The great video game 'crumple' of 201x?

[ljkkjlcm9]

According to VG Chartz the sales are only 280,000. On an install base of almost 71 million.

The fact that it is a well respected game amongst the 'hardcore' game community and fails miserably on the Wii is exactly what I am talking about. (Anyone who reads and posts on sites about video games easily qualifies as hardcore for the purpose of this exercise)

And the fault of this is all these "hardcore" gamers that bought multiple systems (like I did) but then they don't support the games that deserve it on the Wii, like Muramasa. Don't bring Madworld into it, because that game wasn't worth the full asking price from any review. However the budget price helped it sell decently, because otherwise it wasn't worth it.

Essentially, people complain about no hardcore games on the Wii, but then they don't but the games on the Wii.

Oh, and Monster Hunter Tri had sales of 1.37 million, last update Jan 21st... before it was even released in the US.
(As a reference, Tales of Symphonia sold 1.1 million on the GC, and was considered a huge success)

THE JACKAL

[Slothy]

Essentially, people complain about no hardcore games on the Wii, but then they don't but the games on the Wii.

I'm not going to argue this point really because neither of us would have any real data on the breakdown of Wii owner demographics. But I do want to say something perhaps as a bit of food for thought; have you ever considered that the inability for so-called hardcore games to sell may say more about the kind of people who bought the Wii than it does hardcore gamers.

I complain about the lack of hardcore games on the Wii myself, but I also don't own one, largely because there's nothing there that appeals to me enough to buy the console for it especially given my hatred for the controller. It's sort of a chicken and the egg thing since you can't bring in hardcore gamers without good hardcore games, but how do you justify making them if there's no perceived market there.

If I were going to blame anything for the lack of hardcore games and support from hardcore gamers though, I'd blame it on Nintendo seemingly turning their backs on hardcore gamers in a lot of ways. From the focus on easier to use motion controls and simpler games, to wave after wave of marketing targeting casual gamers, and endless amounts of shovelware getting a license to be released, I can't fault any hardcore gamer who passes on the Wii because they feel like Nintendo could care less about them.

[Bolivar]

EDIT!!: April sales for games were abysmal and analysts are baffled at this, maybe we're just playing the damn games you all urged us to buy instead of buying new ones to replace the ones we haven't even beaten yet!!!! Smurfers!!! I love it!

Wow, Wolf is back, I love it!!! And he got a PS3!!!

The PS3, 360, and Wii from a gaming library standpoint, are little more than the Cube, PS2 , and X-Box with the same library of core games with new graphics. Could you really say MGS4 is radically different from MGS1? Especially when you compare them to their impacts on the console and the gaming industry? Not really. MGS4 is simply MGS1 with better graphics and controls and a few "gimmicky" abilites that MGS1 lacked but did MGS4 really radically change the series? No. Can we say the same of Halo, GTA, Gran Turismo, Smash Bros., God of War, and Zelda. Are they all completely original redesigns of their predecessors that are continuously pushing the industry forward or simply the original titles with a few extra features and some better graphics?

I'm going to try to keep this short and on point since you and Vivi got through a lot of it.

I can just ask - how many of those games have you actually played? I would absolutely say God of War is different - not just with the stuff going on in the scene, but an item system, weapon diversity, ways to manipulate enemies, and overall deeper combat which the series simply didn't have. A Gran Turismo demo/contest was released on PSN which showcased the new driving physics, and for a game which prided itself on realistic driving for over a decade, it did feel very different. Not to mention cockpit view which you will be able too look around with using the EyeToy

I can't comment on the 360, but there's been a lot of innovation on the PS3 among, but definitely within genres. MAG didn't just increase the player count, we've "finally achieved real time battlefield control..." (<- SNAKE!) with a tiered leadership infrastructure. Demon's Souls undoubtedly innovated the Action-RPG genre with the use of Havok physics but moreoso online play I haven't really seen anywhere else. Valkyira Chronicles did something for SRPG's which is a wonder it hasn't before. LBP's combination of an in-game editor and community incorporation of it in-game and out-of-it created something genuinely new.

We could even go into FPS like Bad Company 2 deconstructing the entire concept of the action set piece, or how Killzone 2 really changed how I think about FPS. I've been on BC2, MW2, and MAG lately, but going back to Killzone 2 was a painful experience because it plays so differently, it's something that hasn't been done before and it could not have been done without greater processing power of the PS3.

And while you said Heavy Rain is just like the old point-and-click adventures (it is) it's also similar to many different things, it's hard to say exactly what it is.

Have you played Valkyria Chronicles, Demon's Souls and Heavy Rain? If you have I'd really like to know your thoughts on them, just in general, but also for the sake of this thread.

[Wolf Kanno]

Warning: I'm working on three hours of sleep and dealing with my bitch of a boss all day, so my mind is gone right now but I'll do my best. Forgive my spelling and grammar mistakes I simply just don't care to fix any of them right now ( how's that any different whenever you do post WK?) Quiet you!!!

Rambling aside...

I wasn't really questioning whether you played it since I knew you had, only that it not changing much from MGS isn't the reaction I expect from someone who played the entire game at least once, let alone more times. My point was really only that I've never seen a game merge so many disparate play styles so well. I played through it several times like it was a third person shooter, a stealth game, siding with the various factions, etc. and each was a substantially different experience. You don't really get that in any game, so that it was done so well utterly floored me.

I felt the introduction of other game elements just didn't work for me, the gaining the rebels trust element always felt incredibly underwhelming and easy to garner and exploit, not to mention is sometimes made the game a bit too easy, as I was able to walk out in the open in some battlefields with little to worry about outside of stray fire.

I also felt the better emphasis on "run and gun" play destroyed the importance of stealth cause not making a mistake no longer held the same weight it did in previous installments. Granted its been going that way since MGS2 and lord knows my fave entry MGS3 made dealing with enemies much easier. I just kept getting annoyed that I would get caught and quickly kill the swarms of enemies coming after me and was even eventually able to just walk through areas guns of blazing. Stealth now sorta lost its importance cause its not like guns and ammo are not easy to come by in the game.

It was just one of those things where I felt the blending of genres didn't work for me. The boss battles were still MGS epic but the different stages never once impressed me or stood out with the exception of Prague which forced the player to do some kick ass film noir style stealth.

I agree with this statement up until you mention Natal. Because honestly, the biggest reason I see motion controls never working in any current form that they exist in is because of a lack of sufficient physical feedback. Our bodies and brains expect physical feedback when making the motions required of us for the purposes games ask of us but we never get it. Physical feedback is an integral part in reacting to swords clanging together, steering a car, or dribbling a ball but we get none of that feedback from Natal and almost none from the Wii-mote.

Let me clarify with Natal, its gaming application is debatable at this point but will find out once it actually launches but looking at just tech demos, I feel the technology has at least everyday applications as well, and part of me would be just stoked to see gaming create a technology that has everyday use. I like the idea of switching on consoles by motion and voice recognition, it utterly appeals to the little kid in me who grew up watching Star Trek: The Next Generation

I'll agree that the actual motions feel more natural and immersive, but that immersion has always been immediately broken for me because of the lack of physical feedback. Because without it, everything in Wii Sports was based as much on luck and randomly swinging the controller as anything else and Mario Kart Wii was utterly unplayable with the motion controls. I agree there's potential in some genres and game markets for motion control, but until they workout the problem of physical feedback I have no problem saying that I don't think it will ever reach it's potential.

Most Wii titles (maybe not Wii sports but certainly Zelda and NMH) actually do give a bit of force feedback to the player by using the Rumble technology we've all loved since the PS1 days. Most death blows and certain movements do have a bit of force feedback and it was actually Miyamoto who said Natal would fail cause it didn't have force feedback. I was completely blown away when my Wii mote started to ring in NMH cause an NPC had called my character and the game asked me to use it as a cell phone while I walked over to the stages boss. All the dialogue came exclusively through the Wii mote itself and I just thought to myself "Well aren't you a clever d$%@". Its been crap like that that has made me a little less skeptical about the Wii, and see it more as missed development opportunity.

I disagree actually. Were the developers not able to utilize the technology to make Heavy Rain look as good as it did and build the atmosphere as well as they did I don't think it would have worked as well. Not that lesser hardware can't make immersive games, but I honestly think that the sheer realism of it's settings helped to elevate the immersive qualities inherent in the gameplay.

While I agree that the level of detail adds depth to this particular style of game it doesn't change the fact it could have been exclusively a PC title. would also argue that the detail adds depth for its style but I wouldn't say its impossible to recreate a game like this from slightly older technology. The adventure game scene on the PC is filled with emotional roller coaster titles and only a few of them actually utilize realism on a scale similar to Heavy Rain while others utilize more surreal and extravagant art styles.

But for a much better example, I can really just name Portal. By no means is Portal a technical powerhouse, but it couldn't have been made ten years ago in the form it's in. Not only is there some complex physics going on with the portalless games anyway, but I don't think anything could have handled some of the workarounds they had to make to get the physics working through portals if they tried to do it ten years ago, and certainly not 15 or 20 years ago. And even if you don't think GTAIV is innovative (I don't think it is nor do I like it), but it's hard to say it didn't benefit from more power by creating a much more believable and immersive world. And a more recent example of Battlefield Bad Company 2; it literally wouldn't be the game it was without the massive environments, seamless environmental destruction and vehicles, all of which would be difficult or impossible to integrate so seamlessly on 5 year old hardware let alone ten year old hardware. I could probably come up with more examples of games that legitimately benefit from more power, but I just woke up and thinking is hard.

I m not saying that some incremental technology improvement are poor means of building games, rather I was saying that it shouldn't be a bad thing to explore new ways to play video games with new technology and really that's what Portal is, its not as elaborate as a new console with a specific controller but it utilized a new technology from a Physics engine that was built. So this goes in a lot of different directions really. Better hardware is not a bad thing, Im just annoyed with what feels like a slow growth rate of interesting games. Portal itself is a PC title and that in itself is an industry that's been making improvements on physics engines and stage layout for nearly fifteen years. The technology that made it came from a terribly slow process which is not a bad thing at all, I'm just saying that we'll never see the next gaming revolution like the 3D one at this pace.

I can't comment on all the FPS (or 3PS) titles cause frankly my issue with them is the same as yours with Motion Controllers, I get no real force feedback and the controller gets in the way of the simplicity of using guns (this is coming from someone who use to regularly shoot real firearms). Obviously, I don't play them and very few have ever caught my attention let alone hold it. This sorta alienates me from a good 3/4ths of the market it seems.

But really, I'm not trying to say that hardware is required to innovate, but it certainly removes barriers to innovation so developers can more easily realize their game whether it's an innovative masterpiece or an iterative step forward.

I completely agree with this but I sometimes feel that hardware both hinders and helps innovation. For every Portal, there is and army of samey WWII/space marine shooters, for every No More Heroes, there is an army of "Party Games" for the Wii, for every Halo, there is a mountain of better games (Hey, I'm allowed to slam Microsoft and Halo is just too easy...) I guess I'm ranting at the mountain of developers who lack imagination and are quick to make something pretty with little substance or cutesy and simple with no depth or skill required.

I won't disagree with you on that, but given the rise of the indie scene I think we're actually able to see the second coming of more innovative game design since game development is so much more accessible. That said, when it comes to innovation on consoles, I really don't think we're any worse off now than we were even on the SNES as far as innovation. I mean a lot of great games came out in that era, but how many can you think of that were truly innovative and didn't just make incremental steps in already established genres? I'm having trouble thinking of many right now.

I'm kinda hoping but I sometimes fear its going to be something that mostly stays in the realm of downloads and never make the major leaps into the consoles themselves. I feel this way about the handheld market as well cause I've been more impressed with stuff on the DS and PSP tin terms of creativity and just being really fun than on the consoles as of late yet I get frustrated that people like Square-Enix can release tripe like XIII for the consoles when they are releasing stuff like The World Ends With You, Song of Summoner, and surprisingly for me, Dissidia.

As foir the SNES, this sorta also brings me back to my point, the SNES was a great system and I love it but let's face it, it was the NES bigger and better. The 3D revolution came along and we were all wowed in the mid 90s. The generation that followed (Gamecube and Playstation 2) then became the new SNES/Genesis era with consoles that were basically the old consoles but better. Now we're in "the next generation" (sadly not Star Trek) and despite being quite a few years into I feel like its just a rehash of the last generation, on all consoles even. I guess I just feel ready for the next big thing and even though its not in the stars for motion controls, I feel it could have a powerful impact on the industry.

I can't blame you for getting through FFXIII and not wanting to touch a console (any console). It's pretty easy to lose any desire to play games after too much time with that.

But the PS3 has some legitimately awesome and creative titles even if not all of them are over flowing with innovation. I'd be happy to make some recommendations if you'd like (though that's probably best left outside of the thread).

Also, Portal is free on the PC and Mac until the 24th. If you haven't already then get it.

I didn't realize how much that game pissed me off until I had some time away from it and truly, I really did try to like it. I don't necessarily like coming off as the old guy who whines about the "good old days" but no, that game was just bad...

I've picked up Disgaea 3, MGS4, and Fallout 3 for the PS3 and I look forward to picking up Demon's Soul, Super Street Fighter 4, and Valkyrie Chronicles. The problem is my PS3 wish list is in direct conflict with the games I want for the DS and PSP that are coming out this summer and lord knows I still need to play through the crap load of PS2/GBA/DS/PSP games I've been collecting for the last year or two, so I've got a busy gaming schedule it seems...

You'll have to PM me where to get Portal cause I would enjoy playing it though I doubt my PC is up to spec cause it is in fact pretty old now that I think about it.

Wow, Wolf is back, I love it!!! And he got a PS3!!!

Finals kicked my ass this semester so I blame them on my incoherent ramblings in this thread. I really think I should have taken another week off to unwind before coming back here.

I'm going to try to keep this short and on point since you and Vivi got through a lot of it.

I can just ask - how many of those games have you actually played? I would absolutely say God of War is different - not just with the stuff going on in the scene, but an item system, weapon diversity, ways to manipulate enemies, and overall deeper combat which the series simply didn't have. A Gran Turismo demo/contest was released on PSN which showcased the new driving physics, and for a game which prided itself on realistic driving for over a decade, it did feel very different. Not to mention cockpit view which you will be able too look around with using the EyeToy

I can't comment on the 360, but there's been a lot of innovation on the PS3 among, but definitely within genres. MAG didn't just increase the player count, we've "finally achieved real time battlefield control..." (<- SNAKE!) with a tiered leadership infrastructure. Demon's Souls undoubtedly innovated the Action-RPG genre with the use of Havok physics but moreoso online play I haven't really seen anywhere else. Valkyira Chronicles did something for SRPG's which is a wonder it hasn't before. LBP's combination of an in-game editor and community incorporation of it in-game and out-of-it created something genuinely new.

We could even go into FPS like Bad Company 2 deconstructing the entire concept of the action set piece, or how Killzone 2 really changed how I think about FPS. I've been on BC2, MW2, and MAG lately, but going back to Killzone 2 was a painful experience because it plays so differently, it's something that hasn't been done before and it could not have been done without greater processing power of the PS3.

And while you said Heavy Rain is just like the old point-and-click adventures (it is) it's also similar to many different things, it's hard to say exactly what it is.

Have you played Valkyria Chronicles, Demon's Souls and Heavy Rain? If you have I'd really like to know your thoughts on them, just in general, but also for the sake of this thread.

I think there is a difference to a game playing different and feeling different sometimes and perhaps my issue here is that I'm not seeing the "playing different" but rather mostly a "feels different" but then again, I have a terrible habit of being too analytical and a deconstructionist in my titles, and I'm still bitter about XIII. As stated above, I will probably never know about the FPS titles you've listed or even the driving titles cause I frankly don't play those genres much or anymore at all.

I feel there is changes going on in the industry, obviously, it seems like its mostly happening in the genres I don't play sadly enough. I guess it feels to me like its finally time for something big to happen instead of these small little bumps in the road. I'm ready for a change cause while the details are getting better and better I do still question whether we've actually bared witness to a radical change in any genre in the last fifteen years. Maybe I should throw in the towel and final accepted I've become too jaded but its hard to think you can't enjoy something you love cause that doesn't really seem to be my case. Whatever, I'm probably still just burnt out from school and work.

I'll probably start a thread or add to them once I plays some of the games you've listed. I've got a lot on my plate and I still need to play through a few classics I've picked up like Beyond Good and Evil and Silent Hill 2. Course Shinobi is also begging me to play and I do need to finish DQVIII before this decade runs out.

[VeloZer0]

Bed is kind of trumping the long reply that this thread deserves, but there was one thing that just jumped out at me.
You talk about the NES->SNES just being a case of same but better, and PS1->PS3 the same phenomenon. I think that 'growing up' so to speak in the 2D to 3D revolution has made us a little spoiled in terms of what innovation to expect from gaming. The change from 2D to 3D could be seen as somewhat of a once in a lifetime deal. I think that expecting any sort of change and innovation comparable to what the mid to late 90s were is not fair to the present and future generation of games.

We were there, we enjoyed it, but we can't always hold the impact of adding a whole new dimension to games (literally) as something we continue to expect.

It is like someone who was around when they switched from black and white to color movies complaining the genre is experiencing stagnation. Only now, if 3D TV becomes popular, are we approaching a change of such magnitude.

[NorthernChaosGod]

Lol. Does anyone else find it funny that the graphical evolution would be from 2D to 3D to 3D?

If you don't, don't mind me, I'm exhausted.

[Slothy]

Let me clarify with Natal, its gaming application is debatable at this point but will find out once it actually launches but looking at just tech demos, I feel the technology has at least everyday applications as well, and part of me would be just stoked to see gaming create a technology that has everyday use. I like the idea of switching on consoles by motion and voice recognition, it utterly appeals to the little kid in me who grew up watching Star Trek: The Next Generation

I'm not going to comment on everything you said right now but that has more to do with not outright disagreeing with you on any of it. I can't say you're outright wrong, I think we just at worst disagree in our opinions on some things and at best agree on a lot of it in some way. For the most part I actually think we're on the same page but looking at it from different angles.

But I do want to clarify just what I mean when I'm talking about physical feedback in motion controls. Yes, the Wii gives some, and far more than Natal ever could, in the form of both holding a physical object and some rumble. My problem is that neither of those comes close to replicating the physical experience my brain expects. Playing Mario Kart Wii with the motion controls drove me crazy because there was no feedback aside from visual to let me know how far I was really turning sometimes (and the motion lag only made the disconnect worse but that's another problem entirely). There's also the fact that I could keep turning even if I couldn't. If I were to side swipe a wall in my car, aside from feeling it through the body of the car, that steering wheel is going to jerk. Actual racing wheels do stuff like this really well, and my brain expects it when mimicking a familiar motion like that but it's not there and I'm immediately pulled out of it. I can extend the analogy to just about anything; if I'm simulating a sword fight with the Wii-mote it's not going to stop moving through the air when I hit my opponents sword, shield, body or whatever else. At best I'll get a rumble telling me I've connected, but I'm still following through with no resistance and I'm pulled out of the experience again. By trying to mimic familiar or expected situations realistically, it actually becomes less immersive (and accurate) because my brain isn't getting the feedback it not only expects, but requires.

I know others may be bothered by this to varying degrees, many obviously are less bothered by it than me, but I don't think I can jump on board the motion control train in games until they are able to get around this.

Edit:

I've picked up Disgaea 3, MGS4, and Fallout 3 for the PS3 and I look forward to picking up Demon's Soul, Super Street Fighter 4, and Valkyrie Chronicles. The problem is my PS3 wish list is in direct conflict with the games I want for the DS and PSP that are coming out this summer and lord knows I still need to play through the crap load of PS2/GBA/DS/PSP games I've been collecting for the last year or two, so I've got a busy gaming schedule it seems...

I'm not really sitting by my PS3 collection right now and I've only been up for about an hour so god help me if I forget anything awesome. You're off to a good start already and I would have recommended Demon's Souls, SSF4, and Valkyria Chronicles anyway. The Uncharted titles are an easy recommendation for me. Great 3rd person shooters/adventure games, well written and just a lot of fun to play. I'm not sure if you are generally interested in 3rd person shooters since I know you don't play FPS games much, but I would recommend at least renting the first one (unless the demo is still on the PSN, in which case save your money). Little Big Planet is a no brainer. Also check out Blaz Blu, Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo HD Remix, Mega Man 9 and 10, Fat Princess is good fun as well, Heavy Rain, Echochrome Mirror's Edge if you haven't played it on another system (it's not really an FPS and is easily one of the most immersive titles I've ever played. Hell, it's one of the best games I've ever played. If you want innovation then this is a good one), and finally, try out Dead Space if you played and enjoyed RE4. It's not very scary if you ask me, but it was a better game than RE4 (which I despised).

I realize that's a lot of stuff to check out, especially with a full plate of other titles, but there's no harm in a list of titles to keep in mind for the future.

[Bolivar]

Finals kicked my ass this semester so I blame them on my incoherent ramblings in this thread. I really think I should have taken another week off to unwind before coming back here.

I think a lot of us can relate to that, so don't worry, incoherent ramblings are when these discussions are at their best!!!

I feel there is changes going on in the industry, obviously, it seems like its mostly happening in the genres I don't play sadly enough. I guess it feels to me like its finally time for something big to happen instead of these small little bumps in the road. I'm ready for a change cause while the details are getting better and better I do still question whether we've actually bared witness to a radical change in any genre in the last fifteen years. Maybe I should throw in the towel and final accepted I've become too jaded but its hard to think you can't enjoy something you love cause that doesn't really seem to be my case. Whatever, I'm probably still just burnt out from school and work.

I'll probably start a thread or add to them once I plays some of the games you've listed. I've got a lot on my plate and I still need to play through a few classics I've picked up like Beyond Good and Evil and Silent Hill 2. Course Shinobi is also begging me to play and I do need to finish DQVIII before this decade runs out.

Definitely do that. BUT DAMN those are some serious games in the way, I can only imagine how much time you have left in DQVIII and if you're referring to the PS2's Shinobi, that's quite an experience all by itself.

As far as real radical change, I don't know if I would even go that far. But we went through the golden age of PSOne RPG's without any radical changes and that was fine with us... there's more of that going around and it seems your list of current and soon purchases cover a lot of that. I actually need to consider Disgaea myself...

[Wolf Kanno]

Bed is kind of trumping the long reply that this thread deserves, but there was one thing that just jumped out at me.
You talk about the NES->SNES just being a case of same but better, and PS1->PS3 the same phenomenon. I think that 'growing up' so to speak in the 2D to 3D revolution has made us a little spoiled in terms of what innovation to expect from gaming. The change from 2D to 3D could be seen as somewhat of a once in a lifetime deal. I think that expecting any sort of change and innovation comparable to what the mid to late 90s were is not fair to the present and future generation of games.

We were there, we enjoyed it, but we can't always hold the impact of adding a whole new dimension to games (literally) as something we continue to expect.

It is like someone who was around when they switched from black and white to color movies complaining the genre is experiencing stagnation. Only now, if 3D TV becomes popular, are we approaching a change of such magnitude.

You know, I disagree but I can understand where people get this feeling. I just look at how far technology has gone in the last 50 years and I have a hard time believing its only going to get incrementally better than this, obviously, I do agree that perhaps in terms of audio and visuals we may have reached the zenith that people dreamed of years ago but this is why I'm looking at the next gaming revolution being about how we interact with gaming as opposed to a visual medium.

This is why I do feel motion controls might be that next step but really I would say its interactive gaming as a whole. I remember back in 06, when Sony was showing game previews for stuff on the PS3, they had a game where the player actually was holding a conversation with the characters in the game cause it was sorta of a Charlie's Angel kinda deal and I remember being pretty darn impressed at the idea of a game the player can actually interact with on a level that didn't feel totally artificial. This is the kind of stuff I think might be leading us to the next step in gaming. The Eye Toy to some feels like a gimmicky toy and though I've never personally had much enjoyment or interest in its titles, I do hope Sony continues to explore it cause it really feels like a piece of hardware that might take of if the right gaming idea came along with it.

I think believing that something like a gaming revolution on par with the 3D revolution of the 90's is a once in a lifetime deal just seems a bit silly (no offense) and really we can't say that motion controls are an utter failure and not the beginning of a new gaming epoch cause frankly, the DS and Wii are still kicking ass and everyone thought they would fail. Now Sony and Microsoft are trying to get in on the deal and this to me is a very good thing cause I do feel a major part of the Wii's problem is that it doesn't have any real competition. Its a gaming platform yes, but one that offers an experience the other two systems' can't really give you until now. So with that, I kinda hope Sony and Microsoft take the technology a bit more seriously and force everyone to bring their A-game.

But I do want to clarify just what I mean when I'm talking about physical feedback in motion controls. Yes, the Wii gives some, and far more than Natal ever could, in the form of both holding a physical object and some rumble. My problem is that neither of those comes close to replicating the physical experience my brain expects. Playing Mario Kart Wii with the motion controls drove me crazy because there was no feedback aside from visual to let me know how far I was really turning sometimes (and the motion lag only made the disconnect worse but that's another problem entirely). There's also the fact that I could keep turning even if I couldn't. If I were to side swipe a wall in my car, aside from feeling it through the body of the car, that steering wheel is going to jerk. Actual racing wheels do stuff like this really well, and my brain expects it when mimicking a familiar motion like that but it's not there and I'm immediately pulled out of it. I can extend the analogy to just about anything; if I'm simulating a sword fight with the Wii-mote it's not going to stop moving through the air when I hit my opponents sword, shield, body or whatever else. At best I'll get a rumble telling me I've connected, but I'm still following through with no resistance and I'm pulled out of the experience again. By trying to mimic familiar or expected situations realistically, it actually becomes less immersive (and accurate) because my brain isn't getting the feedback it not only expects, but requires.

I know others may be bothered by this to varying degrees, many obviously are less bothered by it than me, but I don't think I can jump on board the motion control train in games until they are able to get around this.

I do feel a lot of it has to do with you personally, cause I can't say I've had the same issue with the possible exception of Mario Kart but it actually feels more like an arcade racer to me which also has shoddy unrealistic controls so I'm not as disturbed by it as you seem to be. Oddly enough, I tend to tense my muscles up and cut many of my blows short in anticipation of hitting something which helps create a sensation of feedback as though I'm knocking into things. Of course this is a habit from years of Tae Kwon Do where I actually had to visualize imaginary opponents or when I sparred against some of the younger kids in my class. Maybe that's what allows me to get so caught up in the games. I'm pre-conditioned

Also, despite the feedback not being realistic, I still argue that there is something abit more immersive about actually re-enacting the motions of the game when you do something. Mashing the X button on something like Elder Scrolls to do sword slashes feels really flat and distant to me, like I logically can't fathom one action leading to another action whereas slashing the sword in Zelda just feels a bit more satisfying. Fake yes, but I argue that its still a bit more satisfying when done correctly.

I'm not really sitting by my PS3 collection right now and I've only been up for about an hour so god help me if I forget anything awesome. You're off to a good start already and I would have recommended Demon's Souls, SSF4, and Valkyria Chronicles anyway. The Uncharted titles are an easy recommendation for me. Great 3rd person shooters/adventure games, well written and just a lot of fun to play. I'm not sure if you are generally interested in 3rd person shooters since I know you don't play FPS games much, but I would recommend at least renting the first one (unless the demo is still on the PSN, in which case save your money). Little Big Planet is a no brainer. Also check out Blaz Blu, Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo HD Remix, Mega Man 9 and 10, Fat Princess is good fun as well, Heavy Rain, Echochrome Mirror's Edge if you haven't played it on another system (it's not really an FPS and is easily one of the most immersive titles I've ever played. Hell, it's one of the best games I've ever played. If you want innovation then this is a good one), and finally, try out Dead Space if you played and enjoyed RE4. It's not very scary if you ask me, but it was a better game than RE4 (which I despised).

I realize that's a lot of stuff to check out, especially with a full plate of other titles, but there's no harm in a list of titles to keep in mind for the future.

I already have the Mega Man games for the Wii. Despite loving Guilty Gear and playing through this game a ton, I can't get into Blaz Blue for some reason. I may check out Mirror's Edge and Fat Princess and despite my dislike of FPS titles, I plan to check out Bio Shock as well cause the game has fascinated me since before its release. I may rent or borrow Dead Space cause it also caught my attention. I also hope to play through Assassin's Creed series. I may check out Uncharted as well. I need to hook up the PS3 and download some demos now that I have some free time to enjoy them. I am even willing to give GoW another try. I should also track down Folklore cause the premise of the game sounds interesting. hanks for the suggestions.

Definitely do that. BUT DAMN those are some serious games in the way, I can only imagine how much time you have left in DQVIII and if you're referring to the PS2's Shinobi, that's quite an experience all by itself.

Sega knows how to make them and I love having tanks that bleed

I actually didn't get terribly far in DQVIII before Persona (PS1) and Dissidia came out and dropped the game into my bottom list. I have issues with the DQ series so this is sort of normal for me. Believe me, I have a ton more including Suikoden Tactics, God Hand, Front Mission IV, Sky Gunner, and not to mention I picked up my own copies of Sly Cooper and the Onimusha games. I took advantage of some great sales and literally doubled my PS2 collection in a few months and got some even weirder titles to boot.

As far as real radical change, I don't know if I would even go that far. But we went through the golden age of PSOne RPG's without any radical changes and that was fine with us... there's more of that going around and it seems your list of current and soon purchases cover a lot of that. I actually need to consider Disgaea myself...

I feel RPGs are also starting to evolve a bit. WRPG's are starting to use some forms of turn based combat hidden in their action oriented gameplay and story and character are starting to become more and more prevalent so it seems to me that what's been making the genre thrive recently has been them taking elements from JRPGs.

The few really good JRPGs I've played in the last ten years are either unique to themselves (Suikoden) or are starting to blend elements from other genres into themselves (Persona 3 and 4). If Nier and Persona 3/4 are any indication of things to come, I would imagine that this is what may happen to the JRPG in the future. They are going to start blending into other genres and they may also go the FFXII route and start utilizing more WRPG traits such as empowering the player more to affect the story. They just need to strike a fine balance so they don't feel too much like WRPGs and stick to a strong story. It will be a balancing act for awhile.

I also do recommend the Disgaea series, its a great SRPG series but what really sets it apart is just its wacky humor and wonderful cast of misfits. Its really hard to hate the casts of these games unless you are just one of those super serious types that can't stand a little wackiness and humor in your games. Even the combat takes part of the sheer absurdness factor of these games and its beautiful. Pick up a copy when you get the chance. I mean come on! Exploding Demon Penguins dood! (which reminds me, I need to pick up the Prinny game for the PSP)

[Bolivar]

I actually didn't get terribly far in DQVIII before Persona (PS1) and Dissidia came out and dropped the game into my bottom list. I have issues with the DQ series so this is sort of normal for me. Believe me, I have a ton more including Suikoden Tactics, God Hand, Front Mission IV, Sky Gunner, and not to mention I picked up my own copies of Sly Cooper and the Onimusha games. I took advantage of some great sales and literally doubled my PS2 collection in a few months and got some even weirder titles to boot.

That's a loooot of games, but I know what you mean, it's a good thing to expand your library, especially with weird games, I'm sure it's only going to get easier here on out for the PS2.

As far as real radical change, I don't know if I would even go that far. But we went through the golden age of PSOne RPG's without any radical changes and that was fine with us... there's more of that going around and it seems your list of current and soon purchases cover a lot of that. I actually need to consider Disgaea myself...

I feel RPGs are also starting to evolve a bit. WRPG's are starting to use some forms of turn based combat hidden in their action oriented gameplay and story and character are starting to become more and more prevalent so it seems to me that what's been making the genre thrive recently has been them taking elements from JRPGs.

The few really good JRPGs I've played in the last ten years are either unique to themselves (Suikoden) or are starting to blend elements from other genres into themselves (Persona 3 and 4). If Nier and Persona 3/4 are any indication of things to come, I would imagine that this is what may happen to the JRPG in the future. They are going to start blending into other genres and they may also go the FFXII route and start utilizing more WRPG traits such as empowering the player more to affect the story. They just need to strike a fine balance so they don't feel too much like WRPGs and stick to a strong story. It will be a balancing act for awhile.

I also do recommend the Disgaea series, its a great SRPG series but what really sets it apart is just its wacky humor and wonderful cast of misfits. Its really hard to hate the casts of these games unless you are just one of those super serious types that can't stand a little wackiness and humor in your games. Even the combat takes part of the sheer absurdness factor of these games and its beautiful. Pick up a copy when you get the chance. I mean come on! Exploding Demon Penguins dood! (which reminds me, I need to pick up the Prinny game for the PSP)[/QUOTE]

I actually don't know about the WRPG thing. Many fans of the original Fallout games complained about how Bethesda was taking a franchise they didn't originally work on and basically turn it into a shooter to sell to the console crowd. You can still melee the whole game (I think), and the auto-targeting system is more useful than actually trying to play it like a shooter, but still. Also, Mass Effect 2 nearly purged its RPG elements like it was a disease to the extent that it's mostly a shooter with dialogue trees. The Escapist actually has a funny ENN episode about it, I know you watch ZPunctuation, maybe you could check that out for FFVIII reference. It's just a phenomenon I see lately with First Person Shooters, Third Person Shooters, that companies have been making Western RPG's that look and play like First and Third Person Shooters.

I see what you're saying thought about JRPG's, Valkyria Chronicles kinda does that but I don't want to say anything because a) it's hard to explain and b) i don't want to augment your expectations.

I'm gonna give the Disgaea games a try hopefully sooner rather than later, the first two games are cheap digital on the Playstation Store for the PSP and I could always use new games on that. I wish the third one would go digital as well as they've done that with other PS3 games like Warhawk, SOCOM, and GT5Prologue, seems likt it would be a good candidate for that.