When you're playing the game do you ever wish that Squall didn't fall for Rinoa?

[Future Esthar]

Rinoa is Winhill Ellone.

You can contrast little Elle´s personality with that of the one in the ship to see they are very different.

In the present there are only two girls with black hair and blue dress:Ellone and Rinoa.

Taking the two phrases above we conclude the first one.

I think i proved it now.

[BG-57]

Your theories have an interesting black-box quality: I can see where you start and where you end up, but I can't for the life of me see how you get there.

[ChickenHeart]

And Rinoa IS Winhill Ellone.

Big Ellone is just a cyborg.

You've lost it dood?

Check out Future Esthar's old posts. This theory is explained in better detail, and you can kind of see where he got his ideas from -it makes sense as a theory even if you don't agree with it. (I'm still open minded).

His ideas are bogus, yet i don't think of him as a troll o.O.

Rinoa is Winhill Ellone.

You can contrast little Elle´s personality with that of the one in the ship to see they are very different.

In the present there are only two girls with black hair and blue dress:Ellone and Rinoa.

Taking the two phrases above we conclude the first one.

I think i proved it now.

Ellone's personaility has changed, yeah...so what? That happens in real life too, people can be hyperactive and then mature when they're older, just the way of life. Also she has some of her old traits, shes still a gentle person.

You serious? Because they have black hair and the 'same colour dress', they're the same?

P.S Ellone doesn't have a dress...it's like a shirty thing, she has a white long skirt ;P

[MJN SEIFER]

In one of FE's theories it is stated that in the space scene when Rinoa is being possesed by Ultimecia and starts going all "multi imaged" one of them looks more like Ellone than Rinoa, even having her acsessories.

However, this may be in the eye of the beheader. I can't remember if I noticed it before, but I can sort of see his point. This a chance that Ellone and Rinoa have similar graphic designs, and the fact that not all Rinoa's fetures are visable in the "images" may simply make one of them appear more Ellone like. It could have been Square's intention though. You never really know until they say.

[BG-57]

I hope you meant eye of the beholder. A beheader decapitates people while a beholder sees things.

And the burdern of proof lies with the claiment; it's not our job to prove the theory wrong but for him to prove it correct. And I don't find the evidence convincing so far.

That being said, I like FE: he seems a nice enough and sincere person. I just don't understand how he draws his conclusions.

[Future Esthar]

P.S Ellone doesn't have a dress...it's like a shirty thing, she has a white long skirt ;P

More help to my theory.

In that case there is only ONE person on the present similar to little Elle.

You serious? Because they have black hair and the 'same colour dress', they're the same?

Yes because they are the ONLY ones in the world.
So applying Occam´s Razor the simplest explanation is:
They are the same.

Ellone's personaility has changed, yeah...so what? That happens in real life too, people can be hyperactive and then mature when they're older, just the way of life. Also she has some of her old traits, shes still a gentle person.

Of course.
But Rinoa´s personality matches little Elle better.
Occam´s Razor dictates the answer.


Good to know you discuss instead of comment ChickenHeart.

[ChickenHeart]

More help to my theory.

In that case there is only ONE person on the present similar to little Elle.

...Who? :)

Yes because they are the ONLY ones in the world.
So applying Occam´s Razor the simplest explanation is:
They are the same.

I've had a look at them both. Rinoa has black hair with highlights. Ellone has brown hair. That's where it ends i think.

Of course.
But Rinoa´s personality matches little Elle better.
Occam´s Razor dictates the answer

To a point, i agree. When you first meet Rinoa, shes immature, smart and brave. But i think the reason she's this way is because of her hate for her father. Later on she begins to grow up a little bit, and by the disc 3 midway. Shes mature, smarter and willing to be frozen in order to keep the peace or something. Ok i'll give you this.
Disc 1-2 Rinoa is similar to past Ellone.
Disc 3-4 Rinoa is similar to present Ellone.
Still don't think they're the same though.

Good to know you discuss instead of comment ChickenHeart

I do what i can!

[Future Esthar]

Rinoa is never similar to present Ellone.

Still too far.

[ChickenHeart]

...What...What are we even discussing :(
P.S i mean simliar in personaility

[Future Esthar]

And about personality am I talking.

[WhiteStorm]

Rinoa is Winhill Ellone.

You can contrast little Elle´s personality with that of the one in the ship to see they are very different.

In the present there are only two girls with black hair and blue dress:Ellone and Rinoa.

Taking the two phrases above we conclude the first one.

I think i proved it now.

Ooookay, this is so wrong on so many levels...

I mean, Rinoa is NOT Ellone. They're two different characters who happen to have the same hair color. I mean, I can also get a crazy theory out of my ass and say that Seifer=Quistis=Zell just because they're blond or that Fujin=Ultimecia because they both have silver hair or worse yet, that Squall=Cid because they're both brunets.

And if you want to use clothes as references, I'm afraid that's a mayor fail too. In that case, Selphie=Raine because they're both wearing yellow. Oh! And they both have the same hair color, so that definitely proves that they're one and the same!!!!

And don't tell me that it's all plainly explained in that theory of yours, because frankly, it belongs to the fanfiction section... and it's not even a good fanfiction.

[MJN SEIFER]

Ooookay, this is so wrong on so many levels...

I mean, Rinoa is NOT Ellone. They're two different characters who happen to have the same hair color. I mean, I can also get a crazy theory out of my ass and say that Seifer=Quistis=Zell just because they're blond or that Fujin=Ultimecia because they both have silver hair or worse yet, that Squall=Cid because they're both brunets..

And if you want to use clothes as references, I'm afraid that's a mayor fail too. In that case, Selphie=Raine because they're both wearing yellow. Oh! And they both have the same hair color, so that definitely proves that they're one and the same!!!!

He's not saying that. He's saying that based on what he took to be hints that Ellone and Rinoa could be the same person, this is another theory I don't follow 100%, but I can see how he arrived at it. It's not just because of her hair, but her general design, and the fact that one of the Rinoa clones really does look like Ellone (at least I think it does), further more there are many other potential hints to them being either the same, or at least versions of one another, for example their names have the exact same root, and the two of them act similar. I'm not saying that Rinoa IS Ellone, but I can see how FE interpetted these things to be hints, his theory actually makes a lot of sense if you read it through. It's certainly better than R=U in anycase which just seems to be pulled out of thin air. (The only thing that seemed to based on was the fact that in the ending Rinoa and Ultimecia were shown a split second appart from eachother - using that logic you could also say that Squall and Zell are the same person, because the same thing happened with them - that scene is just Squall's memories corrupted.)

And don't tell me that it's all plainly explained in that theory of yours, because frankly, it belongs to the fanfiction section... and it's not even a good fanfiction

No. Fanfiction is when someone makes a story based on an originally existing franchise. FE's theory is based on how he saw the game, and I will admit some of it actually helped me understand the game better. It's like how I intially thought based on "hints" that Ultimecia also appeared in Final Fantasy VII, but I found official sources that disprooved that. So I don't state it as "fact" anymore, and I realize that those "hints" were'nt "hints" after all, just how I viewed them, and even today they still make a whole lot of sense to me, even though I know they're wrong. They are not fanfiction because I genuinly thought that they were what Square was trying to say.

[WhiteStorm]

Ooookay, this is so wrong on so many levels...

I mean, Rinoa is NOT Ellone. They're two different characters who happen to have the same hair color. I mean, I can also get a crazy theory out of my ass and say that Seifer=Quistis=Zell just because they're blond or that Fujin=Ultimecia because they both have silver hair or worse yet, that Squall=Cid because they're both brunets..

And if you want to use clothes as references, I'm afraid that's a mayor fail too. In that case, Selphie=Raine because they're both wearing yellow. Oh! And they both have the same hair color, so that definitely proves that they're one and the same!!!!

He's not saying that. He's saying that based on what he took to be hints that Ellone and Rinoa could be the same person, this is another theory I don't follow 100%, but I can see how he arrived at it. It's not just because of her hair, but her general design, and the fact that one of the Rinoa clones really does look like Ellone (at least I think it does), further more there are many other potential hints to them being either the same, or at least versions of one another, for example their names have the exact same root, and the two of them act similar. I'm not saying that Rinoa IS Ellone, but I can see how FE interpetted these things to be hints, his theory actually makes a lot of sense if you read it through. It's certainly better than R=U in anycase which just seems to be pulled out of thin air. (The only thing that seemed to based on was the fact that in the ending Rinoa and Ultimecia were shown a split second appart from eachother - using that logic you could also say that Squall and Zell are the same person, because the same thing happened with them - that scene is just Squall's memories corrupted.)

Okay, first things first: he's saying EXACTLY that or are u FE so that you can acertain he's not? Can you read his mind and be sure he's not implying just that?
Second: those "hints" you're talking about don't exist. Period. They are two different characters. The fact that they have similar features, or walk the same or whatever you can come up with, is because some sprites or models are used in different characters in order to save time and money. Programming a game costs, you know?

You say that you can see how he came down to it, but, even though, all his assessments are correct, that doesn't mean they are TRUE.

And what Rinoa clones are u talking about???????????????? And if you could please enlighten me as to what root they names come from, I'd be in eternal debt, because I had no clue that could be even possible.

I'm not a defender of the R=U theory, but I have to admit even that is waaaaay better than FE's so called theories. At least they have more plausible bases than just hair color and clothes *rolls eyes*

And don't tell me that it's all plainly explained in that theory of yours, because frankly, it belongs to the fanfiction section... and it's not even a good fanfiction

No. Fanfiction is when someone makes a story based on an originally existing franchise.

That's what he's doing. Or tell me where the hell did he come up with all the names from the rulers of Centra? (I happened to notice he wrote something like that in another post and had to leave halfway through his explanation before my eyes bled). That's not CANON, therefore, it's FICTION made by a FAN = FANFICTION.

FE's theory is based on how he saw the game, and I will admit some of it actually helped me understand the game better. It's like how I intially thought based on "hints" that Ultimecia also appeared in Final Fantasy VII, but I found official sources that disprooved that. So I don't state it as "fact" anymore, and I realize that those "hints" were'nt "hints" after all, just how I viewed them, and even today they still make a whole lot of sense to me, even though I know they're wrong. They are not fanfiction because I genuinly thought that they were what Square was trying to say.

I don't see how you thought Ultimecia was present in FFVII. Really.
And I really can't see how FE's theories helped you to understand this game better. Seriously. If you want to know Ultimecia better, if you want to have a better view of her character read what Sir Bahamut has to say. He actually has some FACTS to back his theory up.

FACTS: that's the difference between a plausible, believable theory and something that just came up out of nowhere for the kick of it.

[Heath]

I hope I wasn't the only one who was dying to see Rinoa get together with Odine.

I never really felt myself hoping that Squall and Rinoa wouldn't get together. Although perhaps it was a bit of a cliche for the cold, stoic armour of Squall to be removed in the name of love for Rinoa, I felt it just worked well. The two characters worked well together and had a good chemistry. It didn't seem unbelievable for Squall to fall for her and for him to develop a big emotional attachment as I think Squall - although he wouldn't admit so outwardly - craved that kind of affection and that kind of relationship with a woman. Certainly when I think to other video game relationships of the period, I struggle to think of one that was done better than Squall and Rinoa.

[MJN SEIFER]

Okay, first things first: he's saying EXACTLY that or are u FE so that you can acertain he's not? Can you read his mind and be sure he's not implying just that?
Second: those "hints" you're talking about don't exist. Period. They are two different characters. The fact that they have similar features, or walk the same or whatever you can come up with, is because some sprites or models are used in different characters in order to save time and money. Programming a game costs, you know?

No, I'm not FE - I'm just his fan. And I never said that he wasn't saying what he said - just that it wasn't the thing he was basing his whole theory on. However, it could easily just be just Square reusing sprites, I don't doubt that, I'm sure it's done all the time. I am simply basing what I say on what I have read in FE's other threads.
Second: The fact I deliberatly put quotes around the word "hints" is my way of saying that they probably aren't hints, just what someone has taken to be a hint - in this case FE, he saw/thought he saw Ellone appear during that scene on the spaceship (when it's meant to be Rinoa) and it either helped him with a theory he already had, or inspired him to start one - I don't know the exact order he "discovered" everything.

You say that you can see how he came down to it, but, even though, all his assessments are correct, that doesn't mean they are TRUE.

Never said they were. It's just that I like them, and that I see how he arrived at them. The debate was whether FE just pulls these theories out of thin air, or if he actually makes them like proper theories. All of my theories, including the ones I now know to be false, are all based on what I deem to be evidance, until I know it is not evidance at all. The same goes with FE, whether he is right or wrong he doesn't just wake up one morning and go "Oh, I'll just go on EoFF and type a load of stuff about Rinoa and Ellone being the same person, and then I'll throw in that all the locations are on different times, and the color check confirms this!" - he actually draws these conclusion by studying the game, and what it *might* be hinting. The same way I did with mine, I didn't just decide "what if Ultimecia" was on FFVII, I actually thought Square was implying she was.

And what Rinoa clones are u talking about???????????????? And if you could please enlighten me as to what root they names come from, I'd be in eternal debt, because I had no clue that could be even possible.

Couldn't think what else to call them - they're not even clones, they're after-images (and even then it's wrong of me to call them clones, as clones are the things that act like you, not look like you so forgive my mistake) What I actually mean is when Rinoa is on the spaceship and wandering around like she's being controlled (which she is) there are two or three "ghostly" Rinoas following her. Sometimes, one of them appears to take the shape of Ellone rather than Rinoa, I noticed this before I read FE's theory, but thought I was imagining it, and then I saw the theory and thought "hmmm...It's a possibility", but I don't flat out say it's right, and like you said it could easily be that Rinoa and Ellone had the same sprite to begin with, and since Square wouldn't be using the "full" design of Rinoa to create to "ghost" effect, on the other hand it could just be Rinoa all the way through, and me and FE got confused because they look similar.

I'm not a defender of the R=U theory, but I have to admit even that is waaaaay better than FE's so called theories. At least they have more plausible bases than just hair color and clothes *rolls eyes*

Each to their own. In my opinion R=U is less plausible than FE's theories because it doesn't EVEN have a basis on hair and clothes (Rinoa and Ultimecia neither dress similar, act similar, nor look the same) even though FE based E=R on more than just their looks, whoever came up R=U based it on the fact that they are after each other in the ending - that's it! There's nothing to imply that they are the same, they don't even act the same or look the same. Rinoa doesn't even have the same accent as Ultimecia! I will admit that the S=G theory (which you haven't mentioned) is more plausible, but to fully believe that I have to believe the R=U for it to work, so I just add it to the "cool but fake" list, I do have theories on that matter to, but I don't think he *is* Squall, but I do think he's "part" of Squall, indeed if you scan him it says "In Squall's mind..." I think he's the personification of Squall's depression and general "I'm alone" emotion - this is supported by the fact that in the ending Squall returns to the place where he is fought - once again, I could be completly wrong.

That's what he's doing. Or tell me where the hell did he come up with all the names from the rulers of Centra? (I happened to notice he wrote something like that in another post and had to leave halfway through his explanation before my eyes bled). That's not CANON, therefore, it's FICTION made by a FAN = FANFICTION.

Do you mean names like "Hyne" and "Vascaroon"? Those names are used in the game. I can sort of see how you arrive at "fanfiction", but I need to check if those are the names you meant, because if they are it's not fanfiction it's a theory.

I don't see how you thought Ultimecia was present in FFVII. Really.

I don't think she's in FFVII now...

On FFVII we have a character who can corrupt people with no definition of how she got there, she is believed to be Cetra/Ancient, but then the game states she is not. How did she get there? We know a weaker meteor fell from the sky, but was she on the meteor or already on "The Planet"? We don't know. I arrived on the conclusion that Ancients/Cetra/Sorcery were all linked. I also thought that Sephiroth - a character on FFVII was actually controlled by this character, I was later proved wrong by Square - Sephiroth controlled her, pretty much dampenning my theory there and then, but while my theory was still potentially correct it made me think... hmmm... Ultimecia can control people of her kind too...

Ultimecia wants to use Ellone to send her concious to the past so she can achieve Time Compression, her goal is explained. What does she intend to do with Time Compression? At the time I assumed that she needed to bring every event closer together to her time line for everything to work propperly - it has been a while since I fully thought about this now defunct theory, and to be honest it makes even less sense to me now.

The Final Battle with Ultimecia is not human, but still has a human outline, but still doesn't look human - her head is a hole with a flashing light - if you were to cut of the head, things start to look weirdly familliar...

Also check out the music; It starts with the main "Fithos" chorus which has been following you around the game everytime sorceresses are involved in the storyline, then it appears to play the music used in Balamb and is somewhat calm as Ultimecia explains that she is now able to conpress time, and we get our first attacks in. By arround 01:08 we can already tell the music is starting to "prepare itself" to reach a more "battle like" sound and at 01:39 01:54 we plainly hear the traditional Final Fantasy Battle Music last used in FFVI (it came back for FF IX) and from 01:55 onwards it sounded like a remix of something to me... It sounded like a remix of Jenova's Music! There's a bit of the Highwind Music in there as well (actually it's the FFVIII track "Premonition" which sounds like the Highwind Music).

I thought to myself; Looks like Jenova + Has Jenova's Music = OH. MY. GOD.

Of course I realize now I was way off the mark, but that's what I thought at the time. (NOTE: The song's called "The Extreme" if you want to listen to it.)

And I really can't see how FE's theories helped you to understand this game better. Seriously. If you want to know Ultimecia better, if you want to have a better view of her character read what Sir Bahamut has to say. He actually has some FACTS to back his theory up.

I understood most of the game already, I just meant that FE inspired me to look at things differently, and I began to wonder about Ultimecia, and a lot of what FE has put on her makes a lot of sense to me, but I will have a look at Sir Bahamut's stuff, I am open to all theories at least once.

FACTS: that's the difference between a plausible, believable theory and something that just came up out of nowhere for the kick of it.

Well hopefully by now I've mangaged to show you that FE didn't come up with it from nowhere, he looked at things in the game and saw it that way, some of it I half saw myself. His theories may not be correct in the long run, but for the most part they make sense if you look at them from the right angle, same with the one I just mentioned - I didn't make it up as I went along, I genuinly thought that was what the game was saying, even though now, I know it wasn't.