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Thread: EoFF Elections 2010, Debate Thread!

  1. #91
    GO! use leech seed! qwertysaur's Avatar
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    but what about ponies?

  2. #92
    Ghost 'n' Stuff NorthernChaosGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Paulpatine View Post
    is it a pony?

    e: a zomby pony?
    Why do you keep spelling zombie wrong? o_O

  3. #93
    No votes for you! Recognized Member Election Booth's Avatar
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    Great job everyone, now periodically throughout the day, the winners of each individual debate will be posted, tallying up to determine who will be the winner of the beginning of the debates, and get to choice when their president wants to post their argument, first, or as a rebuttal!

    But that begs the question, how will the winner of the beginning rounds be chosen? The rounds have been judged in secret by the one, the only, guess the name!

    Taaaaaaaaaaaaavroooooooooooobeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeel!

    Here are his thoughts on the first round!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavrobel
    Quote Originally Posted by Election Booth View Post
    EoFF and Pranks:
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie Party
    The Zombie Party is of the opinion that pranks on Eyes on FF are bitchin'. They're a fun way to mix things up a little and cause wacky situations. However, not all pranks are appropriate for EoFF. Here are all the types of pranks that we feel are best kept off the forums:

    - Pranks that smurfing suck.

    Like, for example, Raistlin's recent prank. His grand scheme to destroy the staff was to pretend to post porn and get them to consider whether or not they should ban him. JOKE'S ON THEM, HE DIDN'T ACTUALLY POST IT!!!! In order to accomplish this goal, he spent countless hours typing out long, whiny debating posts, indistinguishable from the usual crap he spews, which were largely ignored. The effort he put in really doesn't match the payoff he got for it, and after his General Chat gloating thread, it all became a toe-curling and awkward affair.

    For reference, THIS is Raistlin:



    Just imagine this vile, sweaty man, cackling away to himself as he hammers out another post decrying the staff. Go on. Do it. And then tell me that utterly dire pranks like the one he pulled should be allowed. If you're still on the fence about this, let me just give you the quote that accompanies this photo:

    "I tried to look hot/slutty cupping my perky boobs and giving a kissy face"

    I rest my case.
    Okay, great, but you didn't really answer anything. What I got from your post was that only pranks that do not suck should be allowed. What's your criteria for not sucking? You can't just bring in a qualifier and not say anything about it. You've got to elaborate on it more. All you gave was one, sweeping statement, and a post that was made up of an image of Raistlin.

    You've told us that Raistlin has a paradigm of pranks, but what if we don't agree? What exactly is the stance that you believe in? It's perfectly reasonable that the second part of your post contradicts the first part of your post. It's not at all clear what we should be supporting about Raistlin, which to be frank, does not even answer the question. In the way you've inserted Raistlin into your argument, it is completely irrelevant to the core of your argument.

    Nice try, but you're not convincing anyone. And to be even more forward, that image was as pointless as your post. Learn not to suck, or at least, follow up on your statements. This argument could have been so much more of, you know, an argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by 501st Party
    Ok, wow; sorry everybody, it’s just a little bit hard to rebut arguments when none are really made, but the 501st will do our best. From what we can gather in that horrible excuse for an argument, the Zombie Party seem to think that “pranks on Eyes on FF are bitchin’” and are trying to argue that they should be a part of the forums, unless they involve raistlin posing in his bikini.

    We at the 501st think that with all the recent heart ache and stress that the latest run of pranks have caused that the Zombie Party wouldn’t be so quick to jump to the defence of malicious and hurtful pranks, many of which are little more than an inside joke done to a much larger scale. Although it is obvious that some pranks are completely harmless and can be a fun little event for the forum (examples being name and set changes), the majority of large scale pranks tend to cause more anger, stress and butt-hurt than humour



    Exhibit A shows the temporary March spike in activity as users were forced to post in the name of a fake CK competition, before finally realising they'd been duped; causing wide spread butt-hurt, anger, and a general decline in enjoyment.

    It’s all well and good for the members who are in on the joke (or suspect something is going on) to sit back and have a chuckle, but EoFF has a large community that expands every day, and a large number of the pranks that are done create a tumultuous forum environment, that can confuse and push away not only new members, but also long time members. In the latest pranks to occur (‘CK comp’ and ‘angry long posts by raistlin are angry and long’) most of the people on the forum were fed up with reading the thousands of lines worth of text that were being posted in the feedback forum, long before the prank was due to be revealed. Not only that, but the staff themselves have admitted that it was cruel to make the latter half of the ‘potential CKs’ do all that work (mountains of posts and threads, which actually served to annoy almost as many people as they amused).


    Exhibit B is a little diddy we at 501st HQ like to call ADMISSION OF GUILT!!

    The latest pranks had many people angry during the time they were being done, and even during the aftermath. Mogi is but one example of a person who didn’t really see the ‘APRIL FOOLS GUYS, lololol’ side of the joke. We in the 501st legion have heard stories from some of our new recruits about how they were really quite confused about what was going on in the forum, and if we hadn’t given them neat matching uniforms and structure then they may not have stuck around for the long run. Also, let's not forget that in the latest prank the members of EoFF (a large grouping of which are under 18) were exposed to porn, all in the name of some personal vendetta that one member shared against the staff. If that isn't the epitome of a prank going to far, then what is?


    Exhibit C: What the Shlup!? They are lying to us!!!

    But the latest prank isn't the only time that these 'harmless jokes' have ended in problems. The lucky bags are an example of pranks that have caused rifts in the member base. In the most recent of these events one of the evil zombie members (RottingYuna89) turned on one of her own staff members and had him banned. Needless to say, hurt feelings and a large member rift ensued.

    We’re not saying that the pranks aren’t funny for people, because as we said, there is a very large cross section at EoFF, and not everyone reacts the same way. But when we have staff and long time members warring with each other in the name of lulz, showing a divided front to new and old members alike, making dedicated posters jump through hoops for no reason, then we feel that you may as well just join the 501st...because the whole forum has obviously succumbed to the dark side already.
    You know, my junior year history teacher once told me that if you use exhibits or references, they should be sparse, and more on the analysis side. And use a better forum skin. The aerisboob scheme sucks.

    Pranks are obvious? Since when? As far as I know, they're deliberate attempts made on a person's or a group's ego for the sake of personal amusement. That puts the pulling party into the position of the one that knows. Why, it's not obvious at all. At least you're right about pranks having downsides.

    Where is this chart's source? You can't just draw lines around to prove your point. You fail statistics forever. Count your lucky stars that you at least made your x-axis clear, or else I would be deducting points like an exam printed on red paper.

    Your argument brings up a compelling point that not everyone sees pranks as pranks, and that more often than not, the prank gets a little old halfway through. Additionally, you've brought up the point of potentially causing a communal schism, which I don't think I have to point out (but will), is precisely the opposite of what a community wants.

    I do have to ask, just who managed to get banned by Rye? For all of your exhibit use, it's a little suspicious that you'd omit this reference.

    Goddamnit, advertisement plugs.
    FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie Party
    The elections are supposed to be fun. A time for laughter and merriment. So to that end we've played a few harmless pranks on our rivals, such as changing their user names, renaming threads, and killing them 687 times. Okay, maybe that last one wasn't so harmless, but the point stands!

    It's not at all surprising that the 501st Party are trying to criticise pranks when they themselves flip out at the slightest provocation. They take even the tiniest thing DEADLY SERIOUSLY, bless their ragin' little hearts, and it's just so adorable! Don't believe me? Behold, the gallery of elections whining:















    BONUS GALLERY: NorthernChaosWookiee dies 687 times. Despite all his rage, he is still just a rat in a cage.
    (SPOILER)











    Now, while it is pretty hilarious to the rest of us watching you all get really butthurt about all the silly little pranks we pull on you, it's probably not healthy! So let us get now to the point of all of this, and end with a piece of advice for our dear sweet opponents who allow themselves to get all worked up over the internet:

    Enjoy, you big babies!
    What is the point of your post? You seem to be putting the reactions of the other party on the spotlight, even though the question is about pranks, not general events. I love the ad hominem attack at the end. Here's a better one: you suck. Why should I care that you killed him 687 times? For all we know, he could have killed you over 9000 times, and you're trying to impress us by numbers. It doesn't work that way. If you present numbers, you've got to present some of the opposing party's numbers as well, even if they're falsified. At least try to fake it.

    This round goes to the 501st, for having a more compelling argument. Well, that's actually not true. They get this round for having an argument in the first place. I was just trying to be nice. Then I changed my mind.

  4. #94
    Huh? Flower?! What the hell?! Administrator Psychotic's Avatar
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    So it is a zomby pony. I knew it!

  5. #95
    Don't get mad, get moist I Don't Need A Name's Avatar
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    Thank you Tavrobel!
    I made one myself for a change! Although you can probably tell that..

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    Actual cannibal Pheesh's Avatar
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    Oh jeez. I'm glad we won and all...but I think I actually felt my face being scolded through the computer screen by his response :/

  7. #97
    Huh? Flower?! What the hell?! Administrator Psychotic's Avatar
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    btw tavrobel he killed me 0 times

  8. #98
    Gold is the new black Goldenboko's Avatar
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    Good job to 501st for taking debate #1.

    Quote Originally Posted by Imperial Essense View Post
    Oh jeez. I'm glad we won and all...but I think I actually felt my face being scolded through the computer screen by his response :/
    Well, you know the saying about temperature tolerance and places of cooking!

  9. #99
    No votes for you! Recognized Member Election Booth's Avatar
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    Next up, 501st Legion Party's Round II argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavrobel
    Quote Originally Posted by Election Booth
    The Eyeson Frontsite has been worked maticulously by a hard-working dedicated staff of Cid's Technicians. With the coming of vB4, the possibilty of connecting the frontsite and the forums is more possible than ever. How much and how do you feel that they should be connected? Any specific ideas?
    Quote Originally Posted by 501st Party
    Instead of member-submitted reviews (which I, for one, will never read), actual playthroughs of Square games by members would be more interesting additions to the front site, especially if they're accompanied by screenshots. They'd be like walkthroughs, I guess, and even better than normal playthroughs would be challenges (you know, like low-level challenges).

    The blogging feature of VB4 could be used for this, too, and the really good blog entries could be linked from the front site. Regardless, the front site should/could recognize past and future threads like SeeDRankLou's Perfect Game of FFIX, for example, and Necronopticous' "Ah, the Power of Cheese" (website here) by linking to them or giving them their own pages. Very helpful they are!

    For real! No joke!

    Also, I happen to have a Loony BoB icon:
    How do you know what people will and won't be interested in? And why do you assume that just because you don't read reviews, that other people would not? Sometimes, even a short statement from a party is enough to seal a deal between what is played and is not.

    Though I see the value of having more user-generated content, why is it the assumption that there would be people with both the drive and the technology to complete and post their playthroughs in such an organized manner? Videos would suggest a YouTube account, which not everyone has (much less any other video streaming site). We already have enough trouble as it is getting people to write tables of information, and suddenly, you want them to advertise entire blocks of time dedicated to playing the game, with what could possibly be an incomplete and non-expert showcase of the game?

    The question asked for integration, but this feels like it only covers one aspect of frontsite-forum integration, which is based on watching someone play through a game. I tried that noise, and I didn't even get through video 9 of 54. You're going to have to come up with something a little more interesting than simply saying "let's play a game in a specific way for the amusement of others." What's your incentive for doing so?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie Party
    Darth Banana is correct that you will be able to have your own member blog when VBulliten4 comes out. but she has only barely skimmed the surface of what we can and should do. Here are a few examples of what we can do already with it, after all we can do so much more than feature simple playthroughs.

    Say for example a member comes up with a technique that makes a certain boss fight easier in Final Fantasy XIII. Cids Knights and Cids Technicians will have the ability to take any post and promote it to an article for the frontsite, so when a newbie comes asking for help this member created technique is available for them. This can encourage members to post their ideas on how to beat a tricky extra boss, explain the trick to get the Zodiac Spear from the Henne Mines, or even a nice april fools prank like how to really revive Aeris. Adding content to the frontsite will become easier than ever before!

    In addition, there can be things like thread of the week or picture of the week, where a single thread or work of art gets put up on the frontsite. It feels really nice when the random people from google who come to find the location of all the Stellazio coins and sees your picture of Mog dancing with Umaro in Narshe. With a chest bump. The possibilities VBulliten4 are endless, and the forums, frontsite, and even chat the the wiki will come together as one.

    Also I know html too.
    Clearly people are catching on to the idea that integration is a good thing, and that there needs to be a way to include what the standard user wants to see on the frontsite as being entirely possible. You've offered more possibilities, all of which seem viable.

    Here's the better question: where are you going to get all of that manpower? Half the people here don't do anything, the other half don't even like Final Fantasy anymore, and the remaining half does not have the steady hands or the technology to pull off a procedure like that. Yes, I'm aware that adds up to 150%, but I'm an engineer (a real engineer, mind you), so I'm allowed to do like that.

    This round goes to the Zombie Party for providing a more complete suggestion on what integration could possibly be with the new vB4. The looming question remains, of course, is even if those plans are implemented, how is it going to be done with what appears to be an unwilling fanbase?
    Last edited by Election Booth; 04-12-2010 at 06:07 PM. Reason: Whoops!

  10. #100
    Actual cannibal Pheesh's Avatar
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    b-b-but...they didn't rebut our argument :S

  11. #101
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    Interesting so far. I'm edged towards the 501st, mostly because of a repulsive image shown in the first debate by the Zombie party. How can you win votes with images like that? We've probably banned people for less.
    Bow before the mighty Javoo!

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imperial Essense View Post
    b-b-but...they didn't rebut our argument :S
    With political debates in your typical two-party democracies, the two parties can agree in principle, but differ in their opinion of what may be the best pratical solution to an issue.

    I'm not sure whether these debates were the kind that required each of the parties to argue in the affirmative and the negative.

    In any case, the Zombie party did a better job in Round 2, but I believe the 501sters are still firm favourites.

  13. #103
    GO! use leech seed! qwertysaur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imperial Essense View Post
    b-b-but...they didn't rebut our argument :S
    Yeah I did, it's called conceding a point and then strengthening it. As you can see it can be a powerful tool, when used in an appropriate situation.

  14. #104
    No votes for you! Recognized Member Election Booth's Avatar
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    And now, the final topic!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavrobel
    Quote Originally Posted by Election Booth
    Much has been made about EoFF's ability or inability to attract and keep new members. Some have placed blame on unfriendly, difficult transition into upper forums, and dead, lifeless lower forums. Do you find either of these to be accurate? What do you feel, if anything, should be changed for EoFF to attract new members?
    Quote Originally Posted by PusMoaning View Post
    Zombie Debate Entry:

    “Much has been made about EoFF's ability or inability to attract and keep new members.”
    Unquestionably, EoFF does have the ability to attract new members. This is illustrated by the fact that 16 new people posted introduction threads within the Wonder Square between March 1st and today. This is not counting those who have posted “Hey, I’m Back!” threads and others who have registered simply without making introduction threads.

    “Much has been made about EoFF's ability or inability to attract and keep new members.”
    Each and every forum around the world will encounter new members who don’t stick around. This is especially the case for a forum such as EoFF, that has been around for a great period of time. The heart of such a forum is composed of the most loyal members who have served their time here with distinction. Wondering into such an environment incontestably warrants a sense of not belonging to some people. But the important thing is (especially from an administrative perspective) that you'll never make everyone happy. All you can do is try your best; and in this case, it would seem wise to favor with the oldies and try to adapt to the new.

    “Some have placed blame on unfriendly, difficult transition into upper forums, and dead, lifeless lower forums. Do you find either of these to be accurate?”
    Difficult transition to upper forums? Nope. There is a boundless spew of thread topics to discuss in the upper echelon that only a profound retard couldn’t find something to relate to and discuss.

    Lifeless lower forums? Yes. If a new member comes here and means business, soon to find that the main forum sections of such business are considerably quieter, then of course that person may look elsewhere for the conversations in which they seek.

    “What do you feel, if anything, should be changed for EoFF to attract new members?”
    Nothing. The numbers are there as evidence that new people are swinging by on a consistent basis. Also, this forum is a unique home to so many people already so why change the equation? The eyes that lay witness on this debate tribute to the fact that we are a healthy community in need of no serious remedy or change.
    While you speak the truth, your first two points don't really offer any kind of solution to anything. Of course we know that people need to adapt and change, but how may this best be accomplished, if there may be a plan at all? Have you considered, that perhaps the leaders don't like change?

    You called people in the lower forums retards, and yet, for the longest time, people could comfortably stay in the lower forums without any interaction in the top forums. What if people don't have a vested interest with sharing personal views on topics? What if they do not find themselves comfortable with that particular type of social interaction, even if it is accomplished via internet? What if they have that already, and what they want is not here at all, but continue to contribute to the gamer community? May I remind you that EoFF is a fansite based on a series of videogames?

    Where is the numerical evidence that more people are registering than before? Last I checked, registrations have been going down.

    Overall, I feel like your argument could have been more fleshed out. While you've identified the causes very well, there's something to be desired on the effects, or rather, a way to affect the cause and effect cycle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jiro the Hutt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Point
    “Much has been made about EoFF's ability or inability to attract and keep new members.”
    Quote Originally Posted by PusMoaning View Post
    Unquestionably, EoFF does have the ability to attract new members. This is illustrated by the fact that 16 new people posted introduction threads within the Wonder Square between March 1st and today. This is not counting those who have posted “Hey, I’m Back!” threads and others who have registered simply without making introduction threads.
    Sixteen members in the space of five weeks is not very promising -- three per week? As for those who don't post a newbie thread, many of those are bots and the few legitimate members don't make any posts. EoFF is built around a franchise that is no longer as popular as it once was. There are fewer and less frequent instalments, and the market is flooded with non-Final Fantasy titles. Final Fantasy simply holds less appeal to the youth of today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Point
    “Much has been made about EoFF's ability or inability to attract and keep new members.”
    Quote Originally Posted by PusMoaning View Post
    Each and every forum around the world will encounter new members who don’t stick around. This is especially the case for a forum such as EoFF, that has been around for a great period of time. The heart of such a forum is composed of the most loyal members who have served their time here with distinction. Wondering into such an environment incontestably warrants a sense of not belonging to some people. But the important thing is (especially from an administrative perspective) that you'll never make everyone happy. All you can do is try your best; and in this case, it would seem wise to favor with the oldies and try to adapt to the new.
    Favouring already established members is like injecting EoFF with the genophage; sure it's for their own good, but how the hell does the forum survive? It doesn't, Wrex gets pissed and things get broken. We don't want that. However, favouring newbies drives away the members who have been an important part of the community for any period of time. Perhaps trying to strike a balance is a far more diplomatic approach, and much more likely to actually achieve anything. The best way for the established members to help retain new members is to stop being bigoted elitists. If you've nailed that, then try being welcoming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Point
    “Some have placed blame on unfriendly, difficult transition into upper forums, and dead, lifeless lower forums. Do you find either of these to be accurate?”
    Quote Originally Posted by PusMoaning View Post
    Difficult transition to upper forums? Nope. There is a boundless spew of thread topics to discuss in the upper echelon that only a profound retard couldn’t find something to relate to and discuss.
    Yes, let's insult people who might be actually too confronted by so many different topics that they stay away. I am proof enough of this; I spent my newbie days on EoFF in the lower forums until inactivity and real life drew me away completely. General Chat was too hectic, and that was the place where you knew everybody would see your posts. I, like many others, decided against posting in general chat. However many of these members do not stick around long enough to get the courage to post where they can be judged.

    Quote Originally Posted by PusMoaning View Post
    Lifeless lower forums? Yes. If a new member comes here and means business, soon to find that the main forum sections of such business are considerably quieter, then of course that person may look elsewhere for the conversations in which they seek.
    The lower forums are not active because those games are no longer in the spotlight. Topics have been discussed time and time again and obtaining some of those games in current days is actually more expensive than it was when first released. There was an unopened copy of Final Fantasy VII in a store I visited recently selling for $134.95. In addition, the outdated graphics are likely to turn off new players, which results in an overall deficet of members. Eyes on Plays events (and/or similar) are the only way(s) to bring life back into the lower forums, and even then it is only shortlived.

    Quote Originally Posted by Point
    “What do you feel, if anything, should be changed for EoFF to attract new members?”
    Quote Originally Posted by PusMoaning View Post
    Nothing. The numbers are there as evidence that new people are swinging by on a consistent basis. Also, this forum is a unique home to so many people already so why change the equation? The eyes that lay witness on this debate tribute to the fact that we are a healthy community in need of no serious remedy or change.
    The way to attract new members to EoFF would be to completely overhaul the site and make it about RPGs in general or something less specific. However you'd obviously understand why this isn't going to happen. EoFF doesn't need to change. Eyes on Final Fantasy is like Earth; it's populated by a diverse range of people. Final Fantasy is like the Lifestream -- it gives life to new people/members, and also to the Earth/Forum itself. The biggest changes need to happen to our Lifestream, not our Earth.
    omg I love the organization of this post. It's so point/counterpoint, which reminds me of the old SNL skits, where someone is always called an ignorant slut.

    How so? There's more games being produced in the Final Fantasy franchise than ever before. I really don't think that between the time of VII and VIII, there were as many games with the FF tag as between XII and XIII. And it's always been true that members will register and not make post. That doesn't mean that the franchise is the cause of disinterest; the correlation is non-causal, unless you can show otherwise.

    Compromise is always better. Always. No exceptions.

    ... I'm finding it harder and harder to disagree with your post.

    This round will also be going to the 501st. I think the Zombie Party would have been onto something, if they had rebutted a second time. However, I should also take into account, that the 501st had a full 24 hours to respond and prepare, rather than the 12 afforded in the other cases.

    Conditional victory.
    So, the 501st won more topics, but did Tavrobel actually declare them winner? Stay glued to those TV Sets to find out everyone!

  15. #105
    Gold is the new black Goldenboko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiro
    Favouring already established members is like injecting EoFF with the genophage; sure it's for their own good, but how the hell does the forum survive? It doesn't, Wrex gets pissed and things get broken.
    Best line of the entire debate imho.

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