Did you like FINAL FANTASY XII?

[Crossblades]

I use Swap Magic to play a US version of XII on my PAL PS2. Is there an English version of International Zodiac or is it Japanese only?

Unfornately, it's japanese only. However, playing through the international version shouldn't be a problem if you've already beaten the original. Plus, I made a FAQ thread about it a long time ago showing the 12 license boards, location of some teckniqs and magicks(some are no longer bought in the international version), etc. Let me see if I can find it.

EDIT - Found it!

http://forums.eyesonff.com/final-fan...ther-info.html

[Bolivar]

It's not one of my favorite FF's.

But that's okay, because it's easily one of the best games I've played over the last few years, up there w/ Metal Gear Solid 3/4, Uncharted 2, etc. It's a powerhouse that puts most "next-gen" games to shame with just how damn good it is.

While I agree with most of reinward's criticisms, as I have in previous threads, I simply can't with the combat. Even though you make your gambits, sit back and watch it go, there's incredibly deep strategy there. Gilgamesh shows that better than anything. Playing him the first time can be heartbreaking. Playing him when you're a master of the Gambit system is a piece of cake, and it shows just how damn deep this game is.

I mean there's not really a lot to say, FFXII is just a game I can sit back and play literally all day long and love it, chaining monsters, going for a secret Esper, completing Marks, getting my characters customized.

Only real complaint I can say that was bad is learning Technicks on the License Board. They're all bunched up in the corner so you have to make a "Technick"-job character, whereas some abilities are good for my mages, others for my knights/thieves.

[ReloadPsi]

The story bored me to death but the game itself is actually very fun with plenty of things to do. I wish I still had a PS2 so I could see if I can not get bored of the story and finally beat it; I got to the final dungeon and didn't even know it. Serves me right for succumbing to the game's attempts to make me not care.

[ANGRYWOLF]

the problems were Zodiark, Omega Mark whatever it was and Yiazamat.

shrugs.

The game left a lot to be desired as a game.Sad that Square seems to have overcompensated to excess with FFXIII.

[Clo]

Did anyone else hate the summons?

Because I hated them.

[G13]

It wasn't too great in my opinion. I mean, I liked it as a game but it didn't feel worthy of the FF title to me.

[Ezme]

I have a politics degree and even I thought there was too much in the plot. I much prefer a "the whole world will be destroyed" type plot.

The pacing is terrible.

As others have said there is just so much wasted potential with this game. I adore Baltheir and Fran and think they are well thought out even if not all of it made it into the game. Ashe... she annoys me so much but she could have been fantastic, she could have been the definitive strong female protagonist but as with a lot of this game there's a distinct feeling of "that'll do." Bashe was almost there, vaan.... well he was pretty average orphan story. Someone said to me once, "he's just a bit too "my parents died in a giant cliche"" lol

The battle system for me... well it just doesn't stick out, I don't hate it, I don't love it either.

The are faaarrrrrr too many dungeons, it's just a relentless grind of "go here get x, go here get y..."

I did love the marks though even if I didn't get to the hard ones. I love the missions in XIII now too

I still think XII is a good game, there are just too many half arsed bits to make it a great game.

But I'd like fran and balthier to get a spin off

[seiferalmasy2]

No I loathed it. I don't think anything disappointed me more apart from X-2 and XIII.

XII was the first MAIN FF that I actually didn't want to finish. It was a chore to grind my way through the same tired old dungeons and absolutely no decent plot to be found. The amount of people who mistook the absent story as "deep" is frightening.

Let me sum up my thoughts:

- No decent story

- Character development non-existent, most characters joined the cause "because" and had absolutely no back story or motivation for being there. The total amount of dialogue in this game must be far less than any other FF game after V.

- Graphics very good but boring

- Gambit system is a dumbed down battle system which takes control away from the player. I survived the whole game with 2 gambits. Attack and Cure.

- Summons were pathetic and useless and if I remember right, take all your MP to 0 rendering them a liability. Half the time you ran away hoping they would do 1 move before being finished off.

- License system allowed no real differences between players and it was impossible to know without a guide which were actually the strongest before you acquired them and trudged half way across the board.

- Limit break moves were tedious, lasted too long and rather pathetic.

- Sidequests were relegated once again to more battles, this time, clan battles. Mini Games didn't exist as far as I can remember. Certainly there was nothing to do compared to Blitzball, cards etc.

- The sound for voices has been compressed so much it sounds like MSN recording.

- Unlike FF6-10 which gave you a good chance of figuring out the best weapons and so forth without a guide, FFXII makes sure you have no chance. laughably, even opening the "wrong treasure chest" will result in ultimate weapons becoming unavailable. That should tell you right there how much the designers were taking the piss out of fan-base gullibility.

- Treasure chests were random, rendering them almost useless. I really can't fathom why ANYONE had this brainless idea.

- Again you needed a guide to get the best stuff and know what to mix and you had no chance of knowing without one. Also, it was another massive grind.

The whole game was a disaster, and the fact it got such high reviews is baffling.

[Karifean]

A perfect summary of how I feel about this game.

[seiferalmasy2]

Yeah I will also add to that about the plot. When I debated this game with others I too was abused and called names, but I quickly learned that it is because they had no argument.

Whenever I see the word "deep" I immediately think "Is this word thrown in there to try and make that be a fact" and more often than not, "Deep" is used when

- It really isn't deep

- Contrived mess is mistaken for deep.

- Person wants it to be deep

- Person buys into pseudo nonsense, in this case, FFXII is pseudo political garbage. This game is NOT political. It is just trying to be. I can't remember anything decent about it to be frank, there is nothing about this game's story that sticks with you political or otherwise and makes you THINK for a second.

I have asked a number of people who loved the story, about the plot. I generally never receive a reply. If I do it is one of 2 responses:

- It is so deeeeeep, there is a political force taking over and they must stop it. Politics = deeeeep

- You must join the dots up, use your imagination.

The second one is the one I laugh at most, because it's a sad excuse. If a story needs you to "join up the dots" then it hasn't done its job properly and it is a concession on the part of the defender that there is some major holes or gaps in the plot.

So yeah, the story was crap, so was the character development.

The music was ok, I liked a few of them but overall it was as generic as the game. I am seriously strong in my belief that had this game not been Final Fantasy and if it had standard graphics, it would have come out with 5 or 6 out of 10 in the vast majority of reviews, and the massive amount of defence it gets would evaporate.

There are too many games that get away with their crapness on the back of fanbase or graphics.

That will do

[Shin Gouken]

- No decent story

Story is a matter of taste and preference. If you didn't enjoy it, fair play, but pleanty of people do. If you want "Got to run save the world from giant monster" go play FFX, this game has a more realistic tone (for the most part)

- Character development non-existent, most characters joined the cause "because" and had absolutely no back story or motivation for being there. The total amount of dialogue in this game must be far less than any other FF game after V.

Vaan has a score to settle because his brother was killed by the empire, Penelo's parents were also killed by the empire though she's mostly there to watch over vaan, Ashe is trying to reclaim her kingdom (pretty obvious that one), Basch swore to protect ashe and Balthier believes he must right his fathers wrongs. Leaving just Fran without a reason for being there so that statement is somewhat flawed i'm afraid.

As for character develpment being non existent, it's certainly not as heavy as in previous FF's but but i myself find it refreshing. Visiting Salika wood and learning frans past was a personal highlight, many things come to light concerning Balthier and his involvement with the empire and Basch's later scenes with his brother are very nice.

- Graphics very good but boring

Go into the zertinan caverns and peer over the edges.

- Gambit system is a dumbed down battle system which takes control away from the player. I survived the whole game with 2 gambits. Attack and Cure.

I call bull.

You didn't have to raise a KO'd party member once? Or cure status ailments? Or cast stat buffs? You didn't cast any magic? You must of had some pretty frustrating battles. Even if you were massively over levelled i still find this hard to believe.

They do not take control away from the player. You do that. Gambits can be switched off. You can control your entire party manually if you wish, or just have gambits on two of your party. A few gambits or a whole list, it's completley up to the player, no-one forces you to give up control of your players

- Summons were pathetic and useless and if I remember right, take all your MP to 0 rendering them a liability. Half the time you ran away hoping they would do 1 move before being finished off.

Can't argue here, the summons were awful

- License system allowed no real differences between players and it was impossible to know without a guide which were actually the strongest before you acquired them and trudged half way across the board.

It's called customization mate. You chose what to give your characters in order to define them in battle. Support chars learn magic, tanks lean towards shields and armour, damage dealers on weapons. The weapons were grouped together so once you pick a weapon for a character, upgrades to that weapon are adjacent, with the strongest weapons/armours against the edges. LP wasn't hard to obtain and you can always open up the area where you expect to find something, then reload so you know where it is.

- Limit break moves were tedious, lasted too long and rather pathetic.

The system was flawed, much like the summons. These at least were pretty

- Sidequests were relegated once again to more battles, this time, clan battles. Mini Games didn't exist as far as I can remember. Certainly there was nothing to do compared to Blitzball, cards etc.

Mate what are you talking about, the game was filled with sidequests. Aside from Mark hunting (which was implemented a hundred times better than XIII) their were tonnes of things to do. There's the fishing sidequest, the pirate olympics, find the cockatrices, the nabudis medalion hunt and the sky pirates den to name a few, but the game is absolutley filled with things to do.

- The sound for voices has been compressed so much it sounds like MSN recording.

Didn't have a problem with the voice sound. Though i think the voice actors were the most talented of any FF.

- Unlike FF6-10 which gave you a good chance of figuring out the best weapons and so forth without a guide, FFXII makes sure you have no chance. laughably, even opening the "wrong treasure chest" will result in ultimate weapons becoming unavailable. That should tell you right there how much the designers were taking the piss out of fan-base gullibility.

If i remember, your quite a big fan of IX, am i right? Might i shove Excalibur MKII in your face or did you convenientley forget about it? FFXII is not the first FF to pull a stunt like the zodiac spear so it's quite redundent to even bring it up.

- Treasure chests were random, rendering them almost useless. I really can't fathom why ANYONE had this brainless idea.

I'm actually very fond of the random treasure chests. If you're like me and played a perfect game, you spend lots of times revisiting places that would be alot less entertaining if treasure chests didn't respawn with different spoils.

The whole game was a disaster, and the fact it got such high reviews is baffling.

Not a disaster, just not to your tastes. I hate almost everything about FFXIII, not because it's a terrible game, but because it's the exact opposite of everything i like in a game. I apreciate and respect your opinions, but to label it a disaster is a little unfair. Try understanding the game from someone elses perspective instead of insulting everyone who enjoys it

[ANGRYWOLF]

was insulting.
Did you find my comments insulting ?

They weren't intended to be.


I've struggled to try to be nice to people who liked the game.
To be understanding of their views.
To be tolerant.

Being called names and being threatened, albeit on other FF forums certainly hasn't been helpful.

I agree with seifer about this game. Sorry if that hurts anyone's feelings.
If you like the game that's fine.I won't call anyone names who liked it or question their intelligence.
I also am baffled by why they like it and their explanations don't in my view, stand up to scrutiny.

But to each his own.

[seiferalmasy2]

ahhh Shin Gouken, I am so glad you replied, because as expected you replied in the exact same way everyone else does about this game -with generic nonsense (as in summaries that we knew in the first hour of play and even before) which you have somehow convinced yourself is decent. Let me run through my problems with your replies, especially on the wafer thin plot. And no, that isn't an opinion, it can be plainly demonstrated with how much text there is for main dialogue (far less than VII-X and XIII) and by looking at what happens in the story and how much we actually learn about the characters during the game.

Story is a matter of taste and preference.

This is the ultimate cop out excuse that I hear time and time and time and time and time and time and time again. Story is not just a personal opinion. Yes to a degree it certainly is, but when there are real flaws and real gaps and bad pacing and much less actual dialogue and substance (all of these can be demonstrated), to say that "it is only opinion if you don't like that" is just a major cop out for the flaws.

Yes if you liked the story that is an opinion, however, if I can demonstrate that FF7,8,9,10 and 13 have much more going on and much more character devlopment (and they do, this is a FACT), then yes the statement that "The character devlopment was very poor" is completely true when comparing these games.

If you want "Got to run save the world from giant monster" go play FFX, this game has a more realistic tone (for the most part)

What was realistic about searching for nethecite (sp?)? What was realistic about fighting a random boss who had nothing at all to do with the main plot (see 7,8,9,10 where you are always coming across main plot battles, Rufus, Palmer, Edea, Seifer to name a few of dozens)? This plot was pseudo Political, it gives great orgasms to people who think they are intellectual if they enjoy it and anyone who doesn't isn't "deep enough". Well sorry, the story was poor, the pacing was a joke, the development was extremely poor and thus I don't think I am being unfair calling it crap overall.

What actually happens in XII? Well, the game manual actually tells you almost everything without you having to play the game. Yes it really does. A wannabe sky pirate called Vaan ends up in a quest to save a place from a take over. That is it. We learn nothing more about Vaan than "I want to be a sky pirate" Please tell me what else we learned about him during the course of the game that we didn't know from the first hour of play?

We have characters in this game that have absolutely no reason to be in your party. Fran and Balthier just tag along and so does Penelo. Penelo being the one who also has less character development than Gogo from VI. Ultimate insult coming with the pathetic narration job she does at the end of the game. Don't make me LAUGH.

Then we come to Ashe. And again we can sum her entire existence and plot up by "Her Kingdom is in disarray and she needs nethecite"

is any of this following a pattern yet? It sure as hell is with me.

Then we have Vayne Solidor...who is supposedly the baddie. He has less lines than an NPC (Hyperbole). And then at the end he suddenly turns into a big bad monster. We have no idea of his aspirations, his wants, his drives. Except of course "I want to take over X kingdom" and ...well that is it...

is this pattern becoming clearer?

Vaan has a score to settle because his brother was killed by the empire, Penelo's parents were also killed by the empire though she's mostly there to watch over vaan, Ashe is trying to reclaim her kingdom (pretty obvious that one), Basch swore to protect ashe and Balthier believes he must right his fathers wrongs. Leaving just Fran without a reason for being there so that statement is somewhat flawed i'm afraid.

and we learned all of this from the character summaries. This IS NOT CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT. It is a brief summary which we learn in the first hour or from the game manual. Just READ BACK WHAT YOU HAVE JUST WROTE. IT IS ALL THERE IS TO SAY ABOUT THEM. WHAT MORE DO YOU LEARN? PLEASE TELL US ALL!

As for character development being non existent, it's certainly not as heavy as in previous FF's but but i myself find it refreshing.

You find lack of plot and development refreshing for a story.....can you run me through this immense logic?

Visiting Salika wood and learning frans past was a personal highlight, many things come to light concerning Balthier and his involvement with the empire and Basch's later scenes with his brother are very nice.

Fran was the 1 exception to the rule, it is the only character we learn ANYTHING about from their past (as in character development and not summaries). And as for the brother story....I am sorry but "evil twin" is a laughable plot device used time and again in bad fiction.

Go into the zertinan caverns and peer over the edges.

Exceptions do not alter rules.

I call bull

I call truth.

You didn't have to raise a KO'd party member once? Or cure status ailments? Or cast stat buffs? You didn't cast any magic? You must of had some pretty frustrating battles. Even if you were massively over levelled i still find this hard to believe.

The main bulk of the game I used cure and Attack. And at the end I learned about a monster which you could just leave your game machine on all night. Do you think I was stupid enough to level up by watching my character hack and slash needlessly for 20 hours? I would rather pull my teeth out with pliers! I think that is the biggest joke about this game, you could actually go bed overnight and let the machine fight for you without any interaction. That is how we best sum up this ridiculous little battle system.

They do not take control away from the player. You do that. Gambits can be switched off.

Which leaves you at a severe disadvantage and makes the game even more painful. So no it isn't an option. It is forcing you.

It's called customization mate.

No, it is called bad/lazy planning and design and a step backwards.

These at least were pretty

Graphics mean nothing when we are talking about game-play mechanics.

Didn't have a problem with the voice sound. Though i think the voice actors were the most talented of any FF.

I said the sound quality, not the acting.

If i remember, your quite a big fan of IX, am i right?

No, it ranks as my 4th fave but it is a damn site better than this.

Might i shove Excalibur MKII in your face or did you convenientley forget about it? FFXII is not the first FF to pull a stunt like the zodiac spear so it's quite redundent to even bring it up.

No, I didn't forget about it, that was a 1 off, and you can't use exceptions to break the rule. EX.II was a quest to complete the game in 12 hours, it was nothing at all to do with the main quest of ultimate weapons. And in XII as I said, all you do is find it by grinding. There is nothing clever to it like having to beat the game in 12 hours. That was a challenge, this was an excuse to make you buy a guide so you knew which chests not to open. That isn't the same thing.

I'm actually very fond of the random treasure chests. If you're like me and played a perfect game, you spend lots of times revisiting places that would be alot less entertaining if treasure chests didn't respawn with different spoils.

Which generally gave you a few gil and was an awful idea. Why on earth would it be good to have a few poxy gambits and gil out of chests and nothing of real merit?

instead of insulting everyone who enjoys it

I didn't insult anyone, I am afraid. I INSULTED THIS WORTHLESS GAME. It seems you took the attack on the game...personally. A typical flaw. But you can take this post for free and I won't be back to reply again as I feel my 3 posts stand up to scrutiny more than the usual and useless "he wants to be a sky pirate and has a bad brother" kind of responses....

Plus, we all know where this ends.... and don't take seriously my tone. It is always forceful to get the point across. I don't mean anyone any harm with it, but it isn't my nature to shy away from aggressive debate where it is needed, and especially when I feel points about something are being washed over. At the end of the day this is a game and so some perspective is always needed.

[Ragebrain The Enraged]

FFXII rocks!

[Shin Gouken]

This is the ultimate cop out excuse that I hear time and time and time and time and time and time and time again. Story is not just a personal opinion. Yes to a degree it certainly is, but when there are real flaws and real gaps and bad pacing and much less actual dialogue and substance (all of these can be demonstrated), to say that "it is only opinion if you don't like that" is just a major cop out for the flaws.

Yes if you liked the story that is an opinion, however, if I can demonstrate that FF7,8,9,10 and 13 have much more going on and much more character devlopment (and they do, this is a FACT), then yes the statement that "The character devlopment was very poor" is completely true when comparing these games.

It isn't a flaw. FFXII was designed to focus less on the characters and story and more on exploration and gameplay. Basically the opposite to FFXIII. The characters in XII are the least developed in the series, but that is only a problem if you thrive on character development, which means that this IS a personal preference and matter of opinion.

What was realistic about searching for nethecite (sp?)? What was realistic about fighting a random boss who had nothing at all to do with the main plot (see 7,8,9,10 where you are always coming across main plot battles, Rufus, Palmer, Edea, Seifer to name a few of dozens)? This plot was pseudo Political, it gives great orgasms to people who think they are intellectual if they enjoy it and anyone who doesn't isn't "deep enough". Well sorry, the story was poor, the pacing was a joke, the development was extremely poor and thus I don't think I am being unfair calling it crap overall.

What actually happens in XII? Well, the game manual actually tells you almost everything without you having to play the game. Yes it really does. A wannabe sky pirate called Vaan ends up in a quest to save a place from a take over. That is it. We learn nothing more about Vaan than "I want to be a sky pirate" Please tell me what else we learned about him during the course of the game that we didn't know from the first hour of play?

*Sigh* Did you play the game? The empire are manufacturing a weapon that can destroy their enemy in a single blow. They spend alot of time trying to manouver Rozzaria and the Insurgance into combining their might and launching a full frontal assault, which would allow the empire to destroy them both. Knowing this, your party are desperatley trying to avert war.

Vaans character is irrelevent, he is the eyes that we see events unfolding from, why should we be bombarded with useless information about him? If you like character development, you're playing the wrong game.

We have characters in this game that have absolutely no reason to be in your party. Fran and Balthier just tag along and so does Penelo. Penelo being the one who also has less character development than Gogo from VI. Ultimate insult coming with the pathetic narration job she does at the end of the game. Don't make me LAUGH.

Then we come to Ashe. And again we can sum her entire existence and plot up by "Her Kingdom is in disarray and she needs nethecite"

is any of this following a pattern yet? It sure as hell is with me.

Then we have Vayne Solidor...who is supposedly the baddie. He has less lines than an NPC (Hyperbole). And then at the end he suddenly turns into a big bad monster. We have no idea of his aspirations, his wants, his drives. Except of course "I want to take over X kingdom" and ...well that is it...

is this pattern becoming clearer?

Vayne is power hungry. How are his motives any less defined than Kefka's or Sephirophs. I wouldn't compare Vayne to either Kefka or Sephiroph of course because he does indeed fall short of those more memorable characters, but why are you so obcessed with FFXII mimicing every other FF.

and we learned all of this from the character summaries. This IS NOT CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT. It is a brief summary which we learn in the first hour or from the game manual. Just READ BACK WHAT YOU HAVE JUST WROTE. IT IS ALL THERE IS TO SAY ABOUT THEM. WHAT MORE DO YOU LEARN? PLEASE TELL US ALL!

Actually the points i made that got this response were aimed at why party members are in your party, NOT as an arguement to back up character depth.

You find lack of plot and development refreshing for a story.....can you run me through this immense logic?

Sure, i'll help you understand my logic. In many previous FF's to date, character development is overpowering and suffocating. So much so that the plot is hindered to support it. In FFXIII nothing happens in chapters 2-8, it's all character focused. In FFVII, nothing happens regarding plot on disc two, again, it's all character focus. FFV and FFXII are my favorite FF's because they don't waste so much of my time on unessesary rubbish i could care less about. This is another example of each to their own, not a flaw in the game, because as i said before, the game was intended to be this way with it's focus on the gameplay.

Exceptions do not alter rules.

This was the most obvious example. Go visit the Nabreus deadlands or the Necrohol of Nabudis.

The main bulk of the game I used cure and Attack. And at the end I learned about a monster which you could just leave your game machine on all night. Do you think I was stupid enough to level up by watching my character hack and slash needlessly for 20 hours? I would rather pull my teeth out with pliers! I think that is the biggest joke about this game, you could actually go bed overnight and let the machine fight for you without any interaction. That is how we best sum up this ridiculous little battle system.

The prepartions and knowledge you need to set up against this flaw would have required you to source this information online. If you went through the trouble of locating and spawning said enemy and arranging the complex gambit set up needed then it is a clear example of you abusing the system.

The battle system (again) is for the player to decide how he/she wishes to use it. Organize it to suit your playing style. It gives you the choice to do so which makes any arguement regarding it redundent.

Which leaves you at a severe disadvantage and makes the game even more painful. So no it isn't an option. It is forcing you.

I thought you only used attack and cure? You can't be arsed playing through the entire game just using attack and cure, you had to make the game do it for you? How lazy are you?

Again, switch off gambits, problem solved. Having trouble keeping up with the pace of battle, lower the battle speed. Try arranging a few less gambits, or perhaps try utalizing the system a little more. The system isn't flawed. People abuse it and complain after doing so.

No, it is called bad/lazy planning and design and a step backwards.

FFXII allows you to designate "Jobs" or "Classes" to your characters. Again, you want it done for you which is another case of you being too lazy to play the game.

I said the sound quality, not the acting.

So we're at least agreed the voice acting was good.

No, I didn't forget about it, that was a 1 off, and you can't use exceptions to break the rule. EX.II was a quest to complete the game in 12 hours, it was nothing at all to do with the main quest of ultimate weapons. And in XII as I said, all you do is find it by grinding. There is nothing clever to it like having to beat the game in 12 hours. That was a challenge, this was an excuse to make you buy a guide so you knew which chests not to open. That isn't the same thing.

It isn't a one off. There is a thread somewhere where someone was nice enough to detail pretty much the same flaw in most every FF.

Which generally gave you a few gil and was an awful idea. Why on earth would it be good to have a few poxy gambits and gil out of chests and nothing of real merit?

This is another case of you being lazy and wanting everything handed to you.

I didn't insult anyone, I am afraid. I INSULTED THIS WORTHLESS GAME. It seems you took the attack on the game...personally. A typical flaw. But you can take this post for free and I won't be back to reply again as I feel my 3 posts stand up to scrutiny more than the usual and useless "he wants to be a sky pirate and has a bad brother" kind of responses....

I didn't take it personally, but your attitude is very unfair. Your arguements are mostly a matter of opinion and are not genuine faults, simply things you personally dislike. I apreciate you have no love for the game, but lots of us do and we'll happily argue it's case.