Did you like FINAL FANTASY XII?

[seiferalmasy2]

I find it curious that so many of you seem to have seen something that isn't actually there. You can't put dialogue where it wasn't. If you add up the actual dialogue from XII which is part of the main characters it must be an order of 4X less than VII (actually probably an order of 10X or even more) or miles less than any other too.

The biggest criticism XII gets is that its Character development is lack lustre, and even some fans of the game here concede that.

I am not sure where people are seeing these characters as well developed or great when we could write what we know of them on a toilet roll. Solidor is prob the most underdeveloped baddie since Ultimecia but even she had more dialogue and purpose, and we had other antagonists in VIII like Seifer and Edea (through Ultimecia) and Adel.

With XII we have a kingdom and some guy and that is it. I am not sure where some of you are finding greatness in this?

The bottom line is, and I am afraid one you cannot escape, this game had far less main dialogue than any other FF from VII onwards, and the pacing was so bad it was embarrassing. There are no excuses for it. There are no ways around it. There is no defending it and "join up the dots" is lame ass response. I would dearly love to know how people see things that aren't there, that way I would lead a happier life, but alas, realism is my nature and seeing things that aren't there comes under delusion.

Those are my final words on this, so chill :P

I will leave you with this I found:

Final Fantasy XII Review for PlayStation 2: Pseudo- political, yet lacking depth - GameFAQs

To write a political storyline, one needs convincing characters to bring it down to a human level. Take for instance, Tolstoy's masterpiece War and Peace which utilizes figures such as Pierre Bezuhkov to bring the 1812 French campaign to the reader's personal level. FFXII unfortunately, masquerades behind a veneer of political intellectualism, using the fact the real concern is the larger struggle between Rozarria and Archadia as a crutch for lacking convincing characters. From the virtual non-entity of Penelo to the stereotypical Ashe, the characters seem wooden and sterile. The lack of a traditional FF love story really doesn't do this any favours and most of the time, you're thinking that whether the Empire wins or not is of no consequence. From the awkward silence of Vaan and Ashe having a discussion outside a camp which is screaming "love plot" to Vayne's machinations, there are glimpses of something that could have been brilliant, but yet somehow failed.

Final Fantasy XII Review for PlayStation 2: Plenty of style, but no real substance - GameFAQs

Here's the game's real killer. An RPG's main hook is its story -- if you don't care about what's going on, there isn't much reason to play. The story starts off with an impressive bang (the first 10 hours of the game are highly entertaining because of this), but soon after all of the main characters are in your party, the fun stops. Most characters have poor reasons for being on their adventure. At least half of the party has no real reason to be there at all. Ashe, the center of the story that keeps it moving, isn't a likable character at all, leaving the player spending 90% of the story trying to help her get her poorly-planned revenge to "save" the country that was taken from her.

This sort of story would probably come out a lot more interesting if the country she was trying to "save" seemed to be in danger. The ruler Ashe is attempting to overthrow seems to be a better ruler than she could ever be, and the people in Ashe's homeland seem happy even under "enemy" rule, which leads the player to wonder if there really is a point to her little revenge adventure.

Terrible dialogue further hinders the plot. Every line of story in the game has more frill than content. While such writing does fit the "fantasy" theme, it's often very difficult to understand what the characters are talking about. Though the characters' long-winded speeches sound quite pretty, their overall lack of content and coherency makes them very boring.

There's just nothing in the story to make the player want to smile. NPCs have nothing interesting to say, the plot is terrible, and the main characters (excluding Balthier, whose witty lines are quite entertaining) are dull and unresponsive. You'd think if a giant boss monster ambushed you in the middle of a sewer you'd have something to say, right? Unfortunately, though, in Final Fantasy XII, the characters spend almost the entire game wandering around like silent unresponsive zombies, making no effort to interact with their environments. Yawn.

[YTDN]

This sort of story would probably come out a lot more interesting if the country she was trying to "save" seemed to be in danger. The ruler Ashe is attempting to overthrow seems to be a better ruler than she could ever be, and the people in Ashe's homeland seem happy even under "enemy" rule, which leads the player to wonder if there really is a point to her little revenge adventure.

I'm gonna have to agree on this point. I remember about half-way through the game coming to the realisation that I didn't even know why I should want to defeat Vayne. Sure, he was in the way of Ashe getting Dalmasca back, but it was hard to see why that was so important, since it seemed to be in an okay condition. Didn't help that I wanted to slap Ashe round the face half the time. I get the feeling I might be one of the only people in the world who preferred the parts when Vaan is still the main character (basically, until you get captured on the Leviathan).

Then again, this is all just opinion. I personally prefer expansive 'save the world' plots and villains I actually really want to kill.

[Shin Gouken]

I find it curious that so many of you seem to have seen something that isn't actually there. You can't put dialogue where it wasn't. If you add up the actual dialogue from XII which is part of the main characters it must be an order of 4X less than VII (actually probably an order of 10X or even more) or miles less than any other too.

The biggest criticism XII gets is that its Character development is lack lustre, and even some fans of the game here concede that.

I am not sure where people are seeing these characters as well developed or great when we could write what we know of them on a toilet roll. Solidor is prob the most underdeveloped baddie since Ultimecia but even she had more dialogue and purpose, and we had other antagonists in VIII like Seifer and Edea (through Ultimecia) and Adel.

With XII we have a kingdom and some guy and that is it. I am not sure where some of you are finding greatness in this?

The bottom line is, and I am afraid one you cannot escape, this game had far less main dialogue than any other FF from VII onwards, and the pacing was so bad it was embarrassing. There are no excuses for it. There are no ways around it. There is no defending it and "join up the dots" is lame ass response. I would dearly love to know how people see things that aren't there, that way I would lead a happier life, but alas, realism is my nature and seeing things that aren't there comes under delusion.

Those are my final words on this, so chill :P

debating with you is extremeley repetitive and redundent when you continually repeat the same arguement, despite it having been addressed several times before. So seeing as you have no intention to reply, i'm going to just get right down to the main points.

That is exactly the problem with XII. No one cares about this kingdom, no one can empathise with the characters or their struggles. It is a cardboard story with plasticine characters.

No one cares about Ashe or vaan or Solidor or this empire or the people or anything at all.

Unfortunatley there is nothing to back this up. Several people posting here, myself included, and on other forums alike seem to disagree. Why do you have so much trouble believing that the story and character structure used in this game is actually liked by people. Many people may share your opinion on this, but it is by no means the majority. Accept that this is your opinion and not fact.

You attack FFXIII for having an abundence of dialogue, and you attack FFXII for it's lack of dialogue. This only tells me that you are impossibley difficult to please. SE are'nt going to make a game that falls into the exact amount of dialogue that suits you personally. There is nothing wrong with either approach.

Fire away with any and all the complaints you have with this game, because so far, all i hear are opinions, which are fine. But you've bought very little in terms of actual flaws into this debate. Arguing over who's opinion is right is completley pointless

[ANGRYWOLF]

just saying that to counter what seems to me to be exaggeration on the part of shin..rotfl...
I don't agree that seifer arguments have been addressed either rotfl...
I see his arguments having merit..I see the counterarguments as being flawed and without substance...
Nothing personal against those who loved or liked FFXII.
I want to emphasize that.

I won't stoop to what some of the FFXII fans have fallen into..as I have said previously..some of them were abusive towards me and others who aren't fans of the game..on other forums.

I have always been preplexed by the favorable opinions about the game.
Just as seifer has an unfavorable opinion about the game shin has a favorable one.
Just because shin for example likes it doesn't validate his views about it..or the views of anyone else who likes it.

shrugs.

It's all a matter of opinion and debating it is pointless..I agree with that assertion because no one who dislikes it is going to convince those who like it of its perceived flaws and no one who likes it is going to convince those of us who believe it is a seriously flawed game that it's touching......I almost doubled over when I read that remark........rotfl....or memorable..or anything like that.

I certainly didn't care what happened to Ivalice in this game..compared to the fact I did care in FFTactics..because in that game I cared about Ramza and the rest of the characters that joined the party.
It's all part of character developement which some posters poo pooed in this thread but is vital , at least for me, in a role playing game.

Arguing about this game, FFXIII, FFVII...the overated thread or any FF is pointless...

I do find it entertaining at times though..and worth a few laughs..rotfl...

[seiferalmasy2]

You attack FFXIII for having an abundence of dialogue, and you attack FFXII for it's lack of dialogue. This only tells me that you are impossibley difficult to please.

You seem to be very confused about the word "balance".... I was very pleased with 7,8,9 and 10 so obviously that statement is bogus (and as I said I won't be addressing XII issues directly here again). Same thing has happened with a lot of my fave series:

Resident Evil (after 3) : Dumbed down graphic fest.
Command and Conquer (after Red Alert 2): convulted graphic fest.
Metal gear Solid (as of 4): Dumbed down graphic fest with bloat.

Is it any wonder I am fed up with where the games industry is going? It now relies on its fanbase and graphics. When I have to play 1997 games to satisfy my brain, there is a problem; when Mario 3 for the NES has much more to do in it than FFXIII there is a problem; when FF6 for the SNES has more story than XII there is a problem....

[Fynn]

This discussion has reached such layers of nonsense it's ridiculous. It was meant to share opininions and not to tell other people their opinions are wrong, since the large majority of the arguments on both sides were valid. Alas, this is the fate most discussions on Internet fora must face.

Just so that we all calm down, allow me to summarize the facts and opionions we've gathered about FFXII's story.
FACT: it was badly-paced, had little dialogue, little character exposition, yet character development, backstories &c. were present.
NEGATIVE OPINION: the amount of dialogue and character development impairs emotional attachment. Former FFs concentrated on the characters' inner conflicts. This one is different, in a bad way.
POSITIVE OPINION: though emotions weren't the central point of the plot, this was a more realistic approach and the little character development that was there delivered emotional moments as well. This is different from other FFs, which is good, a breath fresh air of sorts.

BOTTOM LINE: All the arguments used in the doscussion are valid. All had supporting evidence and substance. Now the opinion depends on individual interpretations and expectations. I personally loved the characters and story, because the different approach appealed to me very much and I do not consider it to be poor writing in any way (the pacing, of course, is a completely different matter). But people have the right to share my opinion or have a completely different one, and nobody is wrong, lacking coherence, substance, or anything. Now it all comes down to liking the game. You do not - then do not ignore the reasons why people do, because just because their views about the game are different than yours doesn't mean they're irrelevant.

[Clo]

This sort of story would probably come out a lot more interesting if the country she was trying to "save" seemed to be in danger. The ruler Ashe is attempting to overthrow seems to be a better ruler than she could ever be, and the people in Ashe's homeland seem happy even under "enemy" rule, which leads the player to wonder if there really is a point to her little revenge adventure.

I'm gonna have to agree on this point. I remember about half-way through the game coming to the realisation that I didn't even know why I should want to defeat Vayne. Sure, he was in the way of Ashe getting Dalmasca back, but it was hard to see why that was so important, since it seemed to be in an okay condition. Didn't help that I wanted to slap Ashe round the face half the time. I get the feeling I might be one of the only people in the world who preferred the parts when Vaan is still the main character (basically, until you get captured on the Leviathan).

I thought all of this throughout the game as well. It's sad, because I think Ashe had a lot of potential to be an amazing female lead. I actually like how she's a lot more harsh and succinct with people than any female protagonist in any of the other FF, however this didn't really mean much without character interaction, which there was so very little of. And I never really saw anything wrong with the occupation, and in fact, Vayne never even seemed that evil to me. Not saying that a villain has to be "evil", but there needs to be at least several layers of interpretation, where you could find him justified or unjustified or arguably in the right or what not, and I just didn't care about what he was doing with anything either way.

I can't agree with those who liked the game, however, I guess it's interesting, because I didn't realize there were many FF fans who liked this game before stepping into this forum. And in the end it's a good thing, because how can you want a game in the series to be so abhorred? Especially since it's not a terrible game. I found it unfavorable, but there were good things about it. And if people appreciated things that I failed to appreciate, then good.

[ANGRYWOLF]

the fans there love FFXII..
as I found out a few years back..
rotfl..


It's all opinion.

sure someone who posts here occasionally rubs the people who like the game the wrong way.

I feel his arguments are valid......for the most part.

However.......I don't feel people who like the game are wrong on some sort of intelligence quotient level or somehow lack intelligence or discernment.
We don't want to claim any moral superiority.....I don't at any rate because I've been wrong/made enough mistakes to float the planet Jupiter in my bath tub at home.rotfl.

I'm a lot less than perfect so I don't make any claims of having a superior opinion about any rpg game.

I feel FFXII has some serious flaws..that those flaws were not due to Square trying to westernize the game as someone else has claimed but due to Matsuno's breakdown and abrupt and I believe irresponsible departure from Square. Yes I blame Matsuno for it.

But that's just my opinion.

[YTDN]

This sort of story would probably come out a lot more interesting if the country she was trying to "save" seemed to be in danger. The ruler Ashe is attempting to overthrow seems to be a better ruler than she could ever be, and the people in Ashe's homeland seem happy even under "enemy" rule, which leads the player to wonder if there really is a point to her little revenge adventure.

I'm gonna have to agree on this point. I remember about half-way through the game coming to the realisation that I didn't even know why I should want to defeat Vayne. Sure, he was in the way of Ashe getting Dalmasca back, but it was hard to see why that was so important, since it seemed to be in an okay condition. Didn't help that I wanted to slap Ashe round the face half the time. I get the feeling I might be one of the only people in the world who preferred the parts when Vaan is still the main character (basically, until you get captured on the Leviathan).

I thought all of this throughout the game as well. It's sad, because I think Ashe had a lot of potential to be an amazing female lead. I actually like how she's a lot more harsh and succinct with people than any female protagonist in any of the other FF, however this didn't really mean much without character interaction, which there was so very little of. And I never really saw anything wrong with the occupation, and in fact, Vayne never even seemed that evil to me. Not saying that a villain has to be "evil", but there needs to be at least several layers of interpretation, where you could find him justified or unjustified or arguably in the right or what not, and I just didn't care about what he was doing with anything either way.

What I thought would be more interestingn is if there was more exploration of her desire for revenge, and what the other characters thought of it. I mean, knowing one of your close friends harbours secret desires of genocide would colour your opinion of a person. This was explored a bit, with Balthier's little heart-to-heart on the Phon Coast and Fran's constant reminders about her desire for revenge, but what about Vaan's opinion? Basch's? Penelo's? I want to know what everyone's thinking!

I kept thinking that Vayne was going to be the 'decoy' villain, (eg. Rufus, Edea, Brahne(?)) that gets offed two thirds of the way through the story to be replaced by the real, world-destroying villain, which in this case I guess would be the Occuria. Alas, the Occuria turned out to be nothing more than a quaint sideshow, with Vayne doing a complete ideological 180 (what happened to 'I will protect Dalmasca' and wanting Ashe to work with him for peace?) and hulking out on Nethicite.

It didn't help that you only actually meet Vayne face-to-face just before you kill him, even though you spend most of the game 'we must defeat Vayne to save Dalmasca'. It's like you only need to kill him for purely political reasons aka. he's in the way of Ashe getting her throne back. It reminds me of an FFXIII review that said 'you can't hate villains who are only fighting you because you're breaking the law', except here it's 'you can't hate villains you are only fighting 'cause they're in the way of your goals'.

Still, it's all opinions. Maybe I missed something subtle, but I like heroes you can root for and villains you can really, really hate.

[the AJman]

What I thought would be more interestingn is if there was more exploration of her desire for revenge, and what the other characters thought of it. I mean, knowing one of your close friends harbours secret desires of genocide would colour your opinion of a person. This was explored a bit, with Balthier's little heart-to-heart on the Phon Coast and Fran's constant reminders about her desire for revenge, but what about Vaan's opinion? Basch's? Penelo's? I want to know what everyone's thinking!

You see what Basch had to say about it right after they meet the Occuria; his general opinion was that it wasn't right to obliterate millions for the sake of revenge. We see what Vaan thinks about it at the top of the Pharos when Ashe is thinking about whether she should use the treaty blade to claim the weapon she needed to win the war or to use the sword of kings to destroy the sun cryst and prevent the possibility of such a dangerous weapon being used in the future. As for Penelo i can't remember if she actually spoke out against it, I just assumed she shared the same opinion as the rest.
They could have explored Ashe's desire for revenge a bit more, but I still think it was handle fairly well.

I kept thinking that Vayne was going to be the 'decoy' villain, (eg. Rufus, Edea, Brahne(?)) that gets offed two thirds of the way through the story to be replaced by the real, world-destroying villain, which in this case I guess would be the Occuria. Alas, the Occuria turned out to be nothing more than a quaint sideshow, with Vayne doing a complete ideological 180 (what happened to 'I will protect Dalmasca' and wanting Ashe to work with him for peace?) and hulking out on Nethicite.

Vayne never wanted peace with Dalmasca or to help Ashe, all he ever wanted from start to finish was to take complete control over Dalmasca and to force Rozzaria into war in which we was going to defeat and subjugate Rozzaria as well. In short all Vayne wanted to do was seize power for himself. He gave a couple pretty little speeches, but this was done to keep the normal citizens of Dalmasca happy and controllable.

It didn't help that you only actually meet Vayne face-to-face just before you kill him, even though you spend most of the game 'we must defeat Vayne to save Dalmasca'. It's like you only need to kill him for purely political reasons aka. he's in the way of Ashe getting her throne back. It reminds me of an FFXIII review that said 'you can't hate villains who are only fighting you because you're breaking the law', except here it's 'you can't hate villains you are only fighting 'cause they're in the way of your goals'.

The main characters are fighting Vayne so that their home can again regain its Independence and freedom. They are also fighting Vayne to prevent him for starting a war and using weapons that would destroy countless lives.

Personally I can see why so many people were less than thrilled about Vayne, despite the fact that he's my favorite villian not only in the series but the whole franchise. Throughout most of the game he's just a normal guy and acts more like a corrupt politician (which he is a politician). Most of the other villains in the series are portrayed as larger than life and have super magical powers that could bring down whole nations; Vayne on the other hand is just a typical political figure plotting and scheming to get ahead; hes very down played throughout most of the game and they don't do much to build him up either like they did with a villain like Sephiroth for VII.

It's not until at the very end when the party finally faces him that he ascends to that larger than life status of the other villains. To be honest in the last three battles with him it is in my opinion the most epic final battle in the series in terms of music, presentation, visuals, and story, and Vayne really steals the show at the end. At least in my opinion.

Still, it's all opinions. Maybe I missed something subtle, but I like heroes you can root for and villains you can really, really hate.

If you did miss anything that's understandable, as much as I love this game it's not perfect. They really should have had a story log for this game, very much like they did for Tactics, that way players wouldn't miss so much or so they don't forget.

And if you didn't miss anything and the characters just didn't do it for you, that's fine too; we all have our likes and dislikes.

[Clo]

I guess we can sum some of this up by saying that if you make things subtle enough, they fail to make any sort of impression. Some people appreciated the subtlely of the game, and others just, well, failed to be impressed by any lines of dialogue being thrown at them (in a grander sense -- the dialogue actually was great. Great translation!).

Because as I was reading your response to YTDN, I remember those plotlines and what the characters did, yet I remember the scenes being so vague and there being so little dialogue that even though I was getting an impression of character development and what not, it just wasn't enough to really move me in any way. Maybe it was just the right amount for some.

[YTDN]

I guess we can sum some of this up by saying that if you make things subtle enough, they fail to make any sort of impression. Some people appreciated the subtlely of the game, and others just, well, failed to be impressed by any lines of dialogue being thrown at them (in a grander sense -- the dialogue actually was great. Great translation!).

Because as I was reading your response to YTDN, I remember those plotlines and what the characters did, yet I remember the scenes being so vague and there being so little dialogue that even though I was getting an impression of character development and what not, it just wasn't enough to really move me in any way. Maybe it was just the right amount for some.

Pretty much. I actually really liked the characters, and thought that the premise, though a little cliche, could sprout something wonderful. Personally, I'm the type that gets into a story for the theatrics- that's why I really liked the dialogue and voice acting, and especially villains like Cid and the Judges, because they chewed the scenery every time they were on. The main characters had a good basis that would be awesome if explored, but since the game decided to go for a subtle route I never felt that.

I guess what I'm saying is that subtlety and 'realistic' character development is for reality- if you're going to write a story where all the characters sounded like they swallowed the Complete Works of Shakespeare, then have them ham it up.

[Wolf Kanno]

You know, I never had a problem seeing the character development in this game or getting the feeling from the characters. Frankly, I feel the characterization and development of the cast was far more refreshing and tasteful than the soap opera stuff the series was heading towards.

Vaan has the greatest "coming of age" story I've seen in the series and maybe even in RPGs. Why? Cause he doesn't actually transform into some heroic figure that saves the day and leads the troops into battle at the end of the day, instead he is still a boy, filled with dreams and naivety but much more mature and level headed than when he started. Watching him grow out of his blind hatred for the empire by meeting Larsa, having his ideals of a black and white reality shattered after meeting Basch and learning the truth about his brother Reks, and even him seeing what hatred does to people as he watches Lady Ashe's journey. He even gets a bit of a brotherly relationship from Balthier who Vaan begins to idealize as a Sky Pirate (and continues to do seeing as how he grew up to be a mini-Balthier in FFTA2) so I feel he had a wealth of character development and went through multiple changes which is rare in this medium.

Penelo's kidnapping and subsequent time with Larsa allowed her not only to see that her views of Archadia were wrong but bridged the gap that would allow Vaan and Ashe to reconsider where their desires for revenge were unfounded. I am most happy with her cause she breaks away from the hyper energetic girl archetype that has plagued the series since FFV with Krile... Instead she is mature and thoughtful but still willing to have fun and smack Vaan around when he's being an idiot (like Eruyt Village). Her romantic relationship with Vaan is cute, especially since its not a major element of the plot or her development. OMG! A female character whose sole role in the plot is not to hook up with the guys and actually has a satisfying existence outside of romance? Who da thunk it.

Balthier hides behind his greed and devil may care attitude but as the party heads towards Archades and even when they try to obtain the Nethicite, he begins to be haunted by his past with his father and the madness the stone had brought to him. Balthier proves to be an eccentric and charming fellow who turns away money and status so he can live the life of an outlaw who was free to do as he pleases. I feel his conversation with Lady Ashe on Phon Coast where he reveals the fact he used to be a Judge and the truth about his father Cid was a touching moment for a guy who up until this point was more of a comic relief character. His interactions with Cid are both amusing and in the case of the Pharos, quite touching. Not to mention the man steals the show in the game's climatic ending when he reveals his badass criminal reputation is all talk (course we figured that out long before but still it was nice seeing him act upon it). Its no wonder he's one of the most popular characters in the game and now even in the series.

Fran, dealing with her sister's and her abandonment of her home. Convincing her younger sister to stay behind while also coming to an understanding with her elder sister. Fran just shows more of the backdrop of things that are happening as talking to any Viera outside of the Wood reveals the restlessness and migration of the race into the new modern world. Her story touches upon the historical events of Western Expansion into tribal territories. But what also makes Fran an enjoyable character is the relationship she has with Balthier. The two have great chemistry and its mostly shown through body language and each knowing what the other needs (well mostly Fran saving Balthier) but their actions and body and interactions show a real level of trust. I never doubted why these two were partners, it was simply obvious by how well they worked together. This has been lacking the series as well, rarely do characters in the FF series exhibit this kind of camaraderie with each other, instead choosing to be a big family usually when they should be more professional (I'm looking at you SeeD). Her ending with Balthier was especially touching and even comical with their wicked banter together.

Basch is just awesome, he's a great leader and total badass in the opening of the game, especially when he saves Reks life from that mob by himself. He gets his reputation ruined by his brother no less, is considered an outlaw and an outcast in his new homeland, gets rejected by the resistance, is betrayed by his best friend, and is treated like dirt by the woman he has sworn to protect. Yet, despite it all, he shoulders the burden and keeps moving forward, he doesn't complain about how terrible his plight is, rather he continues to try to change things for the better on his terms. This is so welcomed after years of listening to heroes trying to find themselves and complaining about how powerless they are, to actually have someone who just rolls with the punches and sticks to his own beliefs. Could you imagine how much crap Terra and Cloud could have accomplished if they had half of Basch's resolve? His dialogue with Ashe as he tries to convince her to move from her path of revenge shows his wisdom, his argument with Vossler as he reveals his betrayal shows his integrity, and even his two confrontations with his brother show that Basch is the very definition of a hero with absolute resolve. The man fights for Ashe and Dalmasca so he can prevent the repeat of his own homeland's fall. He's a fascinating human being and its a shame he was removed as the central hero cause he has all the qualities to be one of the greatest heroes in the FF series.

Lady Ashe is the soul of the games plot, her tale of tragedy and her quest for revenge is the plot of XII. Despite all this hoo haw about XII being plot driven with no character development, I feel you missed the big picture, the story isn't so much about Vayne and the Occurians as it is about Ashe's journey to decide between her personal desire for revenge or her selfless duty to her people. She is manipulated by the Occurians to get revenge and then later manipulated by Vayne to go against the Occurians as he and Cid set them on the path to Giruvegan and the Pharos. Most female heroines are meek and gentle with this bull "inner strength" people keep yapping about which mostly amounts to them doing something incredibly stupid but its supposedly "alraight, cause they had good intentions" why not call it like it is and say they were being a stupid utilitarian bitch and then leave them to get themselves killed. Ashe transcends all this cause she is a B-I-A-T-C-H with a capital B and would leave you to die the moment you became a nuisance to her. This was incredibly refreshing and made her a much more interesting character as we watched her constantly be faced with justifications for revenge as the Empire slaughter innocents and ruin people's lives. Yet her time watching Vaan, Penelo, and Larsa together, talking with Vaan about his lost of his brother Reks, Vossler's revenge and Basch's nobility to stand by her despite her treating him like trash, the revelations of Balthier's past and watching Fran's race face the change in history for Ivalice; after all that, Ashe begins to see that the world isn't simply about her self and revenge would not ease her lost. This is the whole point of XII's plot, its Ashe's journey.


Vayne is a great antagonist because he hides his ambitions behind his noble crusade to overthrow the Occurians. As AJMan put it, Vayne doesn't do the whole "badass villain of evil" he's not meant to be larger than life but just another human being trying to etch his name on history and do what he feels is best (for him). Yet part of me feels he does have some level of nobility within him, if he truly believed only in power, he would have killed his brother Larsa so he would have no challenge to the throne but rather he shows on more than one occasion to care for him. His relationship and conversations with Cid show both of them as more human than the stereotypical mad men of other villains in their situations. Yet, Vayne does a lot for himself, he murders his father to get the throne, frames the Senate so he can dissolve it and transform the Senate into a true authoritarian imperial government, manipulates Ashe and the party into a confrontation with the Occurians by killing the Gran Kiltias who could have proven Lady Ashe's heritage, has Cid lead them to Giruvegan so Ashe could learn the truth about her ancestor and Vayne's ambitions and then the final confrontation with the Occurians at the Pharos which destroyed the Occurians main source of influence on humanity and also dispersed the power needed to get the Sky Fortress Bahamut up and running and allow him to conquer Rozarrio and eventually the world. Even Kuja and Sephiroth had to work a bit harder to pull this level of planning off and Vayne does it quite effortlessly. The guy even has one of the coolest final boss forms (and his second form is quite possibly the funniest Hulk-Vayne SMASH!!!), and yet fans even debate if his actions were completely for selfish gain. Its amusing to see that Vayne's death allowed his brother to take over the Empire and gave him the ability to set things right with no obstacles in his way... Whereas people debate what Ultimecia's motive even was, XII fans actually debate what Vayne's true intentions were, whether his villainous act were for the sake of humanity and his brother or whether he was simply using the battle of the Occurians as an excuse to gain power. Either way, I felt he was a great antagonist and villain.

So looking at all I've written, no I can't agree with the idea that XII didn't have character development or even soul. Most of what I've written is just paraphrasing of events and details so I felt the game actually had quite a bit going on with the cast, it just cut out the silly angst that people mistake for emotion when its really just bad acting and writing.

The world itself is filled with tons of stories and elements, from learning about Reks by meeting the people whose lives he touched like Jovy, from the rebuilding of the Mt. Bur-Omisace and the story of Ieeha and Relj as which gives a conclusion on the temples fate as well as a touching story of loss, helping the Cactoid family in the desert, the Archadian soldier who falls in love with Rabanastre, the Cockatrice hunt, the rich family and the mystery of the Black object in the sky, resolution on the tales of War chief Supinelu of the Garif Tribe, the moogle engineers, the quest to help the Nu Muo seal off the great evils of Nabudis, the Viera looking for her soulmate, the moogle who chooses you out for looking at him funny as he drinks alcohol, the pirates of Balfoheim debating about the future of the city after Reddas disappears, even discovering the Hunt Club and exploring the social structures of Archades.

The world is living and breathing, all you have to do is stop and smell the roses once in awhile and see how much thought and effort was put into everything. You missed half the game if you didn't just wander around a bit and talk to a few interesting people. Every place and monster has a bit of history to it and unlike a certain previous effort, its left to the player's discretion to learn this information instead of listening to long winded speeches like the world has a couple of people whose role is to be your parties tour guide. The mythological legend about the origin of Ivalice is smurfing awesome not to mention all the winks and nudges to previous FFs and Matsuno titles (Spoony Bards and Merlose the Sage to name a few). Maybe Ivalice was not everyone's cup of tea but this game crafted an FF world that has more history and elements going on than most of the FFs combined.

This is simply my two cent's on the whole subject. We all have our own strong opinions but as far as I'm concerned this simply comes down to personal preference and taste, there really are no "facts" to say this game was better or worse than any other and that simply goes without saying to games as a whole.

[Breine]

Dayum, this thread has some massive walls of text!

I'll just mention that I think FFXII is a good game and leave it at that, 'kay.

[ANGRYWOLF]

I heard all that"it's a breathe of fresh air stuff" before on another forum back when the game first came out and it failed to move me then..and still I don't see it.
I just don't see it.

Maybe it's too subtle for me..as someone else pointed out maybe some of us can't see the subtlities of the game.Maybe some of us want those larger then life characters.

We don't want sudued characters who are overwhelmed by the opposition ..by the judges and Cid when they had scenes.
I am not sure the subtle characterization of the heroes is deliberate either.I always felt it was due to Matusno's departure.That if he had stayed he would have done more to make the characters more dynamic like he did in FF Tactics.

You look at historical characters from Grant and Lee, to Rommel and Patton...I want my game characters to have this driving will and my villains as someone pointed out in another thread to be very bad..Sephiroth/Kefka/Kuja bad and Vayne just comes up way way short of those guys imo.

After some of the excessive debating on the FFXIII thread..which I agree that we don't want to go to the negativity there..rotfl..and we can have a more polite debate here..rotfl...
It all does come down to opinion.

We all have our preferences about what an dynamic rpg should have and in particular what an FF should have.I want my FFs to be dynamic and epic and FFXII falls way short of the mark for me on what I perceive an FF should be.