Did you like FINAL FANTASY XII?

[seiferalmasy2]

I know I said I wouldn't be back, but I am waiting for you to tell us all what else we learn about the characters during the game Every time I ask that question about this game it is ignored. So far your answers to what this story was about and what the characters are about have all come from brief summaries that we learn from the game manual or the first hour of play. I am waiting.......

And yes I did learn from someone about that monster which allows you to level up (actually it is another thing that is impossible to find without a guide) As I said, I did this because the alternative was actually watching my characters hack and slash on their own rather than just go bed and let them do it. I couldn't wait to finish this crap :P

[Shin Gouken]

I know I said I wouldn't be back, but I am waiting for you to tell us all what else we learn about the characters during the game Every time I ask that question about this game it is ignored. So far your answers to what this story was about and what the characters are about have all come from brief summaries that we learn from the game manual or the first hour of play. I am waiting.......

And yes I did learn from someone about that monster which allows you to level up (actually it is another thing that is impossible to find without a guide) As I said, I did this because the alternative was actually watching my characters hack and slash on their own rather than just go bed and let them do it. I couldn't wait to finish this crap :P

It wasn't ignored, if you read back, i actually agreed with you =)

But i went on to argue that less focus on character depth isn't a fault as the game was designed that way, and many of us apreciate it.

Why is character depth so important to you? Should all FF's be defined by the amount of depth their characters had?

There were more intersting places you could go to level your character, places that actually would have provided you with more of a challenge and tested you a little more.

[seiferalmasy2]

A story is defined by what happens in it and by character development, Without these things you cannot hope to get attached to any of the characters or the story or care about anything that goes on.

And this, is precisely the criticism XII often gets. No one cares about Ashe or vaan or Solidor or this empire or the people or anything at all. They could be Tom, Dick and Harry. No one can feel the threat of this empire, although that threat is eluded to. No one can feel anything and thus the story is like someone giving you a lump of clay and telling you a great work of art lies somewhere in it if you can arrange it properly.

Without attachment to characters, you will not care about them, and there is no emotion. Without these things you cannot sympathise with their plight/struggle or adventure, and without that, the story is like a cheap piece of cardboard.

For a human, emotional attachment to characters via character depth and development is paramount to a story. The story is more than just a set of rules or quotes or summaries. It is the emotion. If Aerith hadn't have had any character development in VII, when it came to her death, the vast majority of people would not have had any feeling one way or another.

The fact that it is cited often as a pivotal moment in gaming history is precisely because it succeeded in evoking emotion and it could only do that because the vast majority of people cared.

Tetsuya Nomura "Death should be something sudden and unexpected, and Aerith's death seemed more natural and realistic", and "When I reflect on Final Fantasy VII, the fact that fans were so offended by her sudden death probably means that we were successful with her character. If fans had simply accepted her death, that would have meant she wasn't an effective character."

Substitute Aerith for Ashe, and no one would have given 2 hoots. That isn't because the plot point would have failed, but because the actual development had failed.

[YTDN]

Sure, i'll help you understand my logic. In many previous FF's to date, character development is overpowering and suffocating. So much so that the plot is hindered to support it. In FFXIII nothing happens in chapters 2-8, it's all character focused. In FFVII, nothing happens regarding plot on disc two, again, it's all character focus. FFV and FFXII are my favorite FF's because they don't waste so much of my time on unessesary rubbish i could care less about. This is another example of each to their own, not a flaw in the game, because as i said before, the game was intended to be this way with it's focus on the gameplay.

This would be a good criticism, if something had actually happened in FFXII. And sure, stuff happens at the beginning, but for a good third of the game the main party is trudging through the back end of nowhere achieving nothing.

[Fynn]

A story is defined by what happens in it and by character development, Without these things you cannot hope to get attached to any of the characters or the story or care about anything that goes on.

And this, is precisely the criticism XII often gets. No one cares about Ashe or vaan or Solidor or this empire or the people or anything at all. They could be Tom, Dick and Harry. No one can feel the threat of this empire, although that threat is eluded to. No one can feel anything and thus the story is like someone giving you a lump of clay and telling you a great work of art lies somewhere in it if you can arrange it properly.

Without attachment to characters, you will not care about them, and there is no emotion. Without these things you cannot sympathise with their plight/struggle or adventure, and without that, the story is like a cheap piece of cardboard.

For a human, emotional attachment to characters via character depth and development is paramount to a story. The story is more than just a set of rules or quotes or summaries. It is the emotion. If Aerith hadn't have had any character development in VII, when it came to her death, the vast majority of people would not have had any feeling one way or another.

The fact that it is cited often as a pivotal moment in gaming history is precisely because it succeeded in evoking emotion and it could only do that because the vast majority of people cared.

Tetsuya Nomura "Death should be something sudden and unexpected, and Aerith's death seemed more natural and realistic", and "When I reflect on Final Fantasy VII, the fact that fans were so offended by her sudden death probably means that we were successful with her character. If fans had simply accepted her death, that would have meant she wasn't an effective character."

Substitute Aerith for Ashe, and no one would have given 2 hoots. That isn't because the plot point would have failed, but because the actual development had failed.

This whole "evoking human emotions!" thing seems to be a pretty cheap approach. You can easilly achieve the stuff you talk about, but it's a bit harder to achieve something good without having to desperately try to "reach" the people. It's like comparing bestsellers to the really meaningful books (I'm not saying FFXII is as ambitious as such stuff, but is closer to it than other FFs) - anyone can identify with the characters of the former, but it takes more thought to get the bigger picture in the latter. Same with music - catchy music is fine for the masses, but artistic music can be considered "crap" by most, though it actually carries the truest beauty.

Just so that my words don't prove empty, I'll back it up with some in-game evidence. Here's your lack of character development, then: Ashe. She is shaken by the death of her husband, loss of kingdom, and all that stuff. She then decides to take revenge (how original). The images of Rasler she sees on her journey make her want to achieve her goal more. But at the same time, she encounters Larsa, and sees that the empire is not as evil as she thought it to be. Meeting the Occuria makes her question herself, as she turns out to have been just their pawn in shaping their own image of Ivalice's history. She decides to go against the self-proclaimed gods by rejecting revenge on the empire, instead trying to achieve the independence of her kingdom by peace. Her decision was a hard and mature one, because had she followed her original path, driven by human feelings of loss and anger, she would have caused the land to be engulfed in a yet greater, perhaps neverending conflict.

I consider this to be good character development, though it's not in-your-face or melodramatic, as stuff tends to be nowadays. Though I'm not saying it's a bad thing - it appeals to the masses, myself included, and no one's wrong for liking that. No one is wrong for liking FFXII's story either, though you consider it to be bad (though it isn't, it's just different from the others, and thus a lot of people dislike it ).

[black orb]

>>> I liked it, like everyone said the story/plot was lacking but everything else was great..

[Shin Gouken]

A story is defined by what happens in it and by character development, Without these things you cannot hope to get attached to any of the characters or the story or care about anything that goes on.

And this, is precisely the criticism XII often gets. No one cares about Ashe or vaan or Solidor or this empire or the people or anything at all. They could be Tom, Dick and Harry. No one can feel the threat of this empire, although that threat is eluded to. No one can feel anything and thus the story is like someone giving you a lump of clay and telling you a great work of art lies somewhere in it if you can arrange it properly.

Without attachment to characters, you will not care about them, and there is no emotion. Without these things you cannot sympathise with their plight/struggle or adventure, and without that, the story is like a cheap piece of cardboard.

For a human, emotional attachment to characters via character depth and development is paramount to a story. The story is more than just a set of rules or quotes or summaries. It is the emotion. If Aerith hadn't have had any character development in VII, when it came to her death, the vast majority of people would not have had any feeling one way or another.

The fact that it is cited often as a pivotal moment in gaming history is precisely because it succeeded in evoking emotion and it could only do that because the vast majority of people cared.

Tetsuya Nomura "Death should be something sudden and unexpected, and Aerith's death seemed more natural and realistic", and "When I reflect on Final Fantasy VII, the fact that fans were so offended by her sudden death probably means that we were successful with her character. If fans had simply accepted her death, that would have meant she wasn't an effective character."

Substitute Aerith for Ashe, and no one would have given 2 hoots. That isn't because the plot point would have failed, but because the actual development had failed.

This whole "evoking human emotions!" thing seems to be a pretty cheap approach. You can easilly achieve the stuff you talk about, but it's a bit harder to achieve something good without having to desperately try to "reach" the people. It's like comparing bestsellers to the really meaningful books (I'm not saying FFXII is as ambitious as such stuff, but is closer to it than other FFs) - anyone can identify with the characters of the former, but it takes more thought to get the bigger picture in the latter. Same with music - catchy music is fine for the masses, but artistic music can be considered "crap" by most, though it actually carries the truest beauty.

Just so that my words don't prove empty, I'll back it up with some in-game evidence. Here's your lack of character development, then: Ashe. She is shaken by the death of her husband, loss of kingdom, and all that stuff. She then decides to take revenge (how original). The images of Rasler she sees on her journey make her want to achieve her goal more. But at the same time, she encounters Larsa, and sees that the empire is not as evil as she thought it to be. Meeting the Occuria makes her question herself, as she turns out to have been just their pawn in shaping their own image of Ivalice's history. She decides to go against the self-proclaimed gods by rejecting revenge on the empire, instead trying to achieve the independence of her kingdom by peace. Her decision was a hard and mature one, because had she followed her original path, driven by human feelings of loss and anger, she would have caused the land to be engulfed in a yet greater, perhaps neverending conflict.

I consider this to be good character development, though it's not in-your-face or melodramatic, as stuff tends to be nowadays. Though I'm not saying it's a bad thing - it appeals to the masses, myself included, and no one's wrong for liking that. No one is wrong for liking FFXII's story either, though you consider it to be bad (though it isn't, it's just different from the others, and thus a lot of people dislike it ).

Very nicely said.

Yes, FFXII has less character develpment than most all other FF's. But it most certainly is not absent, it's simply more subtle.

When FF tries to invoke emotion in the player, i myself can see that it's exactly what they are trying to do. Aerith for example was a clear plot device, designed to reach out to the player and fuel their hatred for sephiroth.

But people eat that up.

So again i'll say,having it toned down and taking a subtle approach is not a flaw in FFXII. I understand why people would find it harder being emotionally attached to the characters, and such can understand their general view on the game. But not everyone is the same. I and many others apreciate what FFXII was trying to accomplish

[seiferalmasy2]

FFXII rocks!

[Persephone Stephanie]

This whole "evoking human emotions!" thing seems to be a pretty cheap approach. You can easilly achieve the stuff you talk about, but it's a bit harder to achieve something good without having to desperately try to "reach" the people. It's like comparing bestsellers to the really meaningful books (I'm not saying FFXII is as ambitious as such stuff, but is closer to it than other FFs) - anyone can identify with the characters of the former, but it takes more thought to get the bigger picture in the latter. Same with music - catchy music is fine for the masses, but artistic music can be considered "crap" by most, though it actually carries the truest beauty.

Just so that my words don't prove empty, I'll back it up with some in-game evidence. Here's your lack of character development, then: Ashe. She is shaken by the death of her husband, loss of kingdom, and all that stuff. She then decides to take revenge (how original). The images of Rasler she sees on her journey make her want to achieve her goal more. But at the same time, she encounters Larsa, and sees that the empire is not as evil as she thought it to be. Meeting the Occuria makes her question herself, as she turns out to have been just their pawn in shaping their own image of Ivalice's history. She decides to go against the self-proclaimed gods by rejecting revenge on the empire, instead trying to achieve the independence of her kingdom by peace. Her decision was a hard and mature one, because had she followed her original path, driven by human feelings of loss and anger, she would have caused the land to be engulfed in a yet greater, perhaps neverending conflict.

I consider this to be good character development, though it's not in-your-face or melodramatic, as stuff tends to be nowadays. Though I'm not saying it's a bad thing - it appeals to the masses, myself included, and no one's wrong for liking that. No one is wrong for liking FFXII's story either, though you consider it to be bad (though it isn't, it's just different from the others, and thus a lot of people dislike it ).

I really like what you've said here. I am not sure where people get this idea that in order for a story to be good, it must reveal as much as possible about the characters so as to evoke an emotional reaction, and that this emotional involvement means the characters (and work itself) have depth.

I have to disagree with you, seiferalmasy2, that a story is defined by "what happens in it and by character development". First of all I have to say the term "character development" really bothers me. It's thrown about so much to describe what the gamer is told about the characters and but it sounds like it should be used more in the developmental stage of the game itself. Secondly, I think a story is defined more by character action and the narrative (how the story is represented) than just the events and exposition of character. This is how FFXII is so different to all the other FFs.

I agree with you that without exposition we cannot care about the characters or story. What I disagree with is your assumption that a narrative should seek to emotionally invest in the characters and that the exposition has to achieve this in order for a story to have gravity.

It's easy for anybody to write a story that jerks tears and pulls heartstrings. I'm sure many girls have cried to sleep at night over Edward and Bella from Twilight. Their emotions have reacted to the lengthy and highly detailed exposition of a romance. But this emphasis on emotions doesn't make the story good in any way. It doesn't even mean the characters are relatable or you can get attached to them. It just means your emotions were played.

FFXII doesn't rely on this kind of close character detail as a means to provide exposition to the story. It doesn't need to and its narrative (representation) would suffer if it did. The fact the narrative does not rely on getting inside the character's heads as much as other Final Fantasy games does not mean one cannot care about what happens. A lack of "emotional attachment" does not even mean a lack of character exposition, in fact it means nothing at all except your expectations weren't met.

What did you want as character development in FFXII? Please give me an example because I am genuinely curious. What scenes would you have liked, events etc.

...ugh I can't be bothered writing anymore which is excellent, because this is long winded and no one's going to even read it. Also, please don't interpret what I'm saying as "OH MY GOSH FFXII IS THE BEST THE REST ALL SUCKS". I don't mean that, I actually really enjoyed FFX and VII, but I just don't like the idea that stories have to have fully elaborated upon characters in order to have any meaning.

[Fynn]

I read your post, Persephone Stephanie and I wholeheartedly agree with what you said there, which you could as well figure out by my earlier post

FFXII rocks!

Now this just shows that in the face of a coherent and solid argument against yours you simply back out. I showed you just what you asked us to, and you just went and chose an opinion that fit your description. There are a lot of FFXII fans who like the game for solid and valid reasons and you, o master of storytelling, do your best to ignore it. That, my friend, is hypocrisy.

[Vivisteiner]

Brilliant game.

Flawed of course, but I think everyone realises that. It also had a ridiculous amount of potential which was not fulfilled.

[seiferalmasy2]

I didn't mean that ONLY character devlopment matters to story, but if you don't have much of it, then you won't care for the characters, you won't care what is going on.

That is exactly the problem with XII. No one cares about this kingdom, no one can empathise with the characters or their struggles. It is a cardboard story with plasticine characters.

Story needs more than just its base., It needs you to care about it, and you can't care about it if your main characters say around 10 words every hour, and the main villain has less development than gogo then suddenly turns into a RarrarAAWWRRrr monster!

If you are arguing that stories can be just as good without the character's being developed, then I have to disagree completely. A good story depends heavily on it, that is a fact.

[ChickenHeart]

@ seifer

I thought Vayne was a great villian, i expected him to be another kuja, but he wasn't crazy like kelfa, he wasn't as confusing as dynstly, he was smart, he wasn't rash, he picked his time well, he was actually in some parts nice? It might just be me but i like those traits for villians. It gives a me a sense of them being real.

[Wolf Kanno]

I didn't mean that ONLY character devlopment matters to story, but if you don't have much of it, then you won't care for the characters, you won't care what is going on.

That is exactly the problem with XII. No one cares about this kingdom, no one can empathise with the characters or their struggles. It is a cardboard story with plasticine characters.

Story needs more than just its base., It needs you to care about it, and you can't care about it if your main characters say around 10 words every hour, and the main villain has less development than gogo then suddenly turns into a RarrarAAWWRRrr monster!

If you are arguing that stories can be just as good without the character's being developed, then I have to disagree completely. A good story depends heavily on it, that is a fact.

Ico

I think this is all I really need to say, this game had easily one of the most touching stories with great characters in a game and there is minimal dialogue and one of the characters even speaks in a language you never understand. They both have little backstory and little dialogue together but the ending is an emotional rollercoaster for the player. So yes, I would ague you don't need character development to make a good story, it really depends on what kind of story you are doing.

I feel the whole cast (XII) actually has great development that doesn't need to rely on the weakness of out place cheesy expositions like other JRPGs. Vaan has one of the most realistic "coming of age" stories that it just makes you realize how silly every other version has been up until him, Balthier deals with his issues with his father, Fran with her sisters, Basch and his brother, and Penelo helps to bridge the gap between Dalmasca and Archades. Ashe herself throws an entire RPG cliche on its head as she struggles to choose between her desire for revenge and her duty to her people.

Vayne himself is easily more complex than most previous villains in the series. The fact people debate whether he should be counted as a true villain when his goals were noble and the way he treated his brother show that he's not some mindless drone out for godhood like every other RPG villain of the last 20 years. Ivalice itself is a massive world that feels more alive and has more content in its little region than most of the FFs combined. I feel its very easy to find something appealing about its world as long as one bothers to explore and look into it.

On topic: Yes, I did really like FFXII cause it was the breath of fresh air the series really needed, it did away with the over the top anime cliche nonsense and actually tried to bring in (though lobotomized) a mature political story and I feel Lady Ashe' personal conflict is easily one of the most human and most inspiring story in the series history outside of perhaps FFTactics.

I like the Gambit system, I enjoyed customizing my party with an equipment system from FFTactics that puts more weight on strategy than other titles, I loved Mark Hunts that actually challenged me to learn new ways to use the combat system, I loved the fact I could actually explore seeing as how the two single player console entries this game is sandwiched between are both on rails. I like talking to NPC's and stumbling upon unexpected (and often humorous) sidequests, I liked fishing (maybe not as much as BoF but that one is practically a fishing sim), and I love the fact that it doesn't have a real fairy tale ending. and I liked the fact I could summon the smurfing Lucavi from Tactics and that they weren't as blatantly broken as the Aeons.

It would be faster if I just mentioned what I didn't like about the game cause that list is surprisingly short and everyone knows I'm nitpicky as hell when it comes to RPGs. I seriously found nothing but love for this game. Could it be better? Hell yeah, but what game couldn't? There is no perfect game so I almost feel this question is rhetorical at best.

[Persephone Stephanie]

Ico

Oh! That's such an excellent example of how a game doesn't need "character development" in order to invoke affection for the characters. Shadow of the Colossus, too - I was wrecked at the end of that.

I think your argument seiferalmasy2 is basically made moot by the fact there are people who care about what happens in Ivalice. I did, Wolf Kanno, some other people did... we just found ways to appreciate the characters and story without the need for heavy character exposition. I think you need to define what you mean by character development more, because as I said before it really doesn't mean anything. Your statement that a good story depends heavily on these things is false. There are many ways to tell a good story without heavy exposition. See Ico and SotC for that.