream-died of old age like a regular person would have.

There's no reason why the Fayth would decide to recreate someone based on their memories of Shuyin when they already did so 1000 years ago. Maybe Tidus could be Shuyin's great, great, great, (etc.), grandson, but not a representation of Shuyin himself.

[Mercen-X]

I'm not sure that anything been said has made any sense so far. I know matter-of-factly that it hasn't made sense to me.

I've heard that Tidus was created while attempting to create the memory of Shuyin. Memories are immaterial and are never reliably represented. Since Dream Zanarkand is a composite of the memories of its 1000+ occupants, naturally the outcome may seem a bit muddled.
In the end, it really doesn't matter who was originally intended to be remembered. What became was a Blitzball player and then a corrupted warrior both having the same head. Who knows and who cares what Tidus or Shuyin really looked like 1000 years ago, or if either of them really existed as individuals. It's just as possible that both of them were composites of memories cobbled together about different people in different situations.

My primary point is that the creation of characters in FF10 through memories is a convoluted process and you shouldn't wasted your time dwelling on it. Chances are more likely that if Squee were to release a prequel (let's say it's about Shuyin and Lenne) that the characters we are already familiar with and Zanarkand itself would likely look completely different.

To summarize in direct relation to Tidus: His memories of Zanarkand are inconsequential to the path his life follows at the point when he meets Yuna. The memories merely serve as a link to Sin and Jecht. Tidus himself as we see him in Besaid may not be a true representation of the Blitzball player from Zanarkand. He may not have even existed by himself. Tidus may be a composite of the entire team. However, as it's been said, he becomes a real individual the second he appears in Spira's waters and that is all that matters.

[PuPu]

DZ, and the memory of all the people who lived there (at the time) was created by the Fayth 1000 years ago. Since Shuyin lived in Zanarkand at the time as well, the Fayth would have no doubt created a dream version of Shuyin as well, 1000 years ago at that time. But the problem is, we see Tidus in present day Spira. It's impossible for Tidus to be the memory of Shuyin that was created 1000 years ago that still lives in the present, because Tidus is 17 years old, not 1017 years old. The idea of a time freeze is also out of the question, since we see flashbacks of Tidus when he was a kid talking with Jecht, and thus time flows normally in DZ.

There's also the fact that the Fayth do indeed clearly remember who Shuyin is. Bahamut's Fayth talks about him in FFX-2. But probably the biggest problem with the "Tidus = Memory of Shuyin" theory is that the fact that their names are different. If the Fayth was trying to create the memory of Shuyin, but knew his name was Shuyin, why is Tidus not named Shuyin?

How the Fayth create memories doesn't matter at all. The simple fact is, we know that DZ and the people that live in DZ (i.e. Shuyin) were created 1000 years before FFX started, and we know that the Fayth do remember Shuyin's name. Tidus was born 17 years before FFX started, and is not named Shuyin even though the Fayth remember Shuyin's name, so he isn't Shuyin.

[Mo-Nercy]

I probably should've spent more time paying attention to the story of X-2 instead of trying to look up everyone's skirts. This thread has been good for me because I never really understood the Tidus-Shuyin relationship either.

From what I've gathered from above posters (and correct me if I am wrong):

• Zanarkand loses war against Bevelle.
• Remaining summoners of Zanarkand 'summon' a Dream Zanarkand with memories of all it's inhabitants within.
• 1000 years passes and DZ continues to exist within Spira, being summoned round the clock by the Fayth on Mt. Gagazet.
• In the millenium that passes, DZ experiences the passage of time as well, evidenced by the existance of Tidus' memories as a child, which are unique to him as Shuyin never had (as far as we can tell) a drunkard, Blitzball-playing father.
• Tidus leaves DZ and winds up in Besaid to begin his journey.
• FFX
• FFX-2

So if Tidus isn't Shuyin (or a memory of him dreamed by the Fayth), that would suggest that the Fayth have really poor imaginations. 1000 years later and there just happens to be a guy that looks, sounds and dresses exactly like another guy?

[Karifean]

Remaining summoners of Zanarkand 'summon' a Dream Zanarkand with memories of all it's inhabitants within.

Not quite true. All remaining inhabitants gathered on Mt. Gagazet (while singing Hymn of the Fayth) and became fayths. The summoner of all these fayths is for those who played FFXYu-Yevon. It works quite the same way as with aeons. Basically, DZ is an aeon.

[Moon Rabbits]

This thread is exactly why I never understood the FFX universe.

[Mercen-X]

How the Fayth create memories doesn't matter at all. The simple fact is, we know that DZ and the people that live in DZ (i.e. Shuyin) were created 1000 years before FFX started, and we know that the Fayth do remember Shuyin's name. Tidus was born 17 years before FFX started, and is not named Shuyin even though the Fayth remember Shuyin's name, so he isn't Shuyin.

How come Tidus aged and Shuyin didn't?

[Karifean]

Shuyin did. The Shuyin in FFX-2 is, as the fayth of Bahamut stated, "just a shadow. The real Shuyin died long ago."

Oh and @PuPu, how do we know that Tidus isn't named Shuyin? We get to name him - but he must have a real name, which is never said. How are we to say that the fayth do not remember Tidus' name - they never did anything to indicate they forgot his name (except for not telling it, which is, however, caused by our ability to name him).

[Mercen-X]

So then Shuyin being a shadow of the real Shuyin is the reason he has Tidus's face?

[PuPu]

Oh and @PuPu, how do we know that Tidus isn't named Shuyin? We get to name him - but he must have a real name, which is never said.

...you're joking right?

Instruction booklet of game says so, FFX and FFX-2 Ultimania both say his name is Tidus. SE essentially says his name is Tidus, and the only reason why his name was never said in the game was for voice acting reasons.

How are we to say that the fayth do not remember Tidus' name - they never did anything to indicate they forgot his name (except for not telling it, which is, however, caused by our ability to name him).

Because what you say isn't a fact. Until what you say can be supported with evidence, it remains wrong until proven right. That's how theories work.

[BG-57]

To put it simply, Tidus is a physical copy of Shuyin, but not emotional or mental. Whether this was by accident or design is not explained, but it seems like a heck of a coincidence.

[Mercen-X]

How the Fayth create memories doesn't matter at all. The simple fact is, we know that DZ and the people that live in DZ (i.e. Shuyin) were created 1000 years before FFX started, and we know that the Fayth do remember Shuyin's name. Tidus was born 17 years before FFX started, and is not named Shuyin even though the Fayth remember Shuyin's name, so he isn't Shuyin.

How come Tidus aged and Shuyin didn't?

Shuyin did. The Shuyin in FFX-2 is, as the fayth of Bahamut stated, "just a shadow. The real Shuyin died long ago."

I'm still confused about Shuyin's existence. If Shuyin exists due to being dreamed by the Fayth and Tidus exists due to being dreamed by the Fayth and Jecht exists due to being dreamed by the Fayth... stop trying to break my brain.

And don't say "he's not a dream, he's a shadow." What the HELL does that mean?