Overratedroth.

[PuPu]

oh my god words

Like we all know numbers, stats and all this does not matter for the true story strength and I really doubt anyone thinks "When a Super Nova hits me I just get % damage, am paralyzed, slowed and confused!"

Thank god that I'm not the only one who thinks this.

Cloud can use an original Omnislash. He shows it during Advent Children Complete. Sephiroth just blocks it, but Cloud can use it. Vincent can transform into beasts, the characters [b]can{/b] summon Summonings/Eidolons/Aeons/Guardian Forces/et cetera.

And the difference is that these characters have far more proof that they can perform their abilities, but Seph doesn't.

This is a magical fantasy world. Neo X-Death's Almagest is a demonstration of his power as well and he does not only use it during the final battle. He summons the Almagest spheres during the story line as well. Of course magic is unbelievable in our world. But it should not be hard to believe, inhuman creatures like these have enough power destroy planets, solar system, galaxies, et cetera.

I'm not saying that the ability to destroy the solar system is an unbelievable in FF. I'm saying that Sephiroth having this ability is what's unbelievable.

Sephiroth was strong enough during the whole story to kill the heroes - and we all know that, even the heroes themselves say before the Final Battle they cannot compare to them and during the whole story they were even weaker.

But the characters got stronger. As in all RPGs, the characters develop and grow stronger from the beginning of the game, and by the time they reach the final battle, they all do become strong enough to beat Seph. The fact that they also had Materia to boost their abilities also helped.

So in case you ask yourself why he hasn't used a Super Nova or something similiar instead of Meteor

Because he couldn't.

you just can ask yourself as well why he hasn't killed Cloud while he was sleeping during the time he was sleeping in the ShinRa Headquarters.

Because he needed Cloud to hand him the Black Materia.

By the way - a Super Nova is a Super Nova. There is no weaker version of it. And a Super Nova doesn't look like the american one of Sephiroth. His japanese original Super Nova is more of a real Super Nova.

The fact that Square decided to change it clearly says something about how it was intended to look like. Not that this matters, since he can't do either.

I think the fact all the other moves of characters and enemies are real and the mentioned facts

...because these things don't contradict anything said in the plot, and sometimes even have things in the plot which supports the fact that they are real, such as Bahamut.

which makes a Super Nova impossible in Crisis Core tells you why is has to be his real power during Final Fantasy VII(-1) even without statement.

...he became stronger than he was in CC. That's not exactly something which suggests that he suddenly gained the power to destroy a solar system.

This quote option is irritating. I have to edit it too many times.

There is a quote button on the toolbar above. To add a person's name, put =(name) after QUOTE. So it would look like QUOTE=(name). Make sure to take off the parentheses. Example is:

text

Let's end it here. I don't want the same thing as last time here. Just keep your opinion like you want it to be.

Then don't automatically consider everything that you say is fact and automatically dismiss everything that I say.

[RedPouch]

Every idiot is able to destroy the Solar System.

Out of all the anime I've seen, I rarely see villains that can do all of that. There are certainly many powerful ones that have highly destructive powers, but the entire solar system? That's a bit much. And correct me if I'm wrong... but both the examples you gave [Cell and Brolly?] are from DBZ, aren't they? If so, that's a horrible example because it's notoriously the dumbest creation in all anime that most of us have ever seen. It's just Akira Toriyama's horribly-drawn crap made for kids [like 11-15 etc] that give great ammo for people that want to call it "Japanese cartoons". That would be like me saying "American heroes in TV shows are ALWAYS horribly-written and stupid. Look at Power Rangers".

Anyways, I'm not attacking you or anything. I'll be more willing to accept this notion, but I'd prefer examples from more prestigious and mature anime. I won't accept two examples from DBZ.

Safer is a mistranslation of Sepher. See the translation project at my forum.

Safer-Sephiroth - The Final Fantasy Wiki

KMC Forums - Sephiroth vs. Sesshomaru

How Safer Sephiroth got his name - Final Fantasy VII - Neoseeker Forums

Safer Sephiroth - Final Fantasy Forums

[Sephiroth]

Thank god that I'm not the only one who thinks this.

Because it is the truth.

And the difference is that these characters have far more proof that they can perform their abilities, but Seph doesn't.

...he became stronger than he was in CC. That's not exactly something which suggests that he suddenly gained the power to destroy a solar system.

I think you don't understand what I wanted to tell you. Of course he became stronger than in Crisis Core. That's fact and everyone knows that. But even though there is a Fan Club question about him he cannot use that move during that time for real - otherwise you would say Super Nova would look different in Crisis Core compared to Super Nova in Final Fantasy VII but this argument would make no sense because he doesn't use Super Nova during that time and so it is pretty logical he simply cannot use this move because he is not strong enough during that time.

But the characters got stronger. As in all RPGs, the characters develop and grow stronger from the beginning of the game, and by the time they reach the final battle, they all do become strong enough to beat Seph. The fact that they also had Materia to boost their abilities also helped.

Yes, they got stronger but even directly before the Final Battle they have said they are weaker. And it was shown by the same way Square has shown it with Kefka. Kefka has pushed the characters around with his power and Sephiroth has forced them back with his power. Of course it was teamwork, they were the strongest heroes, et cetera but the characters were still weaker. You do not have to be stronger than someone to beat him. That's the same in every other topic. Just because I beat...a World Champion in a trading card game it doesn't mean I am better than him in this game. I could have been luck. Or bad luck for him. There are so many factors. And as Square says Sephiroth is the strongest and he wasn't even at his limits in Advent Children (I know we are talking about Final Fantasy VII-1) while Cloud was (and we can agree Cloud - and Vincent - are the strongest characters of the hero team, compared to them the other's power hardly counts). So that shows no matter how strong the characters are they are not stronger than him. Because it is not necessary. Sephiroth has his arrogance weakness.

Because he couldn't.

This is just your opinion and can't be really proven. Like my explanation about why Super Nova is a power demonstration cannot be 100 % proven without Square as well.

Because he needed Cloud to hand him the Black Materia.

I have to disappoint you but he didn't.

Cloud himself mentions Sephiroth could sacrifice one of his other clones to get the Black Materia. He has said in in the Temple of the Cetra. So he could sacrifice another clone as well who would bring him the Black Materia - because of Final Fantasy VII's definition of "clone" Cloud is a clone of course because he got J-S-cells injected but I think you've understood what I have meant. Cloud was not necessary. There were enough clones. And they have followed the desire to reunite (activated by Sephiroth with JENOVA's head) as well so they would have wandered to the Northern Crater as well (and they did like we all now). Sephiroth could have one clone to activate the trap inside the temple and another one could have brought him the Black Materia. Cloud was not necessary and so it is a filler.

The fact that Square decided to change it clearly says something about how it was intended to look like. Not that this matters, since he can't do either.

It doesn't explain why Super Nova should be the only move in Final Fantasy who doesn't show what a character can do. Let us think for just 1 minute you are right (and we will never know), it is fact Sephiroth can use a move called "Super Nova" - why should it look like a Super Nova if he cannot unleash a real Super Nova? This makes no sense. He doesn't have to impress other people. People already fear his power.

Well - now really that's it. This is just a "he can" and "he can't". We don't get far so let's spend our time useful.

And Khalin just because you don't like Dragon Ball the examples are not invalid. They have the power and that's it. I know another fantasy- and anime-like character who is imcomparably strong and is probably the best example. He is not of an anime itself. But he is anime-like as well. One of the well-known forum members here is called like him.

[seiferalmasy2]

Safer means nothing though, Sepher is kabbalah just as Sephiroth is. Saferoth wouldn't have worked as his name :P

SEPHER YETZIRAH

[Sephiroth]

Then don't automatically consider everything that you say is fact and automatically dismiss everything that I say.

I think I have proven I can tell you "You are right." as well. Often enough.

And you often just say "No." and don't even prove why you "are right". So you just dismiss user's posts as well. Sorry. I hope you will think about my words and yourself because maybe you just do not notice.

[seiferalmasy2]

It is not Seraph, that Wiki is wrong. We should know given we have spent 6 months researching and comparing, and I am in consultation with 10 japanese speakers. look carefully:

Seraph Comb > セラフコーム > Serafu Kōmu > Seraph Comb [anyone still complaining that Sepher Sephiroth is wrong, please note the differences]

セラフ Seraph
セーファ Sepher

]Safer・Sephiroth
セーファ・セフィロス
Seefa Sefirosu
Sepher Sephiroth
[This one always gets attention. Firstly, Sepher Sephiroth is inspired by the Seraph Seraph - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
But Sēfa does not make Seraph. This is a misconception. The word translates to either Sefer or Sepher (both are ok) and is Hebrew/Kabbalistic (as is Sephiroth)
Sephirot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sefer Yetzirah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sefer Torah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I am told by Gemini that Sepher is closer than Sefer and since Sephiroth is spelled by "Seph" it seems much more logical. Therefore, Sepher Sephiroth is the name. ]

[PuPu]

You do not have to be stronger than someone to beat him.

Strength/Power exists in many different forms.

So that shows no matter how strong the characters are they are not stronger than him.

Individually, no. Except for maybe Cloud.

Because it is not necessary. Sephiroth has his arrogance weakness.

Cloud's determination and will IS a form of his strength and it's what allowed him to win in Advent Children.

This is just your opinion and can't be really proven. Like my explanation about why Super Nova is a power demonstration cannot be 100 % proven without Square as well.

*facemoltenlava*

oh my god not this again

Alright, let me explain how it works. You brought up the assertion that Sephiroth can use Super Nova and you need to provide proof first as to why your statement is true. You have to do more than say "well it's a possibility with nothing to prove against it." If you can't provide concrete evidence that he can in fact use Super Nova, then I don't need to provide proof as to why the assertion is wrong because it automatically fails on its own.

Here's an example that I like using to explain why this commonly used debate tactic doesn't work:

Child A says that unicorns are real.
Child B says "you can't prove that unicorns are real"
Child A says "that's just your opinion and you can't prove me wrong"

In this case, we all know that Child A's assertion that [unicorns are real] is false due to the fact that he couldn't provide his own proof. Child B didn't need to provide his own proof against Child A if he couldn't provide his own proof in the first place.

It doesn't explain why Super Nova should be the only move in Final Fantasy who doesn't show what a character can do.

I'm saying that he couldn't use Super Nova because you haven't provided evidence that he could except for one question that wasn't related to the plot.

it is fact Sephiroth can use a move called "Super Nova" - why should it look like a Super Nova if he cannot unleash a real Super Nova? This makes no sense. He doesn't have to impress other people. People already fear his power.

...it's just a name that Square Enix made to sound cool, dude. It doesn't have to do with anything that the actual attack does.

[RedPouch]

And Khalin just because you don't like Dragon Ball the examples are not invalid.

I'll refer you to my analogy again:

That would be like me saying "American heroes in TV shows are ALWAYS horribly-written and stupid. Look at Power Rangers".

How does one single show speak for all "American heroes in TV shows"? It doesn't. Your claim was "Every idiot is able to destroy the Solar System". What I'm saying is that a few villains from the same, lame kid's anime, certainly does not prove "Every idiot is able to destroy the Solar System". I'll need examples from just more than one single show, preferably from more credible and prestigious, mature animes as I said. If you could name like 30+ examples all from different anime, I might be more willing to accept this notion [and yes, I'm aware that by you're saying "every idiot", you're just making an exaggeration and you actually mean "most", but still, two guys from one kid's anime doesn't qualify as "most", or even "several"]. There are tons of anime out there, so I think 30+ examples would be a reasonable requirement to accept the notion of "most", but not "every".

Safer means nothing though

Yes, I already stated that. Why do you think I pointed out that it was a mistranslation?

Safer means nothing though, Sepher is kabbalah just as Sephiroth is. Saferoth wouldn't have worked as his name :P

Who said anything about "Saferoth"? Did you read the links I gave you? Did you even read my post?

Every credible Final Fantasy source and forum that I can get my hands on through google indicates that "Safer" is a mistranslation of "Seraph", which would be consistent with how many wings he has in that form [Seraph was the highest choir of angel and had six wings, also in Kefka's case]. Just type "Seraph Sephiroth" into the google search engine and read the results you get. No clue where this "Saferoth" is coming from.

[Sephiroth]

It is not Seraph, that Wiki is wrong. We should know given we have spent 6 months researching and comparing, and I am in consultation with 10 japanese speakers. look carefully:

Seraph Comb > セラフコーム > Serafu Kōmu > Seraph Comb [anyone still complaining that Sepher Sephiroth is wrong, please note the differences]

セラフ Seraph

]Safer・Sephiroth
セーファ・セフィロス
Seefa Sefirosu
Sepher Sephiroth
[This one always gets attention. Firstly, Sepher Sephiroth is inspired by the Seraph Seraph - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
But Sēfa does not make Seraph. This is a misconception. The word translates to either Sefer or Sepher (both are ok) and is Hebrew/Kabbalistic (as is Sephiroth)
Sephirot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sefer Yetzirah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sefer Torah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I am told by Gemini that Sepher is closer than Sefer and since Sephiroth is spelled by "Seph" it seems much more logical. Therefore, Sepher Sephiroth is the name. ]

I can confirm that. I have the japanese version and "Sepher" ist correct.

Trashypedia is the last website I would trust. I website were every single idiot can edit something? even correct things? No, thanks!

Khalin, I hope you don't really think I would post 30 names here and now just because you want it.

And PuPu the same mistakes you make all the time is:

Step 1 - A says something
Step 2 - B (you) says "no, it is the opposite, prove you are right!"
Step 3 - A doesn't prove it because maybe there are not enough official facts and says "you want to tell me you are right now prove what you have said" - in my case I simply cannot decide what's true because I am no member of Square-Enix and can only use what they "give" me
Step 4 - B (you) says "ha! you are wrong because you cannot prove it (which is wrong as well because I cannot decide what's right about Final Fantasy and just because I cannot prove something it is not automatically wrong, Square could still have decided it is the truth but they just didn't want to tell us (example)
Step 5 - B (you) says "i do not have to prove what I have said! you cannot prove your argument you are wrong and I am right!" but you forget you have no more right than I to decide what's wrong in Final Fantasy and who knows? just because person A doesn't prove it you argument is not automatically right and as long as you have not proven your argument right it is as worthy as the unproven argument - because it is unproven as well.

So it is simply 1:1 and not 0:1.

Also it is not a natural law the first one who says something has to prove something so the second one can then try to prove his argument. It can be vice-versa.

EDIT: I have forgotten to mention it is impossible for Square to show he can really use a Super Nova in the story. And I think you know why. It is obvious. But actually I have already mentioned. And it doesn't mean just because they didn't show, he is not able to do this. It would be just hard to tell how the story continues when he uses a Super Nova.
Also like I have told you Sephiroth is the character with the strongest will which is officially stated by Square and Cloud's will is very "weak" which is officially stated by Square as well. So this is definitely not his advantage he can use to defeat Sephiroth.

[RedPouch]

Khalin, I hope you don't really think I would post 30 names here and now just because you want it.

So you have none to produce then? I'm just assuming you don't have any other examples besides DBZ. Even at least 10 different animes would come closer to qualifying as "Every idiot can".

Child A says that unicorns are real.
Child B says "you can't prove that unicorns are real"
Child A says "that's just your opinion and you can't prove me wrong"

In this case, we all know that Child A's assertion that [unicorns are real] is false due to the fact that he couldn't provide his own proof. Child B didn't need to provide his own proof against Child A if he couldn't provide his own proof in the first place.

Yeah. The burden of proof falls on the one who asserts the positive.

I'll be more inclined to concede the Sepher point though, however based on your post I have this feeling that you didn't even read what I said correctly which is the only thing that really irks me right now. I'll still stand by my notion at least being a reasonable one, since however wrong, it's consistent with the fact that his final form is a six-winged angel [which is a Seraph by mythology] and that it seems widely agreed upon. Also, stating that "trashypedia" is untrustworthy just because of one or few examples of error is a logical fallacy.

[PuPu]

Yeah. The burden of proof falls on the one who asserts the positive.

Thank god I'm not the only one that thinks this as well

Also, going to point out that Wikipedia is pretty good most of the time, because it cites its information and any vandalism is easily fixed.

It's wikias that you have to watch out for, which are typically unmoderated and unsourced trash. For example, KHwikia is usually full of misinformation about the plot.

[Sephiroth]

So you have none to produce then?

>_> Of course I can. I just don't want another debate about 30 characters in this Sephiroth thread. It is 12:30 AM where I live and I am tired.

Yeah. The burden of proof falls on the one who asserts the positive.

Thank god I'm not the only one that thinks this as well

Also, going to point out that Wikipedia is pretty good most of the time, because it cites its information and any vandalism is easily fixed.

It's wikias that you have to watch out for, which are typically unmoderated and unsourced trash. For example, KHwikia is usually full of misinformation about the plot.

I have posted some useful informations I think it was 2 years ago - and everyone was able to prove them right - but they have been removed. What a good website.

[PuPu]

Step 3 - A doesn't prove it because maybe there are not enough official facts

This means the same thing as "not enough evidence" to support A's stance.

in my case I simply cannot decide what's true because I am no member of Square-Enix and can only use what they "give" me

That is analogous to saying that we can't decide that unicorns don't exist because we aren't God.

which is wrong as well because I cannot decide what's right about Final Fantasy and just because I cannot prove something it is not automatically wrong

Um, yes it is. Just like how somebody can't prove that unicorns are real, they are also automatically wrong because they can't provide proof that they are right.

Square could still have decided it is the truth but they just didn't want to tell us

Which is analogous to "God could have made unicorns but just decided not show them to us humans."

but you forget you have no more right than I to decide what's wrong in Final Fantasy

Um, yes I do. I could make the assertion that Cloud has the ability to turn into a purple elephant and use the saying "well this is a possibility that Square Enix could have just decided not to tell us about this fact" but it wouldn't make me right.

just because person A doesn't prove it you argument is not automatically right and as long as you have not proven your argument right it is as worthy as the unproven argument - because it is unproven as well.

But I don't have to prove anything, until you do so first.

The same is the case with the unicorns. You can't prove that they real and you can't prove that they aren't real, but they aren't real because there is no proof. Until is proof for the positive, the negative doesn't need any proof.

Also it is not a natural law the first one who says something has to prove something so the second one can then try to prove his argument.

No, it pretty much is the way that I said it. If we're going by your rules, then I'm making the claim that I'm Tetsuya Nomura and that I'm right because you can't prove that I'm not Tetsuya Nomura. Also, unicorns are real because you don't have evidence to prove that they are not real.

I have forgotten to mention it is impossible for Square to show he can really use a Super Nova in the story. And I think you know why. It is obvious. But actually I have already mentioned.

There still isn't evidence that he can use it, though.

And it doesn't mean just because they didn't show, he is not able to do this.

No, it pretty much does. Cloud isn't shown to be able to turn into a purple elephant, so we know that he can't.

[black orb]

>>> Overratedroth rules!!..
BTW, Kimahri had an even crazier supernova and no one seems to complain..

[Sephiroth]

That is analogous to saying that we can't decide that unicorns don't exist because we aren't God.

Which is right because we are not god and just because we say, they do not begin to exist. We are humans and we cannot change reality. Reality is independent of human beings and. We just can say "Yes, it is." or "No, it isn't." but just because we say that it doesn't change the fact itself. As long as it is not the truth, it is nothing but an illusion. And the comment "When someone or something isn't shown it does not exist." is wrong as well. Just because you have never seen me speaking german I am existing as a german speaking guy. And you haven't met most of people in the world. But they exist. If you really think they way you think is right people do not die as long as no one sees it. You don't have the power to show me unicorns do not exist because you are not all-powerful and you don't know everything. Truth is truth and false is false and it will never change just because someone who isn't all-powerful can('t) prove what he says. And it's the same with your words. And your words interfere because it is not the way I think, it is the way you think. You say I cannot prove comment A of mine so you do not have to prove your comment B and comment B is automatically right. And it is not. Of course I cannot prove you are not Tetsuya Nomura as long as you don't stand in front of me. But it is you with your "logic" and not me. I say I cannot prove it, because it is possible you are Tetsuya Nomura. That doesn't depend on me. But you say I cannot prove the opposite so you automatically are Tetsuya Nomura. To explain it more understanable: You think when I say "You are not Tetsuya Nomura." and you say "I am Tetsuya Nomura." and I cannot prove I am right you automatically are Tetsuya Nomura because you were the second one in this discussion and the second one automatically wins in case the first one cannot prove his argument and this is wrong. And do not say it is the way I think because almost all sentences of yours say that it is the way you think. You have even said as long as I cannot prove my words right your words are right which is the proof you think this way.

Um, yes it is. Just like how somebody can't prove that unicorns are real, they are also automatically wrong because they can't provide proof that they are right.
_______________

Um, yes I do. I could make the assertion that Cloud has the ability to turn into a purple elephant and use the saying "well this is a possibility that Square Enix could have just decided not to tell us about this fact" but it wouldn't make me right.

______________

The same is the case with the unicorns. You can't prove that they real and you can't prove that they aren't real, but they aren't real because there is no proof. Until is proof for the positive, the negative doesn't need any proof.

Okay, definitely not.
Your words as a human being and your thoughts as a human being are not more "powerful" than mine. The truth is not dependent by you. It exists without you. Just because I say "You will die." and you say "No, I don't." and I cannot prove you will die you won't die. When Person A has killed Person B and you say "No, it was Person C." and I have no proof Person A was the killer - but it is the truth, because he has killed Person B - you are not right that Person C has killed Person B. You will never change the fact it was Person A. Human law is not the same as law of reality. Of course you will just quote this and say the opposite but is doesn't matter because your words don't mean anything as long as they interfere reality and the existing truth.

And if you really think your words are strong enough to change reality and the truth with it just because someone else canniot prove the opposite, then this discussion is over. Because then you really don't get any respect from me. You are not the Big Boss himself.

And now I am really angry so I will end this. I do not waste my time for people who think unproven arguments are as strong as Gods will itself. And be sure I will never answer to you because this is the greatest and dumbest thing you could have written. You are not God and your words don't have more power than mine. And you can never prove the opposite because after all you are nothing but a human being. Your words are just wrong because the are wrong (and when you are right you are right but your wrong words will never be right at the moment they are wrong and vice-versa) and you are not God but a human being with limits. And everyone here knows that. And if your next post begins with "You cannot prove I am not God so I am God." then do not wonder no one wants to talk to you or answer to your very strong posts with anime guys who are laughing at people or your skilled and provoking "> ...." posts which "indeed" is very mighty.

You really know nothing about Final Fantasy and Kingdom Hearts and you really know nothing about the difference of truth and opinion. And you should go back to school for learning how an argument is built.

I feel sorry for you.

So, farewell. Have a nice day and life.