On towns and NPCs (Spoilers Within)

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

One of my biggest gripes about people complaining this game is the lack of NPCs and "towns". While I understand that some people get their kicks out the NPCs and look for different things when enjoying games, it seems that people are too busy complaining about the lack of NPCs and "towns" to actually think about why it is so (besides being S-E is lazy/doesn't care about us/etc...).

In most FFs your band of heros are rather unnoticeable to the public or well received. Yuna et al are trying to defeat Sin, so why wouldn't the people of Spira love her? (FFX). AVALANCHE is not really that noticeable as in you can tell who is a member of AVALANCHE just by looking at them. Plus once outside of Midgar it doesn't really matter to the general public anymore that Barret, Cloud and Tifa were part of AVALANCHE (FFVII). The Light Warriors are trying to save the world. Really, are they gonna get hate from the people? (FFI). A princess in hiding is pretty inconspicuous especially travelling in neutral territory, even then it is not like she goes screaming who she is in enemy's territories either (FFXII).

I could think of more too, but my point is that for the most part the cast of protagonists are usually well received by the public (like Yuna), blend in with the rest of the crowd, or so far away from their hometown that it is irrelevant. Thus NPCs make sense. A large percent of NPCs are 2-3 line flat characters that are of no huge consequence in so far as plot goes. They usually hint to the next place to go, give random information on the back-story or just nonsensical. They, to some, also help with immersion.

Now, FFXIII's band of heros is far different from your usual protagonists in the series. They are loathes by the general populace. Unlike the PSOne era where world maps were there and you can travel far, far away from your hometown to places where no one knows who you are, the cast of FFXIII can't. For 12/13 chapters you are stuck on Cocoon. The people of Cocoon for centuries were told that Pulse l'Cie are evil, vile creatures that will destroy Cocoon. To say that Pulse l'Cie are loathed is the public is not an over-statement. For the most part, your whole party is ostracized from every single person in Cocoon. Cocoon is not small by any means. I'd wager it is about the size of a country with a similar population; it'd make Midgar look small. Also, due to the mark left by the fal'Cie it becomes pretty obvious that someone is a l'Cie. I mean you can hide it (like Lightening, Serah and Vanille can) but for the most part it keeps growing bigger to the point where it becomes noticeable (Like Sahz's and Hope's that were mostly hidden at first). So it becomes obvious fast who is a l'Cie.

So, with the exception of the few cases where there were some, how would more NPCs even make sense in Cocoon? Everyone hates you. Those that don't are either family or fal'Cie/fal'Cie pawns. Within the world of Cocoon it makes sense that there are not really many NPCs. Unless you've been blind the whole game, they make it clear that the general public shares very little love for you even if you are trying to save their asses.

As for Gran Pulse, it seems that they decided to kill off all the humans. I mean, it would have been interesting where there human life on Gran Pulse and see how they would take to the gang, but there wasn't.

So the lack of NPCs seems more symptomatic of something else: a focus on characterization. It really changes a group dynamic when they are truly the only people they have. That because they are all pariahs they only have themselves left. The lack of NPCs in Gran Pulse serves to underscore this with Vanille and Fang and plays a role in their relationship. Whether or not you like the characters is a different issue.

As for towns, there are towns. Just, once again, everyone hates you (or they are dead).

So yeah, while I get that people miss what they felt are staples of the series, I feel that they are too focused on complaining about their absence to actually think about it and what it means. Yes, there are little to few NPCs but the game tells you why (without 4th walling that is). It also seems to do with characterization too. That these people they are bound to by being l'Cie, with few exceptions, are all that they have.

[/rant]

No, this thread is not about the linearity of the game or whether or not you like the characters. It is about the lack of NPCs and what it means.

[kotora]

Don't defend the lack of an essential part of an RPG just because the game has "Final Fantasy" on the cover. It just sounds desperate.

[seiferalmasy2]

The developers have already stated why. It was too hard to do towns and minigames in HD. That is a factual statement they made.

Final Fantasy XIII producers: Traditional RPG towns are tough to do in HD

In a recent interview with Ultimania, they say that the limit isn't the HD technology, it's the amount of artisanship. "Considering the amount of work to make graphics that deserve HD, it is hard to make towns in the conventional style," said Toriyama. FFVII's graphics were beautiful at the time, but when you consider that we all played them on a 4:3 TV SD screen rather than the 1080p HD behemoths we're all playing games on today, you realize that it's a lot more work for artists to put in to make the game look as epic as Final Fantasy should. That's one reason why FFXIII doesn't have conventional RPG towns.

Kitase agrees, saying that "it is very hard to make games on PlayStation 3 in the same style the games in that era had. Making graphics will take enormous time." So score one for standard definition and the limits of the old pre-HD consoles. Note that neither producer says it's impossible, just a lot of work. So maybe some enterprising young developer will come along and make a solid, HD JRPG in the old-school fashion.

Please will we get away from defending this game by refusing to accept what the developers are telling us are the reasons. Graphics are now coming first to gameplay.

On NPC, saying that the plot is the reason is a MONUMENTAL cop out.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

Don't defend the lack of an essential part of an RPG just because the game has "Final Fantasy" on the cover. It just sounds desperate.

Wow, a resounding example of what I am talking about. Thank you.

FFXIII is not in my top 3 FF games and I have FF games that I haven't enjoyed. So yeah...wrong on that account.

Also, think you might of missed the part when the creators said they wanted to break the mold of the genre.

I am not saying you have to like, I am saying that within the game it makes sense. I'm trying to be reasonable and see it from a different perspective. I'm sorry if I am not blinded to one side or another.

EDIT: Conventional towns, not no towns at all. Difference.

It is not a cop-out. Give me a nice argument why it is a cop-out. Because you don't like it? Not a reason. Tell me how it doesn't make sense given the world of FFXIII?

[seiferalmasy2]

It seems you missed the part where they tell you plainly why the game is missing minigames and towns of the traditional fashion. They find it too hard to do in HD graphics and are not willing to downgrade graphics in order to do it. Any argument you make which doesn't accept that isn't accepting the truth.

[demondude]

I prefer HD graphics over a crappy card game and maybe some skipping rope.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

It seems you missed the part where you posted while I was posting my reply. Read my edit.

Also, the fact that it was too much work to make full scale conventional towns does not detract from my argument that lack of NPCs make sense (in game). Actually, it fits perfectly well together.

They're not making fully flushed out towns because it will take too much work (for a game they have been working on for years already), but if they are not gonna have fully flushed out towns, at least let's make it make sense in the game too, which they do.

[kotora]

It's just the devs being lazy because they could pull it off in about every other rpg on the current consoles.

[ANGRYWOLF]

the claims they are too hard/difficult for an organization like Square smacks of either laziness or incompetence..as was pointed out they've been working on it for years and should have a found a way to make it all work.
So they release what seems to me to be an incomplete game.

and yes I feel it deserves such criticism although I haven't played it yet.

[seiferalmasy2]

It is not a cop-out. Give me a nice argument why it is a cop-out. Because you don't like it? Not a reason. Tell me how it doesn't make sense given the world of FFXIII?

It is quite simple:

a. The devlopers are telling you they found it "too difficult" to place decent towns in the game. As in fully explorable with shops and the like so they dropped the idea. This is the reason we don't have towns. They have just told you. They are the designers. Please stop arguing with them.

b. The reason NPC suffered is a direct result of not having traditional towns. The fact NPC are in it should tell you something. Although they are fewer in number and non interactive. Again as a result of not having traditional towns again as a result of what the devlopers have stated as their reasons.

You are trying to suggest that there aren't NPC because the plot wouldn't allow for it. In VII you talked to palmer in Cid's house, you talked to Shin-Ra Soldiers even though you were part of Avalanche to name 2 examples.

NPC are not in the game because the developers did not use traditional RPG elements because they were more concerned with graphics. This is not an opinion.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

The point is not why, I know why. I've read the articles before. My point is that it works if you think about the setting, the plot. That it does serve a purpose and doesn't mean if it is a bad thing, even if you might not like it.

EDIT: There was no way for them to know you were in Avalanche, unless they have psychic powers or caught you in the act (which usually results in a battle). l'Cie have marks/brands that are quite obvious, especially in the case of Snow. Also, the brands grow becoming even more apparent. Something you'd know if you played the games.

Again, not why. Talking function. :/

[kotora]

Yeah, I could write the same story about any other FF game and it would still sound like it made sense.

[seiferalmasy2]

I am pretty sure in real life you wouldnt go talking to Shinra or Palmer.... the point is it i a game and the game allowed the NPC to often state their opinions or sometimes interact with you without needing to be ultra conservative on the plot.

In same way to suggest NPC in XIII couldn't be made to do the same is just bogus.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

You must've missed the scene where Hope tries to give a little girl her teddy bear and she sees that he's a l'Cie and everyone freaks on him and Snow and starts to attack them. Yes, because for them to stand still or just pace around muttering to themselves or to talk to you would make sense in such an environment.

The game makes it quite clear that no one outside fal'Cie, The Calvary and Hope's Dad is going to talk to you if they know you are l'Cie. The ones that do appear before you become l'Cie, don't know you are l'Cie or too worried about almost dying to care or notice.

Again, most of the time when you talked to Shinra soldies, they didn't know who are. If they knew you were a terrorist they'd fight you.

[seiferalmasy2]

again, you are missing the point. In all other FF games, you can talk to NPC and it isn't taken ultra serious, most of the time it is taken as just stating what the NPC is thinking and that adds to the world. To suggest it couldn't be done on the grounds of plot is bogus...what more can I say? It is just a bogus statement.