Delita

[VeloZer0]

Alright, inspired by the two pages of discussion in the "Ramza" thread I decided to create a new one so we could remain on topic.
So here is the thread for discussing a character who amazingly is viewed as a both as a hero, villain, and everything else between.

Executive summary of my position
I believe Delita is just as much a hero of the game as Ramza is, I feel that his actions saved Ivalice just as much as Ramza's did.
Even at the pinnacle of his ascension to power he still goes out of his way to ensure the life of 'good' people who oppose him. (Olan)
The final scene at the church is meant to mark him as a tragic hero, showing he has lost everything in his quest to save Ivalice, much as Ramza has.

Let it begin.

[EDIT: Apparently 'position' followed immediately after by a ':' gets censored out for some reason]

[ANGRYWOLF]

saving their country or their people...
The Turks in the early 1900's feel they did what was necessary.was it ? The Armenians disagree.

Hitler thought he was saving Germany.

Milosevich thought he was saving Serbia and so on and so forth.

I think he ended up as a tyrant.

Sure he kept the peace but at the point of his sword.

[VeloZer0]

I was gauging his overall historical impact by the fact that Alahzam Durai doesn't have a whole lot of disparaging words to say about him. Were he a tyrant he probably wouldn't have been introduced as the hero of the Lion War, without any qualification. Though h says Ramza is the real hero, nothing negative was said about Delita.
Delita is considered a hero by popular opinion. I am the first to admit that just because some historical figure is considered a hero doesn't mean they actually were, but the probability is significantly lower that this would happen to a tyrant.

Were he a true tyrant, why would he have spared someone like Olan? Olan was arguably one of the most dangerous people to his position, being one of the few who knew the truth. And he also expressed a desire to see the truth about Delita exposed. There is no way anyone who is willing to kill to achieve their objectives would let such a person live. Even a benevolent king of that era would probably feel justified in his death, much less a tyrant.

In real history people in such positions are typically flawed and corrupt, almost to a rule. And in real life people like Ramza also don't typically exist. No one questions that a character like Ramza can be held to an unrealistic standard for an actual historical figure, why should Delita be any different?

[Vivisteiner]

I think he is in some ways both a hero and a villain. I feel, having seen such terrible corruption, he did genuinely want a better a world and he believed he had the ability to make it so. His actions overall were a force for good, but as a person he nevertheless committed terrible acts for this greater good.

However, his character does take on a more sinister tone upon further examination. To my memory, he portrays very little compassion for those he murders. In the game he seems arrogant and overly deluded with his own self-importance. No doubt he was a brilliant man who was a force for the greater good, but the question remains:

What were his motives? Did he do what he did for himself, for revenge or for the genuine greater good?

It is my belief that his motives comprised of all three aspects. He wanted to be a great King, a ruler. He grew up poor and lower class and he envied the powerful. He wanted to taste this power for himself. He also despised those who had taken away the life of his sister and this uprising would be his revenge for all the atrocities committed against him. And finally, he did believe society was corrupt. Society needed to be shaken up and revolutionised and he believed that he was the man to do just that.


(SPOILER)I haven't played the game in a while though, so my analysis may not be completely accurate.

It is mentioned how he goes out of his way to help 'good' people. I must confess I don't really remember Olan. That would certainly make his character better - but didn't he originally intend to kill Count Orlandeau? Even though he was a good guy.


It is possible though that my interpretation of arrogance was merely the cool head of someone just trying to get the job done and so perhaps my comments are unfair.

But I'm not sure why he didn't trumpet Ramza as a hero ever. Surely Ramza deserved it?

[VeloZer0]

Ramza was a heretic, I don't think he could have said anything positive about him without destabilizing his rule. Even though upper echelons of the church had been decimated, religion is still a powerful force in Ivalice after the events of FFT. Maybe the reason he let Olan live was so that he would write the Durai Report and have Ramza's name eventually cleared? (Obviously pure speculation).

If I recall Delita was under orders from the church to kill Orlandu. I don't know if we can count him sparing Orlandu as a selfless act, as he may have decided Ramza was much stronger with T.G.Cid along for the ride. And having Ramza succeed in defeating the Lucavi is obviously beneficial to his plans. I like to think he also respected Orlandu, but I don't think it is a point that can be argued.

It is possible though that my interpretation of arrogance was merely the cool head of someone just trying to get the job done and so perhaps my comments are unfair.

I always saw the latter, but that is likely me identifying with the character. Whenever I have to make difficult decisions I do so with a cool head and unemotional, causing many to think I am nonsensitive and uncaring. It is completely reasonable to see it the other way though.

With SNES/PSX era games there are so many little blanks to be filled in a lot of the time the impressions we get are more reflections of ourselves than the actual characters.

To my memory, he portrays very little compassion for those he murders.

Meh, most of them had it coming

EDIT: I am guessing by the fact I have every second post in this thread you can tell Delita is a character I care a lot about

[ANGRYWOLF]

and that's fine.

He did kill that girl who was spying for his..I can't recall her name.Was that necessary ?

He did kill ovelia. True, she did try to kill him but he could have avoided killing her and found a way to exile her.
I think he could have.

We don't know who/what comes after Delita.
I think war again most likely.There won't be a clear heir to the throne.Most likely a bunch of children Delita sired with concubines.
They'll fight over the succession and the country will be back where it was before.

[Vivisteiner]

Actually, now that I think about it, I do remember having a favourable view of Delita at the end of the game, overall. So I guess I would see him as a hero. I need to replay the game!

Ramza was a heretic, I don't think he could have said anything positive about him without destabilizing his rule. Even though upper echelons of the church had been decimated, religion is still a powerful force in Ivalice after the events of FFT. Maybe the reason he let Olan live was so that he would write the Durai Report and have Ramza's name eventually cleared? (Obviously pure speculation).

Yeah, that would make sense. Although personally my idealistic tendencies would have taken the risk, probably, and tried to clear his name anyway.

I always saw the latter, but that is likely me identifying with the character. Whenever I have to make difficult decisions I do so with a cool head and unemotional, causing many to think I am nonsensitive and uncaring. It is completely reasonable to see it the other way though.

With SNES/PSX era games there are so many little blanks to be filled in a lot of the time the impressions we get are more reflections of ourselves than the actual characters.

I only played the PSP version, and I absolutely love the cutscenes in the game.

Delita's character is so fascinating in them: and the unemotional part comes across in those cutscenes. I also felt the arrogance:

YouTube - Final Fantasy Tactics (PSP) Delita's Will


Ultimately I feel he did want to make the world a better place, but he was prepared to commit any ruthless acts to achieve that. He's also far from a reluctant King - I'm pretty sure he craved power, probably because he felt he could do a much better job of it. And he also wanted revenge - big time.


On the Ovelia topic, I'm not really sure what he thought deep down. Ultimately he may well have loved her, even though he did use her as well - which makes Ovelia's attack on him seem unfair.



EDIT: Man, if you haven't seen the PSP cutscenes before they're absolutely phenomenal. I'm rewatching some of them now:

YouTube - Final Fantasy Tactics (PSP) Blades of Grass
YouTube - Final Fantasy Tactics (PSP) Delita's Warning
YouTube - Final Fantasy Tactics (PSP) Delita's Warning
YouTube - Final Fantasy Tactics (PSP) The Godless Thief
YouTube - Final Fantasy Tactics (PSP) Reunion with Delita
YouTube - Final Fantasy Tactics (PSP) Reunion with Delita
YouTube - Final Fantasy Tactics (PSP) Ovelia and Delita

[VeloZer0]

He did kill that girl who was spying for his..I can't recall her name.Was that necessary ?

Are you talking about Balmafula? Because Delita let her live as well as Olan, you see her beside him at Alma's funeral.

We don't know who/what comes after Delita.
I think war again most likely.There won't be a clear heir to the throne.Most likely a bunch of children Delita sired with concubines.
They'll fight over the succession and the country will be back where it was before.

Imo he wouldn't have been considered the hero who ended the Lion War if he didn't institute some period of stability following it. How long this stability lasted we have know way of knowing. It is equally reasonable to suppose he established a lasting dynasty.

I need to replay the game!

Always a good outcome to any discussion!

[Skyblade]

The victor writes the history books. Just because Delita likely executed any historians who would dare to write anything that besmirched his name doesn't mean that the atrocities weren't there.

From what we see of him firsthand, the guy is a narcissitic sociopath.

[ANGRYWOLF]

there's more to it than that though...
I recall having a hard time understanding the class underpinnings of the world at that time.The aristocracy looking down so hard on commoners and the commoners..people like Wiegraf hating them right back.

Only thing we have remotely like it is was the hate southerners had for blacks here in the US.....the hate the nazis had for jews and gypsies...the hate the serbs had for the bosnian muslims...probably others I don't remember offhand.

shrugs.

Balma probably ended up having Delita's children.

Russian history books don't exactly criticize Stalin for his purges where millions were killed or the murders Lenin ordered of innocents.

The victors and their supporters tend to write the history books.

As there wasn't a sequel to Tactics we don't know what happened after Delita...

[Vivisteiner]

^Division between nobles and commoners was very common in Britain at certain points and probably throughout Europe. So I found that FFT dealt with the issue very realistically.

I think Matsuno was very inspired by Europe. The writing style used in translation of the PSP version is very Shakespearean and the domination of the Catholic Church is very reminiscent of times of old. Who can forget the terrible sins they commited? (and still commit to this day unfortunately)

I don't think it's fair to compare Delita to Stalin. Delita only murdered a few people, for specific reasons, for what could have been seen as the greater good. Stalin purges killed millions of lives for no reason at all. But yeah, the victors do write the history books.

The victor writes the history books. Just because Delita likely executed any historians who would dare to write anything that besmirched his name doesn't mean that the atrocities weren't there.

What specific events would you describe as atrocities? My memory is a lil rusty.

[BG-57]

One could argue that Delita is fighting for the greater good, but generally he makes choices that benefit himself in addition. So that always makes his motives suspect to me. Ramza is much more admirable because he choses to do the right thing even when it inconveniences him greatly.

That being said, Delita falls further from grace than any other character until he becomes the epitome of the man that gains the world but loses his soul. Characters like Algus or Dycedarg were never all that good to begin with, so their turns toward darkness are not that much of a fall.

I started out feeling very sorry for Delita but as the game progressed I liked him less. Ultimately I pitied him.

[Gilthanes]

Ultimately its very likely that although Delita let Olan live, nothing says that he wasn't responsible for the Durai Papers being sealed away for such a long time before his descendent, Alazlam, recovered them and showed them to the world. It would have been in Delitas best interest for his immediate future to make sure that Olans story did not make it to the public, less his followers desert him over how he achieved his power.

Either way I believe the ends justifies the means, Delita may have been underhanded to reach his goals, but it's not like he went around killing innocents. The leaders and various people he assassinated were far from good people, with the exception of ovelia, which he may have done simply for his own survival (if she tried to kill him once, who says she wouldnt try again).

bottom line- Hero

[VeloZer0]

I've always been of the mind that releasing the Durai Report when it was written would have had no benefit to anyone. It wouldn't have changed anything in Ivalice for the better, if anything it only would have provoked another wave of violence as the church brutally suppressed it. If I was making the choice keeping it hidden until the world was ready would be the way I would go.

(We have no way of knowing any of Delita's involvement in the suppression of the report)

[Nevermore]

Aye, the truth revealed from the Germonique Scriptures would not have changed Ramza's chosen path even if he never had read them, just as the Durai Papers will change nothing in the end. (Unless they make FFT 2, do it, blast thee. Sick of all this Advance .)

As charismatic with the peeps in his entourage as he may be, and as cognizant as Delita was of his surroundings and what goes on within, my guess is that he was merely a product of his times. He just did it better than everyone else, but it all started with the death of his sister and how from then on, coupled with questioning his own place in the world and that world's current society, he weaved ideas and plans to rectify that which would henceforth compliment his own pains and impotence, no matter how indirectly.
As would be inevitable, the more successful he got, the more he lost sight of things, or so one would percieve, if it weren't for the whole Olan business. (Also, I'm sure he truly loved Ovelia at one point.) Despite such, I'm pretty sure he was swept up in the same unseen current just as much as everyone else was.

In fact, Delita reminds me of Dycedarg greatly, what with all this crap about a better future and the methods used to secure it. In fact, Delita's means seemed even more outrageous and psychotic than Dycedarg's.
Mind you, Dycedarg started being pretty damn disappointing in the end, which might in itself compliment the fact that the true hero was Ramza, and people like his lord brother or Delita illustrate this so much, if only because, as was said, someone like Ramza doesn't actually exist in real life, which allows for people like Dyce or Delita to be suggestively debated when it comes to ''good and evil'', for how intricate their characters were. (Even when Dyce cheeses out by becoming Lucavi with a Zodiac stone. Delita wouldna done that, and I'm pretty sure he could have, had he desired as such.)

They succeed because Ramza is just so damn boring.