In this thread, a person more powerful than every FF character

[Slick]

ahuh, k.


I'll prove to you why our 'guns' are better as soon as you prove why your theory is right, which will be never. Sorry.


/thread.

[PuPu]

I'll prove to you why our 'guns' are better as soon as you prove why your theory is right, which will be never. Sorry.

>he uses his point of guns as something to prove me wrong
>admits that he can't prove his point
>thus the point fails to prove me wrong
>I still have proof which proves me right
>he no longer has proof which proves me wrong

Now, is the appropriate time for:

/thread.

[Depression Moon]

it actually ended here

It's not a fact because we don't have empirical evidence comparing the universes.

bye have a nice time arguing with yourself

[PuPu]

it actually ended here

It's not a fact because we don't have empirical evidence comparing the universes.

bye have a nice time arguing with yourself

>can't read words

I'm talking about things inside the universes

[Shlup]

Does this thread even have a topic anymore? I can't tell.

I don't mind leaving it open as long as the level of argument doesn't escalate any further. Watch the personal attacks; if they go any further at all you'll all get warning, and some of you can't really afford them.

[Mercen-X]

Everything that has been argued since my last post has been ridiculous. Why do I have to suddenly defend PuPu when I'm obviously against his logic?

From what I've read (it took me a few minutes to cool off and re-read and a few days to find a computer with internet again), PuPu has NOT suggested a crossing of universes. Actually, I think I was the first one to actually suggest that. PuPu is speaking in terms of Relativity.

Sora's strength in KH in relation to the average FF hero's strength is PWNing. The only character that seems to have reached Universal power in FF seems to be Kefka (althought I think Ultimecia also qualifies to say the least).

However, PuPu that does not dismiss you from your flawed logic.

When I've argued that Sora would not much more than a kid in FF, you claimed that he is an expert swordsman. He's not. Sora's strengths all rely heavily on the Keyblade which grants him not only significant power but knowledge as well. He could not perform his best attacks or even fine attacks while using weapons like the stick, the Struggle club, or the Dream Weapons much less his invincible attacks or Drives.

You've argued that Sora is more powerful because in the Final Battle, it was he and Riku who defeated Xemnas alone and it takes FF characters parties of 8 to 14 to win their Final Battle. This cannot be proven. It can also be easily disproven by a skilled player. For although you could claim a player's skills as being a gameplay element with no role in plot, the fact that a small party can defeat their final boss is still relevant.

I will concede that Sora and Riku are a stronger pair because they defeated an enemy possessing universal strength. But do not bring numbers into the argument.

One last thing.

The strongest person in my local gym is most likely not going to be stronger than the strongest person in an entire country.

The strongest person at your gym and in the country are still part of the same reality. Thus this argument is meaningless.

>country is a larger scale than gym
>"strongest" of former more significant than latter

More significant means more important, but it doesn't mean the guy from the gym isn't the strongest in the country, there's no proof offered of that.

[PuPu]

When I've argued that Sora would not much more than a kid in FF, you claimed that he is an expert swordsman. He's not.

I'm reminded of a certain time when he sliced through seven buildings in the blink of an eye.

Sora's strengths all rely heavily on the Keyblade which grants him not only significant power but knowledge as well.

...no it doesn't. That's the same thing as saying that Cloud relies heavily on his sword to grant him power and that Squall relies heavily on his gunblade to grant him power.

He could not perform his best attacks or even fine attacks while using weapons like the stick, the Struggle club, or the Dream Weapons much less his invincible attacks or Drives.

1. He could still use Magic and abilities such as Sonic Blade with the wooden sword. He didn't lose these abilities when he lost Kingdom Key.

2. He could still use all of his Action and Support abilities that he learned on his journey when using the Struggle Bat, even Trinity Limit.

3. He wasn't as experienced as when he was using Dream Weapons. But he gained a lot of experience and fighting skills.

4. By the logic that you're using against me, Cloud and Squall is never shown to be able to defeat their enemies without the Buster Sword or Gunblade, so therefore I could make the exact same argument that their power comes from those weapons as well.

You've argued that Sora is more powerful because in the Final Battle, it was he and Riku who defeated Xemnas alone and it takes FF characters parties of 8 to 14 to win their Final Battle. This cannot be proven.

It can be proven because it's exactly what happened. The argument that Terra could have taken out God Kefka alone isn't any more valid than the argument that Sora could have taken out Final Xemnas alone.

It can also be easily disproven by a skilled player. For although you could claim a player's skills as being a gameplay element with no role in plot, the fact that a small party can defeat their final boss is still relevant.

But it doesn't change what the plot actually says happened. Sure, I could do a Solo Squall challenge against Ultimecia and win, and I could also hack KH2 into removing Riku from the Final Xemnas battle and win as well, but it doesn't change the fact that the story says all the FF characters worked together to defeat their final bosses and that Sora and Riku worked together to defeat Final Xemnas.

The strongest person at your gym and in the country are still part of the same reality. Thus this argument is meaningless.

Alright, the strongest person in my gym (located in the USA) vs. the strongest person in Russia. They are now completely different and completely unaffected by each other, which is practically the same thing as different realities.

More significant means more important, but it doesn't mean the guy from the gym isn't the strongest in the country, there's no proof offered of that.

There's no 100% certainty, but there is a 99.9999% certainty that the guy in my gym isn't going to be stronger than the strongest man in Russia.

[blackmage_nuke]

Sora's strengths all rely heavily on the Keyblade which grants him not only significant power but knowledge as well.

...no it doesn't. That's the same thing as saying that Cloud relies heavily on his sword to grant him power and that Squall relies heavily on his gunblade to grant him power.

However Cloud's sword is (for all we know) just a normal sword. If we were to give Cloud and Sora struggle bats, remove any magical clothing/accesories/materia. Sora would be significantly weakened.

The strongest person at your gym and in the country are still part of the same reality. Thus this argument is meaningless.

Alright, the strongest person in my gym (located in the USA) vs. the strongest person in Russia. They are now completely different and completely unaffected by each other, which is practically the same thing as different realities.

More significant means more important, but it doesn't mean the guy from the gym isn't the strongest in the country, there's no proof offered of that.

There's no 100% certainty, but there is a 99.9999% certainty that the guy in my gym isn't going to be stronger than the strongest man in Russia.

No but they are still operating by the same universe/rules. Different games opperate under different rules. What you are claiming is that the worlds greatest boxer is a better fighter than the worlds greatest taekwando master because the worlds greatest boxer defeat the taekwando master in a boxing match.

[Tavrobel]

However Cloud's sword is (for all we know) just a normal sword. If we were to give Cloud and Sora struggle bats, remove any magical clothing/accesories/materia. Sora would be significantly weakened.

Well, to be perfectly fair, Cloud's Buster Sword has two holes in it, and as we all know, having holes in your weapon improves aerodynamicity.

True story.

[PuPu]

However Cloud's sword is (for all we know) just a normal sword

And Sora's keyblade, for all we know, has the ability to release hearts. There's nothing which suggests that Keyblades give powers to their wielders either, and there's nothing which suggests that the Keyblade gave Sora the ability to leap hundreds of feet in the air.

If we were to give Cloud and Sora struggle bats, remove any magical clothing/accesories/materia. Sora would be significantly weakened.

Not anymore than Cloud would, since if you take away everything that supposedly makes them both superhuman...then they would both be significantly weakened.

No but they are still operating by the same universe/rules. Different games opperate under different rules.

Which hardly matters, since power works in practically the same way in all games. Or at least, in these games. They may have different forms of power, but they still have power, nonetheless.

What you are claiming is that the worlds greatest boxer is a better fighter than the worlds greatest taekwando master because the worlds greatest boxer defeat the taekwando master in a boxing match.

I...don't think I was claiming this, but even if I was, the statement in this quote is still true.

EDIT: Actually...I'm not seeing at all how this analogy came from:

Xemnas being the more powerful entity in a multiverse that is KH vs Sephiroth being the most powerful entity in the planet of FF7.

To fix your analogy, it's more like:

Xemnas is a better fighter than Sephiroth because Xemnas is Russia's best boxer while Sephiroth is only my local town's best taekwando master. Emphasis on Xemnas being the best fighter, and nothing specific such as the better boxer or taekwando master, though the former is probably true. I'm not saying that Xemnas has more control over Lifestream than Seph does and I'm not saying that Seph has more control over KH than Xemnas. At least, I think this is what your analogy is trying to imply. Sure, Lifestream and KH are different forms of power, but still power nonetheless.

[blackmage_nuke]

What I was trying to say was all FF characters are severely weakened in the KH universe. Comparing what monsters they can or cannot defeat is invalid until you can prove that Sora can defeat any monster in an FF universe with the same ease as the FF characters

[PuPu]

What I was trying to say was all FF characters are severely weakened in the KH universe.

I'm not trying to argue for the whole "crossing universes" thing but...

I'll admit that KH's version of many characters is a lot weaker than their FF versions. For example, Seifer. But let's say that it was actually the 18 year old FF8 Seifer that was actually put in KH. There really isn't anything to suggest why he would be weaker in the KHverse assuming it WAS the FF8 Seifer.

Comparing what monsters they can or cannot defeat is invalid

Well...I was mostly only comparing Sora vs Xemnas and the FF characters against their own final bosses with varying numbers of people. I don't see how comparing the characters with their respective games' enemies is invalid.

until you can prove that Sora can defeat any monster in an FF universe with the same ease as the FF characters

Again, not trying to do the "crossing universes" thing, but the fact that Sora can beat Xemnas, who is arguably more powerful than most FF monsters is certainly a good indication, I would say.

[Mercen-X]

Xemnas being the more powerful entity in a multiverse that is KH vs Sephiroth being the most powerful entity in the planet of FF7.

Sorry, I have to retract my earlier concession as I had assumed you'd attributed universal powers to Xemnas rather than what you've stated above.

Although Sephiroth may have been "only" the most powerful being on the Planet, he has no interest in anything other than Cloud in KH and doesn't even acknowledge Sora to have beaten him. If he'd had any interest in Kingdom Hearts, we have no proof that Xemnas would have been more powerful.
Even if Kingdom Hearts were a "multiverse" (which it isn't), it wouldn't mean the creatures therein are more powerful than any single Final Fantasy universe.
Kingdom Hearts isn't even a multiverse anyway. A multiverse would imply several coinciding universes that each play by their own rules. Kingdom Hearts simply draws several differing universes together and forces them all to abide by its rules. This changes the process of acquistion. Sora's abilities are not hard to learn, they come to him swiftly and efficiently and even conveniently as the plot demands. He doesn't gain the majority of his ability through "experience" as Final Fantasy characters would but instead they simply make themselves available when the story decides they're needed. Just because his level goes up and his stats increase slightly, doesn't mean he's gaining any new abilities.

[PuPu]

Sorry, I have to retract my earlier concession as I had assumed you'd attributed universal powers to Xemnas rather than what you've stated above.

I was under the impression that absorbing KH DID give him universal powers.

and doesn't even acknowledge Sora to have beaten him

That doesn't mean that he didn't get beat, though.

If he'd had any interest in Kingdom Hearts, we have no proof that Xemnas would have been more powerful.

No, Xemnas still would have as said by Nomura. Because the truth is, KH Sephiroth isn't one of the most powerful guys in the KHverse, regardless of how tough his boss fight is.

Even if Kingdom Hearts were a "multiverse" (which it isn't)

Yes, it is. It has multiple planes of existence, which are each assumed to be infinite. They are known as:

Realm of Light
Realm of Darkness
Realm of In-Between
Realm of Nothing

it wouldn't mean the creatures therein are more powerful than any single Final Fantasy universe.

Not something that I ever argued for.

A multiverse would imply several coinciding universes that each play by their own rules.

They do play by their own rules, actually. See, unlike the other realms, in the Realm of Nothing, you slowly fade away until you are completely wiped from existence unless you can remember your past like Ansem the Wise did.

Sora's abilities are not hard to learn

Throwing a dragon into the sky and slicing through seven buildings in the blink of an eye isn't hard?

they come to him swiftly and efficiently and even conveniently as the plot demands.

Which is proof of his amazing growth ability throughout the series.

I mean, in KH1 he starts from being an island kid playing with a toy sword to beating the strongest Heartless in existence in ~23 days.

Then when he lost all of his KH1 abilities in CoM due to Castle Oblivion, he was still able to experience a rapid enough growth to take down Organization XIII's (6th?) strongest member in ~25 days.

Then when he lost all of his Castle Oblivion powers during KH2, he was still able to go from nothing to gaining back his KH1 powers with Limit Form, and then to being strong enough to be able to beat the strongest person in the KHverse. Don't know how long this took, but I'm assuming it's not that much of a difference from the other two.

If you're thinking that I made up these numbers in days, I'm not.

The Reaction Commands in KH2 could tell you that Sora knows how to analyze his enemies' attacks and devise counter attacks. They exist for a lot of normal Heartless and Nobodies, and they exist for every single boss fight in the game. You might think that RCs are gameplay elements, but there are two things that say otherwise:

1. Many of these RCs have cutscenes, and cutscenes are essentially the game's way of showing you what exactly happens in the story. Especially in KH2, the game that has so many cutscenes that the cutscenes alone can pass off as their own game.

2. Many RCs are also unavoidable and are required to beat the story. This is just about every RC in the final battles.

He doesn't gain the majority of his ability through "experience" as Final Fantasy characters would but instead they simply make themselves available when the story decides they're needed.

Yes he does. After every single boss fight in KH2, he gains a new ability. RCs are essentially counter-attack strategies, and they don't just come to Sora because the story makes it convenient. They come to him, or anyone for that matter, as a result of being skilled and having good knowledge of fighting tactics.

Just because his level goes up and his stats increase slightly, doesn't mean he's gaining any new abilities.

I never brought stats into this. But certain things do in fact say that he's gaining new abilities, such as Donald/Goofy handing him Dodge Roll, Cloud handing him Sonic Blade, and the fact that every single boss battle victory in KH2 has him learn a specific new ability. These ability gains are unavoidable elements as you progress through the story, so they pretty much are canon.

[Mercen-X]

Suffice to say that Xemnas is not all-powerful. He does not possess universal power (not even worth mentioning the fact he didn't absorb a complete KH), although he is the most powerful being at that point in Sora's time within the KHverse which the FF characters present therein could not beat (apparently, even while banded together). Within this KHverse, actually "defeating" darkness requires one to be wielding a Keyblade, a weapon which only four characters possess (if you include Kairi), this not representing the perpetual strength of the original KH characters (or lack thereof in FF characters represented therein) but instead denoting the power within their hearts which marked them to be chosen by the power of the Keyblade.