In this thread, a person more powerful than every FF character

[PuPu]

Suffice to say that Xemnas is not all-powerful. He does not possess universal power

KH is God. Xemnas absorbs God. Xemnas becomes God. If you're going to make claims like this, you might want to try to find things to back up your claims.

(not even worth mentioning the fact he didn't absorb a complete KH),

Which isn't that different from Kefka supposedly absorbing "All Magic" except for the few Espers that the party controlled. The thing is, there's still the scale difference.

Within this KHverse, actually "defeating" darkness requires one to be wielding a Keyblade

...no it doesn't. Defeating Heartless requires Keyblades, but it doesn't mean that other dark beings such as Jafar and Ursula can't be defeated as well. I don't even know what you mean by "defeating darkness" anyways, since it's not like you're "defeating water" by defeating Demyx.

a weapon which only four characters possess (if you include Kairi),

TAV
SRK
Mickey
Master Xehanort
Master Eraqus
Vanitas
Xion
Roxas

That's a lot more than four, dude.

this not representing the perpetual strength of the original KH characters (or lack thereof in FF characters represented therein) but instead denoting the power within their hearts which marked them to be chosen by the power of the Keyblade.

Power and strength come in many different forms, dude.

I'm not implying that Sora having the ability to defeat Heartless while the FF characters couldn't means that he's more powerful than them. Because he still beat other powerful enemies in the game which didn't require the Keyblade to beat. (Maleficent & friends, Organization XIII, etc.)

At this point, the only thing that you're saying is "Well KH power is invalid because it's different from the form of power in FF" yet you still can't prove why you think it's invalid.

And even if what you said IS true, it doesn't matter at all. Sora is still has more power than any FF character, since he beat an enemy more powerful than any enemies that the FF characters have faced in their respective universes. You can argue that Xemnas didn't truly have universal power all you want, because even if it were true, he still has more power than any FF villain + FF power source due to scale. It honestly doesn't matter where Sora's power came from, the fact is: it's still his own power.

Also, you act like "power of the heart" is the only power that exists in the KHverse.

[Mercen-X]

KH is God. Xemnas absorbs God. Xemnas becomes God. If you're going to make claims like this, you might want to try to find things to back up your claims.

You're the only one making this claim.

...no it doesn't. Defeating Heartless requires Keyblades, but it doesn't mean that other dark beings such as Jafar and Ursula can't be defeated as well. I don't even know what you mean by "defeating darkness" anyways, since it's not like you're "defeating water" by defeating Demyx.

Demyx wields water, but every Heartless and Nobody and, yes, the Disney Villains became the Disney equivolent of HEARTLESS, were COMPOSED of the darkness which Sora defeated via use of the Keyblade.

TAV, SRK, Mickey, Master Xehanort, Master Eraqus, Vanitas, Xion, Roxas

That's a lot more than four, dude.

Totally out of continuity, dude.
TAV, the orig Xehanort, Era, and Van don't even exist anymore by the time Sora begins his quest. Van and Xion aren't actually real but an emanation and reflection of Ventus and Sora respectively (the latter doesn't exist before or during Sora's quest or by the time Sora wakes in KH2). Xehanort has since lost his ability to wield the Keyblade after assuming possession of Terra's body and is only able to wield one temporarily upon possessing Riku. Roxas may qualify as a fifth wielder but he only exists while Sora is asleep, therefore at such time only three known wielders exist (apart from Xion); those being Roxas, Riku, and Mickey. BTW: If Roxas qualifies as a Keyblade Wielder then so does Terra's Armor, which doesn't exist beyond one purpose.

He still beat other powerful enemies in the game which didn't require the Keyblade to beat. (Maleficent & friends, Organization XIII, etc.)

At this point, the only thing that you're saying is "Well KH power is invalid because it's different from the form of power in FF" yet you still can't prove why you think it's invalid.

And even if what you said IS true, it doesn't matter at all. Sora still has more power than any FF character, since he beat an enemy more powerful than any enemies that the FF characters have faced in their respective universes. You can argue that Xemnas didn't truly have universal power all you want, because even if it were true, he still has more power than any FF villain + FF power source due to scale. It honestly doesn't matter where Sora's power came from, the fact is: it's still his own power.

Also, you act like "power of the heart" is the only power that exists in the KHverse.

The Keyblade was indeed pivotal to the defeat of the OXIII, and Maleficent and the other villains weren't defeated until they were overtaken by darkness and became Heartless.

I'm not saying the "power is invalid", I'm saying the power itself is stronger in the KH universe than what you'd find in an FF universe. If something took the Keyblade from Sora he'd be no stronger than the average FF character.

You're really very funny. I also find it curious that you would be so defensive about a statement declaring Sora to be no stronger than an FF character. I don't mean to imply he's weaker or who would win in a fight. I'm just saying that when Sora and any of these other characters are stripped of the assets they would usually equip, Sora would be no stronger.

The game is called Kingdom Hearts, the power source the villains are after is called Kingdom Hearts, Sora's strength is defined by the strength of his heart. Point being, this is a recurring Disney theme. The strong-hearted shall prevail always.

[PuPu]

You're the only one making this claim.

But my claim isn't that far-fetched. If you absorb God, you get supreme power and thus become God.

but every Heartless and Nobody and, yes, the Disney Villains became the Disney equivolent of HEARTLESS

The bolded item is not made of darkness. If you remember, Xemnas said that Nobodies were shunned by darkness.

Disney Villains aren't Heartless, so I have no idea what you mean by that. They're complete beings who use the powers of darkness.

were COMPOSED of the darkness which Sora defeated via use of the Keyblade.

That doesn't mean that it was the Keyblade which defeated them, or their darkness.

Jafar was defeated by being trapped in his lamp.
Ursula was defeated by being stabbed with Triton's Fork.
Hades was defeated by being thrown into the Underworld's depths.
etc.

Totally out of continuity, dude.

It was meant to show that people with a strong heart, aka people who are powerful in the KHverse, can wield a Keyblade.

The Keyblade was indeed pivotal to the defeat of the OXIII,

...the Keyblade wasn't necessary at all to defeat Organization XIII.

-Axel destroying Vexen with his fire attack.
-Riku destroying Lexaeus with Soul Eater.
-Riku Replica destroying Zexion by choking him with darkness.

If instead, you're arguing that the Keyblade is what gave Sora his power, still waiting for that proof.

and Maleficent and the other villains weren't defeated until they were overtaken by darkness and became Heartless.

...wat. They were never in Heartless form when Sora defeated them and they never became Heartless either.

I'm not saying the "power is invalid", I'm saying the power itself is stronger in the KH universe than what you'd find in an FF universe.

Not seeing how this even makes sense.

If something took the Keyblade from Sora he'd be no stronger than the average FF character.

Doubtful, because there's still no proof that it's the Keyblade that's giving Sora all of his superhuman abilities.

You're really very funny.

Irony. Was thinking the same thing about you.

I also find it curious that you would be so defensive about a statement declaring Sora to be no stronger than an FF character.

Pointing out why you're wrong = defensive?

I'm just saying that when Sora and any of these other characters are stripped of the assets they would usually equip, Sora would be no stronger.

...which you can't really prove at all, and have yet to do so.

The game is called Kingdom Hearts, the power source the villains are after is called Kingdom Hearts, Sora's strength is defined by the strength of his heart. Point being, this is a recurring Disney theme. The strong-hearted shall prevail always.

Power exists in many different forms, even in KH. After all, most of Organization XIII had no hearts, but they were still very powerful beings.

[Mercen-X]

But my claim isn't that far-fetched. If you absorb God, you get supreme power and thus become God.

KH is God.

You're the only one making this claim.

but every Heartless and Nobody and, yes, the Disney Villains became the Disney equivolent of HEARTLESS

The bolded item is not made of darkness. If you remember, Xemnas said that Nobodies were shunned by darkness.
Disney Villains aren't Heartless, so I have no idea what you mean by that. They're complete beings who use the powers of darkness.

Yeah, I'll go ahead and believe the manipulative Xemnas. W/e

were COMPOSED of the darkness which Sora defeated via use of the Keyblade.

That doesn't mean that it was the Keyblade which defeated them, or their darkness.
Jafar was defeated by being trapped in his lamp.
Ursula was defeated by being stabbed with Triton's Fork.
Hades was defeated by being thrown into the Underworld's depths.
etc.

None of which are examples of how each were truly defeated or even "defeated by Sora."

aka people who are powerful in the KHverse, can wield a Keyblade.

Mmhm. Strange how Vanitas (and at one point, Ansem-possessed Riku) is the only one who can wield a Keyblade. Obviously, Xemnas' lack of a complete being makes him less powerful even while absorbed of some of Kingdom Hearts. Otherwise, he should have been fighting Sora with another keyblade.

...the Keyblade wasn't necessary at all to defeat Organization XIII.
-Axel destroying Vexen with his fire attack.
-Riku destroying Lexaeus with Soul Eater.
-Riku Replica destroying Zexion by choking him with darkness.
If instead, you're arguing that the Keyblade is what gave Sora his power, still waiting for that proof.

None of those are examples of Sora defeating a powerful enemy without his Keyblade.

They were never in Heartless form when Sora defeated them and they never became Heartless either.

If we're to believe Xemnas, we might as well believe: Maleficent stated it herself the Heartless consume those who steep themselves in darkness which is exactly what each villain did. Maleficent becoming a dragon, Jafar - a genie, and Ursula - a giant, are all Kingdom Heart's equivolent of them becoming Heartless. The only Disney enemies Sora could legitimately claim defeat over are Hook and Clayton... and Czernobog.

I'm not saying the "power is invalid", I'm saying the power itself is stronger in the KH universe than what you'd find in an FF universe.

Not seeing how this even makes sense.

Disney theme. Disney character's "strength of heart" will always outmatch available resources in other games such as VII's materia.

If something took the Keyblade from Sora he'd be no stronger than the average FF character.

Doubtful, because there's still no proof that it's the Keyblade that's giving Sora all of his superhuman abilities.

Sora is a kid. Having a strong heart is not the same as having superhuman abilities. He certainly didn't have these abilities before obtaining the Keyblade.

Power exists in many different forms, even in KH. After all, most of Organization XIII had no hearts, but they were still very powerful beings.

Case in point. Without hearts, Organization XIII were incapable of defeating Sora. Even having absorbed some of Kingdom Hearts, Xemnas is not all-powerful while still missing his own heart.

[PuPu]

...KH is God, and denying that is denying truth. The ultimate power source in the KHverse. Similar to the statues of FF6, but to a larger extent. Kinda like how Kefka becomes God Kefka after absorbing the statues.

Yeah, I'll go ahead and believe the manipulative Xemnas. W/e

...but he's right. You can't just make up fanfiction like "Nobodies are made of darkness", or "Every enemy with dark powers is automatically a Heartless", or "Only the Keyblade can destroy people with dark powers" just because you refuse to believe what the game tells you.

None of which are examples of how each were truly defeated or even "defeated by Sora."

...you have an odd definition of "defeated" because none of those enemies would have been beaten (regardless of what it was that finished them) if not for Sora.

Strange how Vanitas (and at one point, Ansem-possessed Riku) is the only one who can wield a Keyblade.

...what the hell are you talking about?

Obviously, Xemnas' lack of a complete being makes him less powerful even while absorbed of some of Kingdom Hearts.

No, it doesn't. As said by Nomura, he's the strongest person in the KH games.

Otherwise, he should have been fighting Sora with another keyblade.

But he doesn't have a heart, so he can't use a Keyblade. Yet he is still the most powerful being in the KH games.

None of those are examples of Sora defeating a powerful enemy without his Keyblade.

I misunderstood what you meant then, because I thought you were trying to assert that "the Keyblade is necessary to defeat the Org and other beings of darkness." (which is still incorrect)

Still, you can't really use this argument as a case for why Sora's power depends on the Keyblade, because by this same logic, I can make the assertion that Cloud and Squall get their power from their weapons as well, since they are never seen defeating a powerful enemy without them.

Maleficent stated it herself the Heartless consume those who steep themselves in darkness which is exactly what each villain did.

Yeah, Riku steeped himself in darkness but never became a Heartless either. She isn't wrong, but it's just that it never happened to them. They never lost their hearts, and you've got nothing which proves that they did.

Maleficent becoming a dragon, Jafar - a genie, and Ursula - a giant, are all Kingdom Heart's equivolent of them becoming Heartless.

...no they aren't. That's called using darkness to make yourself more powerful. Riku Dark Mode and Anti-Form do similar things, yet they aren't turning themselves into Heartless. KH says you turn into a heartless when you lose control over the darkness, and it overpowers you and makes you lose your heart. Malef and all the other villains never lost their hearts, so they are simply complete beings that use darkness.

I also like how you took off the part where Malef said they turn into Heartless as a result of excessiveness of steeping into darkness.

The only Disney enemies Sora could legitimately claim defeat over are Hook and Clayton... and Czernobog.

...no, Sora can legitimately claim victory over every enemy he fought. See, your claim that every enemy Sora faced that uses darkness is a Heartless is pure, 100%, fanfiction.

Disney theme. Disney character's "strength of heart" will always outmatch available resources in other games such as VII's materia.

>declarative statement that has no proof

You've got this odd tendency of making declaratory statements as if they were fact, yet you almost never give explanation or proof behind anything you say.

Sora is a kid. Having a strong heart is not the same as having superhuman abilities.

He gained these superhuman abilities as a result of growth due to his experiences, like how all FF characters get stronger as a result of their experiences as well. In fact, he even got his abilities taken away from him at the start of CoM while he still had the Keyblade, but he still grew and became stronger.

He certainly didn't have these abilities before obtaining the Keyblade.

Yeah, and he didn't have these abilities before he started wearing a silver crown necklace either.

The problem is, you still can't prove that the Keyblade was the cause of his abilities, and not the result of his growth along his journey.

Without hearts, Organization XIII were incapable of defeating Sora.

...no. They were beaten because Sora was just plain better than them. Several strong beings were beaten by an even stronger being. Plain and simple.

See, here's the problem with almost all of your statements, Mercen. You stick together two random facts into a single statement and can't prove that the first fact is the cause of the second fact. Like, at all. Here, I can do it as well:

"Cloud has spikey blond hair, which is why he was able to defeat all of his enemies in FF7."

Even having absorbed some of Kingdom Hearts, Xemnas is not all-powerful while still missing his own heart.

No, Xemnas lost because Sora and Riku's teamwork > ALL.

Him not having a heart doesn't mean anything. He was still the most powerful being without it, and he became God when he absorbed KH. This is exactly what I meant before when I said that you pretend that the power of the heart is the only form of power in the KHverse.

EDIT:

Actually, this pretty much ends it right here.

In fact, he even got his abilities taken away from him at the start of CoM while he still had the Keyblade, but he still grew and became stronger.

Assuming that the Keyblade was the source of his power, like many are trying to say, then he should've still had his KH1 powers because the source (the Keyblade) was still there. But he didn't, meaning that it was not the Keyblade that was supplying him with powers.

[qwertysaur]

The only Disney villain to actually become a heartless is Scar. The keyblade is the most effective weapon against heartless as well as the only thing capable of releasing their captive hearts. Beings that are not heartless are not specifically weak to one, but that doesn't mean that hitting them with a blunt object wont do some damage.

In the manga adaption several Organization deaths were altered. Larxene dies because Sora, Donald and Goofy get her wet so when she uses her Lightning attacks she fries herself and that kills her. Xaldin dies after the fight with Sora when he escapes and a Vexen replica kills him. (Vexen makes several Replicas of himself during the CoM manga adaption, and for some reason one decides to kill Xaldin)

It is important to note that the only person Sora has killed on hs own is Luxord, every other major battle he has particpated in he has had some form of support.

(Also Kefka did not absorb the statues, only the magic that they were exchanging with each other as well as that of several espers. You fight the three statues before taking down Kefka himself )

[PuPu]

The only Disney villain to actually become a heartless is Scar.

This is correct. He becomes Groundshaker.

Beings that are not heartless are not specifically weak to one, but that doesn't mean that hitting them with a blunt object wont do some damage.

This is also correct. After all, Hercules never needed a Keyblade for him to defeat his enemies.

manga

Non-canon.

It is important to note that the only person Sora has killed on hs own is Luxord, every other major battle he has particpated in he has had some form of support.

...you don't need to kill somebody to defeat them in battle. If you change it to "defeated in battle" the list becomes much bigger, and includes Xemnas as well.

Also Kefka did not absorb the statues, only the magic that they were exchanging with each other as well as that of several espers. You fight the three statues before taking down Kefka himself

This is just plain nitpicking, and hardly changes what I said. :\

[Crop]

Larxene dies because Sora, Donald and Goofy get her wet

[P4ine]

what did pupu get banned for?

[Mercen-X]

he's still be an incredibly skilled swordsman, able to slice through buildings and such.

We don't know that Sora can slice through buildings in any area other than the World That Never Was. As far as we can tell, they might not have actually been real (durable) buildings.

::: You know, I still can't seem to find it. Where the hell does Nomura mention that Xemnas is the strongest in the Kingdom Hearts universe? Is there a link?

[Forsaken Lover]

This is a sad, sad thread. Kh continues to be a blight on Final Fantasy.

Neo Exdeath: I am Neo Exdeath... All memory, existence, and dimensions...All that is shall be returned to nothing.

Neo Exdeath was going to erase universeS. Plural. So the mighty Mansex's universal powers really aren't that unfathomable.

And how about Ultimecia?

"Ultimecia, transformed to absorb all time and space. Absorbing all existence as we speak."

Why she's sucking in the entire universe into herself.

It should serve as a mark of how low KH is that I'm supporting Ultimecia over it.

So, no, Sora can't beat every FF character. I doubt he could beat even lesser villains like Sin.

[Sephiroth]

Now that the guy who doesn't understand that truth exists even if there is no proof because proof can only exist when something what needs to be proven exists before, is banned, we can use that thread without any problems again and discuss about how cool and powerful Sora is, but hopefully with facts and no wannabe-arguments like those I have read from some guy I never want to talk to again.

First of all - Sora is very, very powerful. He gets stronger and stronger during the story and that's fact. It is simply because his heart becomes stronger. Stronger by his experience and by his friends. Of course not only his heart collects experience, but that's the real source of power in the universe of Kingdom Hearts.

But Sora has the problem that he can only use that potential of himself when he has a Keyblade, a weapon which is proof enough, that his heart is a strong one. And no character in Final Fantasy and also no non-Keyblade character in Kingdom Hearts has that problem. They all have enough other abilities to fight, like psychic abilities, magic or whatever and Sora is, no matter how strong he gets in stats, no all-powerful magician in the storyline. Donald is definitely stronger in terms of magic than Sora since Donald is a wizard and Sora focusses on swordsman-skills.

Then:

No matter what people think, not only Scar becomes a Heartless. Maleficent's Dragon form is not only a normal form she transforms into like she does outside of the Castle of Slumber, it is also her Heartless form. When Ansem's Heart's Legacy - the Keyblade which is made of the heart of Belle, Jasmin, Cinderella, Snow White, Alice and the Sleeping Beauty - opens your heart it releases and strengthens the darkness within to let it control you and you become a heartless. And even though Jafar, Ursula, et cetera didn't become traditional heartless they are also heartless-like.

About Kingdom Hearts:

Kingdom Hearts is the source of all hearts in the Kingdom Hearts universe. But comparing it to "God" "who" people believe to be the omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent creator of everything is just wrong. Kingdom Hearts is really thought to be a omnipresent power which is incredible but just to say it is "God" in Kingdom Hearts is a joke. Especially that "Absorb God and you become God" math experiment. Not to mention that Xemnas' Kingdom Hearts was artificial and damaged by Ansem the Wise. And there is nothing more to say about that.

Xemnas is the most powerful Kingdom Hearts character. And the story proves that Sora alone is not able to defeat him. So the question of Sora being the most powerful Kingdom Hearts character is answered with the first post of the thread already. And I highly, I highly doubt that Sora would even stand a chance against the reborn version of Xehanort. That's the final battle of this Kingdom Hearts Saga and writing a main villain who can be defeated by the main character only is not going to happen. That's not Final Fantasy-like. And Kingdom Hearts is the child of Final Fantasy.

No what about Sora and the characters he is compared to?

Lord Garland/Chaos:

Garland creates a time loop and uses the power of the orbs to gain the power of Chaos, and Dissidia even shows that it is the natural power of Chaos, a power which is a old and great as the void, so he is not only a monster called "Chaos", even though that was definitely the meaning 25 years ago.

Emperor Mateus Paramecia :

Mateus reigns an empire, teaches the meaning of fear is manipulative and rules the afterlife as Lucifer himself.

Zande:

Zande freezes time and summons a Dark Cloud which should reset everything

Zemus:

Zemus controls minds even though he is sealed away and can return by nothing but hatred once he is dead.

Lord X-Death:

Is a fusion of evil souls possessing a tree who is almost immortal so he had to be sealed away and even within his seal he was able to command his servants to destroy the crystals. He is an incredibly strong Black Mage who can create illusions, so he let the Otherworld crystals look like monsters so that Bartz and the others destroy them and open the Rift. He can transform into a part of a tree or a tree himself and even though his will was not strong enough he controlled the power of the void for some time. And the his true power, the power of Neo X-Death, so the fusion of the evil souls which were sealed in the forest and which are released and controlled by the void in the end is incredible.

Commander Kefka Palazzo:

Is extremely manipulative and so insane you never know what his next step is. Even though he plans to restore the statues and absorbs some Esper's power before he absorbed their power as a spontaneous action when Celes hurt him with a sword. Then he devastates the world, builds a giant tower of trash and makes the land infertile with his Light of Judgment.

Sephiroth:

Has a stronger will than everyone else and an indestructable one. He can control JENOVA cells and also use them to regenerate and reunite. He can absorb life energy, will power and knowledge, everything which is the source of the true power in Final Fantasy VII and since he resists the lifestream he became so strong that he doesn't need Materia for magic if the knowledge of how to use it is within the lifestream. He can create illusions which look and feell as if they were real and since he has the strongest and most powerful will of all he can easily fool everyone. He has the ability to shapeshift, he has psychic abilities like levitating/flying, telekineses and telepathy and reading minds and memories, he can teleport, he can go through matter, et cetera. He is the strongest wizard, no wonder with the strongest will which can get stronger limitless and he is the strongest swordsman and the one one who can use Masamune like he does and not only with the Iai-Style since it is a very long and heavy Nodachi. And he can destroy the solar system, no matter what people think. Stats = Nothing, Scene: Demonstration of Story Abilities.

AND: Before Advent Children he even reassured not to fade by linking his existence with Cloud's memories.

Ultimecia:

She can control the power of other Ultimecia's one they die in another time period to control other witches in another time period and so take a look at that time period with her conciousness. She is an incredibly powerful Time Mage. She can read minds and make them real.

Baron Kuja "King":

He is a Weapon Seller who manipulates a queen, darkens her heart and finally absorbs it to get into Trance mode. He destroy a planet. Then he "just" wants to destroy the Existence Crystal. But, no, no way he is powerful. He is just a Super Saiyan 4.

Maester Seymour Guado:

Very manipulative and a genius in terms of strategies. Physically pushes back a I don't know how many tons-heavy [Sin] Spawn. Wants to destroy all lifeforms to release them and he even does destroy many of them. And most of it as an Unsent One.

Emperor Vayne Cardias Solidor:

Like Seymour very manipulative and a genius in terms of strategies. He also wants to make things easier by destroying them and teams with Venat to destroy the Undying Ones. He has a super airship, the Bahamut and uses manufacted Nethicite. And then he fuses with Venat to become an Undying One himself who is able to destroy a whole airship just with a beam of his Aura.

Galenth Dysley:

Manipulates the heroes and forces them to go through a whole Final Fantasy. Strong enough to kill them all. Nothing more to say.

Like the true Sephiroth says to Sora:

"I admit you're very skilled."

And that's about it. No more and no less. Only the dirt Sephiroth wipes off of his leather coat once he is done with Sora.

[Tigmafuzz]

Ultimate analysis and comparison of all Final Fantasy games and Kingdom Hearts that practically nobody can disagree with: /thread.

Baron Kuja "King":
He is a Weapon Seller who manipulates a queen, darkens her heart and finally absorbs it to get into Trance mode. He destroy a planet. Then he "just" wants to destroy the Existence Crystal. But, no, no way he is powerful. He is just a Super Saiyan 4.

Lol.

[Jiro]

While that mammoth post is appreciated, this thread is quite old and, like you mentioned, the guy you're trying to disprove is banned. If you want to make a new thread, go right ahead, otherwise this one is having a nap.