Boys are silly in general. :/Originally Posted by Dignified Pauper
Boys are silly in general. :/
Tr00f. I think Tidus and Yuna kiss like, what, once? This is not GTA ppplzzzzzz.
I think we've set an apocalypse in motion D:
The fanfiction flood will still come
Agreed. It was a poor example given the discussion. My point was about subjecting oneself to something one knows he or she doesn't enjoy. Certainly a game having a gay character does not mean it is about the gay content as you say. However, you imply that the mere presence of something that one knows negatively affects ones enjoyment is not a valid reason not to partake of it. People don't partake in entertainment containing persons or ideas they don't enjoy all the time, even when said entertainment is not about those persons or ideas. (see further down)Also, to return to what I said early about the difference between having a gay character and a game being about homosexuality. Gay porn is about the gay content, regardless of the orientation of the actors. So make the comparison between a game has a gay character and a gay pornography is really not a valid point.
(1) I made no claim as to whether a homophobe would play the game or not. I merely said that playing a game with a homosexual character does not make you not a homophobe.Also, it would be highly unlikely that a homophobe would play a game with a gay character. They'd likely try to ban it without ever trying to play it.
If somebody claims "I played vXIII even though it had a gay character, so I'm not a homophobe," I would consider it roughly equivalent to the statement "I watch NBA basketball, so I'm not a racist." IOW it's a vacuous claim that proves nothing, regardless of how much FF fans want to believe that games are substitutes for real life.
(2) I maintain that not everybody who is homophobic identifies themselves as a homophobe, or realizes that they are one. That is, in part the problem here. You seem to be implying that homophobes are monsters who crusade to rid the world of homosexuality. It's not that black and white. Just as racism can manifest in something as little as bringing one's purse up to communion in church when one would not otherwise because a black family is in the same pew, homophobia can be as subtle as scooting away from a guy with pink hair and pierced ears on the subway.
I'm not sure why you felt the need to personally attack me. Let's review:How would you not enjoy it if the lead is gay? I play plenty of games with straight leads and I still enjoy the games. The character's sexuality has nothing to do with it. Truthfully, if there are explicit sexual scenes then yes, I would get uncomfortable. However, to simply say you would not enjoy a game simply because of the sexual orientation of a character is quite ludicrous, especially if it only plays a minor or incidental role. Otherwise, most gay gamers would, by your logic, not enjoy most video games with heterosexual males as a lead.
"...choosing to not immerse oneself in something one knows he or she would not enjoy."
"Oneself" and "he or she," not "myself" and "I."
I NEVER said that I -- personally -- would not play the game. In fact, I would never say that because I -- personally -- have no problem playing a gay character. I -- personally -- think it would be interesting to see a story with one functioning as the main character. And I -- personally -- would be content if vXIII went that route. I was defending the choice of those who said they don't think they would enjoy it if it had a homosexual character, which I happen to think is a valid reason to not to play a game with one.
You can substitute "2-year-old," "hick," "viking," "Leonardo di Caprio," and "raging feminist" for "homosexual" -- if it's presence inhibits your enjoyment of something meant to be entertaining, why would you choose to subject yourself to it?
Anyway, is homophobia logical? Personally, I don't think so -- phobias are (generally) not -- but that doesn't mean people who are homophobic don't feel what they do, and that they are not entitled to those feelings. I think, in the long run, trying to be understanding is a lot better than going around suggesting people who don't like homosexuals are stupid, worthless excuses for human beings.
I understand where homophobia stems from, but I'm also entitled to my hatred of it. Also, I fail to see how playing a game that just happens to have a gay male character lead [and probably won't have any on-screen romance, as I said] out of 92394823 video games that don't have gay males PERIOD, is considered "immersing yourself in homosexuality".
Yes, but I'd like to redirect and be more specific based on what you said. Let's flip that.
1) Choosing not to play a game with a homosexual character in it.
2) Choosing not to play a game because it has a homosexual character in it.
The former, I've actually done myself [Enchanted Arms, the battle system looked boring to me]. Elpizo has no problem stating that he's part of the latter, so there's really no dispute there. That is in essence, a form of homophobia. Here's a hypothetical scenario I jokingly cooked up while talking with The Summoner of Leviathan:
In Elpizo's statement, the mere thought of a character being gay [yet again, even if this were true, there likely wouldn't be any on-screen romance] is enough to turn him away from a potentially good game "-200%" by his own words [later he attempted to soften this by saying "well I'm just 'disinterested'"]. God forbid if a gay guy were actually around him in person - that's even worse than seeing a gay video game character on-screen. Fly outta there man! It's okay, we know it's only because you're "disinterested". We also know that merely having a gay guy in your vicinity, or even worse, a friend that's a gay guy - is AUTOMATICALLY qualified as "immersing yourself in homosexuality". This is absolutely true 100% no exceptions.[09:36.09 PM] Khalin: lol
[09:36.13 PM] Khalin: claiming to not be homophobic
[09:36.38 PM] Khalin: so what, if an actual gay guy were in his vicinity - oh my! he'd bail out of there so fast
[09:36.41 PM] Khalin: smurfing speeding bullet
[09:36.47 PM] Khalin: oh but don't worry he's not homophobic
[09:36.51 PM] Khalin: he's just "disinterested"
Give me a Xanax.
I'm not defending anyone here, but I would like to point out that if a characters sexual orientation is noteworthy then there is probably some sort of romantic plot involved at some level. Though not impossible it is highly improbable that they would inform us of something that doesn't even come up in the game.
Can you think how ridiculous it would be to announce a character that had not romantic interactions through the game (lets say Sabin) as homosexual?
Eagle from Street Fighter doesn't have any romance. It's a successful and well-respected series. I'm pretty sure however, that Elpizo either had no initial interest in Street Fighter, or has played it but will now never play it again because it has a character that isn't straight. To play Street Fighter would be "immersing yourself in homosexuality".
I sincerely apologize Kahlin, I improperly identified you as the initial responder...
Edited to gray out unwarranted commentary.
Please stop putting words in my mouth. It's dishonest and horribly rude.
I never said "immersing yourself in homosexuality."
I said "immerse oneself in something one knows he or she would not enjoy." As far as my post was concerned, that something, in this case, is a "[I]game[/I] with a homosexual character." To me, that is the same as, say, a "game with a female lead." As you pointed out before, having something in it is not the same as being about it. I agreed with you, and admitted my later porn example was poor because that is not what I was trying to suggest. Now you appear to be backtracking on your initial response in order to continue trying to fight with me, because you decided you don't like me...believing me to be a homophobe when I am actually far closer to your side than theirs. I merely don't agree with your hatred toward them. I find hatred despicable no matter who it is directed toward.
Again, you are raging over nothing, taking things out of context and trying create an argument that doesn't exist because you believed me to be a homophobe and therefore felt the need to dispute everything I wrote.Yes, but there's a difference here. Let's be more specific, based on what you said.
1) Choosing not to play a game with a homosexual character in it.
2) Choosing not to play a game because it has a homosexual character in it.
I meant exactly what I said here, very literally:
"Anyway, just as not playing a game with a homosexual character doesn't make you a homophobe, playing a game with a homosexual character doesn't make you not a homophobe. It's basically indicative of nothing in and of itself."
It was a criticism of homophobes who were trying to "prove" that they were not ones because they would play vXIII (or implying that playing vXIII would prove thus, as I felt some people in this thread were doing). I'm arguing that their playing vXIII doesn't make them not homophobes.
You then implied that I was wrong because it was unlikely any homophobe would play vXIII. In my previous post I explained why I think you are wrong:
"(2) I maintain that not everybody who is homophobic identifies themselves as a homophobe, or realizes that they are one. That is, in part the problem here. You seem to be implying that homophobes are monsters who crusade to rid the world of homosexuality. It's not that black and white. Just as racism can manifest in something as little as bringing one's purse up to communion in church when one would not otherwise because a black family is in the same pew, homophobia can be as subtle as scooting away from a guy with pink hair and pierced ears on the subway."
I never said I didn't think Elpizo was a homophobe. I never mentioned him at all in fact.In Elpizo's statement, the mere thought of a character being gay [yet again, even if this were true, there likely wouldn't be any on-screen romance] is enough to turn him away from a potentially good game "-200%" by his own words [later he attempted to soften this by saying "well I'm just 'disinterested'"].
And I NEVER said that not wanting to play a game with a homosexual character was not homophobic. I merely said that:
"I don't think there is anything wrong with choosing to not immerse oneself in something one knows he or she would not enjoy."
If the reason one would not enjoy it is ultimately because they are homophobic, I believe that is a valid reason, just as I think it would be valid to not want to play a game in which you only controlled, say, a female character. I don't think homophobia is logical, and I wish that they wouldn't be homophobic, but I do think that playing something you don't like is silly, even if your reason for not liking it is a poor one. I don't see any reason why a homophobe should be forced to play vXIII if Noctis were gay, not to mention forced to play to prove that they aren't homophobic.
Last edited by Crowseye; 04-01-2010 at 07:23 AM.
My whole point is the fact that someone is gay, shouldn't take away from the entertainment--that their sexual orientation should be incidental not defining (I am well aware that this is not always the case in life either). While acknowledge that people will not watch "X show" because they don't like the main actor or that someone pro-life will not watch a pro-abortion documentary, etc...I feel that there is a difference between that and the fact that someone won't the Cosby Show because it's cast is mostly black, or Brothers & Sisters because one of the main characters is gay, or not reading Harry Potter because you found out Dumbledore was gay.
I don't like Sienfield because I don't find it funny and the character of George aggravates me. However, were I not to like Sienfield because Jerry Sienfield is Jewish, then that would be another story. That'd be considered racist, to a degree at least. Not playing knowing no more than the main character is gay shows a degree of homophobia, no matter how you spill it. Like you said, it is not so black and white and can be expressed in minor ways.
You claimed that not playing a game with a gay a character is not homophobic, just as playing a game with a gay character doesn't mean you are not a homophobe. I get that, I wasn't arguing that. I was merely pointing out the fact that by virtue of their homophobia, it is highly unlikely that a homophobe would be playing a game with a gay character.(1) I made no claim as to whether a homophobe would play the game or not. I merely said that playing a game with a homosexual character does not make you not a homophobe.Also, it would be highly unlikely that a homophobe would play a game with a gay character. They'd likely try to ban it without ever trying to play it.
If somebody claims "I played vXIII even though it had a gay character, so I'm not a homophobe," I would consider it roughly equivalent to the statement "I watch NBA basketball, so I'm not a racist." IOW it's a vacuous claim that proves nothing, regardless of how much FF fans want to believe that games are substitutes for real life.
(2) I maintain that not everybody who is homophobic identifies themselves as a homophobe, or realizes that they are one. That is, in part the problem here. You seem to be implying that homophobes are monsters who crusade to rid the world of homosexuality. It's not that black and white. Just as racism can manifest in something as little as bringing one's purse up to communion in church when one would not otherwise because a black family is in the same pew, homophobia can be as subtle as scooting away from a guy with pink hair and pierced ears on the subway.
I merely listed the banning of the game as an activity of theirs for at the time I had in my mind an image of the more vocal American Right-Wing Bible Belt criticizing such game and calling for it to be banned for the "safety of society" or whatever bullthey spew.
I've never said that homophobia doesn't come in a variety of expressions, I merely pointed the more obvious ones that come to mind.
That being said, to merely not play a game based on the solely in the knowledge that the main character is gay is homophobic. More in the vein of what you said with it being expressed in minor and not obvious veins but it is homophobic or of a homophobic sentiment.
Sorry if you took it as a personal attack, though I did not mean it that way. I apologize. My bad.I'm not sure why you felt the need to personally attack me. Let's review:How would you not enjoy it if the lead is gay? I play plenty of games with straight leads and I still enjoy the games. The character's sexuality has nothing to do with it. Truthfully, if there are explicit sexual scenes then yes, I would get uncomfortable. However, to simply say you would not enjoy a game simply because of the sexual orientation of a character is quite ludicrous, especially if it only plays a minor or incidental role. Otherwise, most gay gamers would, by your logic, not enjoy most video games with heterosexual males as a lead.
"...choosing to not immerse oneself in something one knows he or she would not enjoy."
"Oneself" and "he or she," not "myself" and "I."
I NEVER said that I -- personally -- would not play the game. In fact, I would never say that because I -- personally -- have no problem playing a gay character. I -- personally -- think it would be interesting to see a story with one functioning as the main character. And I -- personally -- would be content if vXIII went that route. I was defending the choice of those who said they don't think they would enjoy it if it had a homosexual character, which I happen to think is a valid reason to not to play a game with one.
You can substitute "2-year-old," "hick," "viking," "Leonardo di Caprio," and "raging feminist" for "homosexual" -- if it's presence inhibits your enjoyment of something meant to be entertaining, why would you choose to subject yourself to it?
However, what I said is still valid. Heterosexuals will not get sympathies from homosexuals because they are potentially being exposed to homosexual displays. We see heterosexuality displayed all the time, everywhere we go.
Also, I have to agree, yes they can choose not to play a game because the main character is homosexual. Just as I can choose not to play a game because the main character is heterosexual. I never said anything about infringing upon their rights. All I am saying is that it is ludicrous to do so (not play a game simply on the basis of a character's sexual orientation). Furthermore, it is a double standard. Heterosexuality is taken as a given, a default that no one would really think twice about. However, that is not the case as soon as the character is not heterosexual.
Phobias are fears or hatred of something, in more mild forms it appears as a dislike or discomfort of said object. Yes, they can come in various degrees. I'm mildly acrophobic, so heights make me uncomfortable and nervous.Anyway, is homophobia logical? Personally, I don't think so -- phobias are (generally) not -- but that doesn't mean people who are homophobic don't feel what they do, and that they are not entitled to those feelings. I think, in the long run, trying to be understanding is a lot better than going around suggesting people who don't like homosexuals are stupid, worthless excuses for human beings.
Homophobia, as well, comes in many degrees and ways. Simply not playing a game solely because the main character is gay is homophobic. Not like those who say all gays should die, but homophobic nonetheless. Perhaps mildly homophobic would be an apt description. However, choosing not to play a game, for whatever reasons, that has a gay character is not homophobic in and of itself. There's a difference. A key difference.
Also, I know that was target at me, but I think that while homophobes are misinformed and ignorant (more in the Platonic sense than anything), I don't think they are worthless excuses of human being. Okay, the ones that preach that all gays should be killed or die are douchebags, but I still would treat them as human.
Yes I know, however this stems off the notion of Elpizo refusing to play the game because Noctis might [thought doubtfully] be gay. Hence my using your words in that context. I just put in "homosexuality" there because in this case for him, that would be the "something he knows he wouldn't enjoy" part.
Okay well I consider this to be actually putting words in someone's mouth, or just misunderstanding. I might be poking at your words, however they're directed mostly at Elpizo [which is why I'm saying his name often]. I'm not really mentioning you aside from quoting your words.
If someone murders my mother, I'm going to hate them. Doesn't matter. I find it to be a justifiable hatred because it was blatant harm [which I find unacceptable]. Now, this isn't murder obviously, but it's someone that's showing apparent disgust at the notion of a video game possibly having one of "my kind" in it. So yes, don't expect me to like said person. That's ridiculous. I don't understand why you expect me to actually like homophobes, when I'm gay.
And by the way [this is directed at Elpizo], I'm not accepting this "disinterested" trash. It's misuse of the word. Being disinterested in something implies impartiality and indifference - ie. something along the lines of "eh, doesn't matter if he's gay or not". However, that is not the case here. The case is - "Wow, a gay male lead? -200% interest - screw that".
–adjective
1.
unbiased by personal interest or advantage; not influenced by selfish motivesI didn't think you were a homophobe, just Elpizo. By the way, I think you started writing this post a really long time ago, because you misquoted me [not on purpose]. I changed this portion of my post a long time ago because I didn't write what I want to say correctly, probably after you had already started writing. Anyways, the point of this argument of course is to show how I believe his reasoning for not wanting to play the game is based on homophobia. I repeat - it has nothing to do with you, which is why I mention his name in my post, and not yours. I'm attacking the possible defense for him, yes, but it's ultimately only aimed at Elpizo. There's a difference. Your post last page stated that you wouldn't mind and that you'd actually find a gay character interesting or whatever, so obviously I acknowledge that you aren't really homophobic.
Yes, I know that. That portion of the post wasn't even directed at you. It's directed at Elpizo. Again, I merely attacked the notion of playing a game with a gay character being "immersing yourself in homosexuality", which in this case "homosexuality" would be the "thing you don't enjoy", hence my using that line.
Short version: I think you misinterpreted most of my post as attacking you, when most of it was actually against Elpizo.
I think he will deny this and later come out, like Lance Bass and Ricky Martin.
Oh Lu~
Oh wait, okay Crowseye I just read your apology portion of your post [I was wondering why your text suddenly turned grey]. Don't worry about it man, we're cool.
I agree with you completely. That is what I believe too. It shouldn't.
But it does. I am saying that because it does, I think it's okay that they don't want to play the game. I'm certainly not saying we should pat them on the back and congratulate them for their homophobia -- but I think there are better approaches than going around calling people homophobes and telling them their reasons are stupid (particularly when said person does not want to admit, or is not aware of, their own homophobia).
Yep, never said knowing you would not enjoy a game because it had a homosexual character, is not homophobic. It definitely is. We agree on that.I don't like Sienfield because I don't find it funny and the character of George aggravates me. However, were I not to like Sienfield because Jerry Sienfield is Jewish, then that would be another story. That'd be considered racist, to a degree at least. Not playing knowing no more than the main character is gay shows a degree of homophobia, no matter how you spill it. Like you said, it is not so black and white and can be expressed in minor ways.
I understand. I'm certainly not pleading for sympathy for homophobes. I'm not trying to excuse homophobic behavior directed at homosexuals. I don't like homophobia. But it exists. Calling somebody a homophobe is not usually going to make them sincerely try not to be one IMO. A person certainly can--and should--choose not to act on one's homophobia, but while a person can try to not be homophobic in the psychological sense, it's not as simple as that IMO. There are reflexes and tendencies built up from spending years in a society that detests homosexuality that one simply cannot overcome in a day by willing them.However, what I said is still valid. Heterosexuals will not get sympathies from homosexuals because they are potentially being exposed to homosexual displays. We see heterosexuality displayed all the time, everywhere we go.
Admitting one is a homophobe, or racist, or whatever, and trying to recognize those reflexes or tendencies is one of the first steps to changing them (as I have been told in numerous conferences on the matter /shrug ). Accusing somebody of something tends to be a surefire way to get them to vehemently claim the opposite.
Agreed. There is a double standard. I would never say that a homosexual should enjoy the gazillion games out there with all heterosexual characters. Hopefully, some day, gamers, developers, and publishers recognize that the gaming community also consists of homosexual players.Furthermore, it is a double standard. Heterosexuality is taken as a given, a default that no one would really think twice about. However, that is not the case as soon as the character is not heterosexual.
Agreed. If somebody doesn't play vXIII (with a homosexual Noctis), and their reason is, say, because they don't like the Final Fantasy series. That's certainly not homophobic. That's what I meant when I suggested that "not playing a game with a homosexual character doesn't make you homophobic."Homophobia, as well, comes in many degrees and ways. Simply not playing a game solely because the main character is gay is homophobic. Not like those who say all gays should die, but homophobic nonetheless. Perhaps mildly homophobic would be an apt description. However, choosing not to play a game, for whatever reasons, that has a gay character is not homophobic in and of itself. There's a difference. A key difference.
And yes, not playing a game because of the presence of a homosexual character is homophobic (whether that homophobia is admitted to or not).
I understand that (many/most) homosexuals are (probably) angry for what they have had to put up with, in games and everything else. I just personally don't think that striving for some sort of "payback" or trying to shame people out of their homophobia is going to be good for anybody in the long run. (Of course, violent homophobes we should get rid of immediately).
My opinion?
Whatever.
everything is wrapped in gray
i'm focusing on your image
can you hear me in the void?
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