(SPOILER)Even if that means it was going to fall (which I'm not sure it did) it still doesn't mean that it wasn't a dream. Many argue that all the totem really presented was whether he believed it was a dream or reality. There is no reason why he couldn't have created the totem rule inside the dream level he was initially on - there is no reason why its behaviour must be some fundamental truthOriginally Posted by Ouch!
"They said this day would never come. They said our sights were set too high. They said this country was too divided, too disillusioned to ever come around a common purpose. But on this January night, at this defining moment in history, you have done what the cynics said we couldn't do." - Barack Obama.
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(SPOILER)Except that the film says it is a fundamental truth. If you want to go ahead and believe that everything was a dream and the totem is just part of his dream, then you're back to square one where you can't believe anything, and that's just useless.(SPOILER)Even if that means it was going to fall (which I'm not sure it did) it still doesn't mean that it wasn't a dream. Many argue that all the totem really presented was whether he believed it was a dream or reality. There is no reason why he couldn't have created the totem rule inside the dream level he was initially on - there is no reason why its behaviour must be some fundamental truth
(SPOILER)I don't think the film did say that. Have you got a quote?(SPOILER)Except that the film says it is a fundamental truth. If you want to go ahead and believe that everything was a dream and the totem is just part of his dream, then you're back to square one where you can't believe anything, and that's just useless.(SPOILER)Even if that means it was going to fall (which I'm not sure it did) it still doesn't mean that it wasn't a dream. Many argue that all the totem really presented was whether he believed it was a dream or reality. There is no reason why he couldn't have created the totem rule inside the dream level he was initially on - there is no reason why its behaviour must be some fundamental truth
I don't think it's useless at all. I think the whole point Nolan is trying to get across is that the dreams were important, they had meaning. Just because they weren't real didn't mean they were irrelevant. You saw the experiences the group went through together, the emotions, the struggle - even if it was but a dream, it was still more than 'just' a dream. In fact, if they hadn't known it was a dream, how would they tell it apart from reality?
"They said this day would never come. They said our sights were set too high. They said this country was too divided, too disillusioned to ever come around a common purpose. But on this January night, at this defining moment in history, you have done what the cynics said we couldn't do." - Barack Obama.
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Upon further reflecting, and seeing the disputes in this thread on its meaning, I'm going to have to take back what I said about the ending being even reasonably well done, despite my earlier criticism. It was trashy writing just meant to get some cheap gasps.
(SPOILER)Reasons why the ending was likely a dream:
1. There was no kick, and Cobb was under a sedative, so reality would becontradicting everything we were told in the movie.
2. The kids looked just like in the dream.
3. Things moved very fast, everything worked out perfectly.
4. The top spun a long-ass time.
Reasons why the ending likely was reality:
1. Cobb and (possibly) Seito otherwise magically teleporting onto the airplane, so a dream would be contradicting everything we were told in the movie.
2. Seito not being an old man when he "woke up." Though this could be explained by both Seitos being a projection, which would be consistent with the dream theory without contradicting everything.
3. The top wobbled for a split-second, and so a dream would be contradicting everything we were told in the movie.
Either way, something completely contradicted a basic premise of the movie. The very end, top-spinning part just seemed like a last-second thought just thrown in haphazardly to be cool and make people be all "whoa!" at the end, without going through the effort of making either possibility very coherent. It spun a while then wobbled to give the illusion of a major cliffhanger, but both possibilities aren't possible -- in fact, both possibilities are flatly impossible. The ending was rushed like the rest of the movie, only much more so to make these flaws more glaring.
EDIT: I will say that when I first came out of the theater, I concluded that it was a dream. I think that is still most likely. But I also think it was so haphazardly thrown together that the choice is pretty almost meaningless.
Last edited by Raistlin; 07-20-2010 at 12:19 AM.
(SPOILER)
1. I'm not arguing that there's some kind of magical teleportation. Instead I'm arguing that Cobb proceeded to kill himself in limbo. As a result, because he was still under the sedative, he would have probably just gone into a deeper dream state instead of returning to reality. In this dream state he created projections of his fellow team members.
2. The reason why Seito is young at the end is probably because he is a projection of Cobb's mind and not the real Seito.
3. A wobble doesn't mean that it was going to fall. And anyway, the top only reflects Cobb's belief as to whether he is in reality or not. If the film started inside a dream, what happens to the top is meaningless as it's merely a creation of his mind anyway (and so it only reflects his mind, not reality).
Overall I thought the ending was excellent and it really made you reflect on what was really going on. It opens up all sorts of alleyways of thought and by consequence a vast array of interesting discussions.
"They said this day would never come. They said our sights were set too high. They said this country was too divided, too disillusioned to ever come around a common purpose. But on this January night, at this defining moment in history, you have done what the cynics said we couldn't do." - Barack Obama.
clicky clicky clicky
(SPOILER)I think we're meant to draw our own conclusion about the ending. It seemed to be deliberately ambiguous to me. I prefer the 'happy' ending because:
A) Cobb deserves a break after all he's been through.
B) The other characters deserve to have real lives, not as projections of someone else's psyche.
My reasons are emotional I'll freely grant. The alternative interpretation is a real jerk-around moment. It was all meaningless! Poor you!
(SPOILER)1. So behind the scenes, Cobb goes and kills himself... which he knew wouldn't work. If you can figure out some believable reason for him to try that, then I concede to the possibility. You have to make some pretty big assumptions, though.
2. I conceded that was a possibility.
3. IIRC, Cobb stated in the movie that the top was his little icon thing, because in a dream it would spin perfectly forever. It sure seems like the little swivel at the end was put there just to fabricate this sort of mystery, because it sure seems like the majority of the rest of the available evidence points to the ending being a dream, hence my criticism of slipping in some manufactured mystery for some cheap gasps.
I actually liked the ending when I thought all signs pointed to it being a dream. But there are still some holes in that.
(SPOILER)1. So behind the scenes, Cobb goes and kills himself... which he knew wouldn't work. If you can figure out some believable reason for him to try that, then I concede to the possibility. You have to make some pretty big assumptions, though.
2. I conceded that was a possibility.
3. IIRC, Cobb stated in the movie that the top was his little icon thing, because in a dream it would spin perfectly forever. It sure seems like the little swivel at the end was put there just to fabricate this sort of mystery, because it sure seems like the majority of the rest of the available evidence points to the ending being a dream, hence my criticism of slipping in some manufactured mystery for some cheap gasps.
I actually liked the ending when I thought all signs pointed to it being a dream. But there are still some holes in that.
(SPOILER)1. I think he would have shot himself because he was carrying his gun and that was exactly the way he escaped from limbo last time. He may have assumed that this would lead him to blank out until he eventually returned to reality. It's possible that that really did happen. Or, on the other hand, he could've entered a new dream. I'm not exactly sure what the mechanics are in such a situation.
3. That's the point - it was Cobb who said it. So it was a truth to Cobb - and that's all the mattered. Since Cobb is the one dreaming, the way he perceives what the spinning totem means is all that matters. The reality of the mystery is not, in my eyes, about whether it is a dream or reality. The reality of the mystery is what Cobb perceives it to be. Perhaps the little swivel is a representation of the uncertainty in Cobb's mind?
"They said this day would never come. They said our sights were set too high. They said this country was too divided, too disillusioned to ever come around a common purpose. But on this January night, at this defining moment in history, you have done what the cynics said we couldn't do." - Barack Obama.
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Very very interesting.
EDIT: Except there is ONE thing that completely discredits this theory (SPOILER)and that is the fact that in every dream sequence Cobb is wearing his wedding ring. In every reality sequence he is not. In the final scene the ring can be seen.
Anyone up for the idea that the ending is Nolan's inception on the audience? With the spinning top he planted the smallest seed of doubt in peoples minds; an idea that the ending is not real. That idea has now blossomed into all the fanciful theories we are hearing....
Last edited by McLovin'; 07-20-2010 at 05:34 AM.
<span style="font: 16px Candara, Skia, Corbel, 'Trebuchet MS', Georgia, Geneva, Helvetica, Lucida, 'Lucida Grande', Arial, sans-serif; color: #38bcee;">I'd like to point out that (SPOILER)it's also entirely possible that the entire thing was a dream and Ariadne, Seito, and all the other characters are projections created by Cobb's mind to convince himself that he's in the real world. This seems less likely, but it's still possible.
In any case, the only way we know the top falling would be indicative of the real world is because Cobb said so. How does he know this? He never specifies. It could be entirely possible that he just believes the top falling would be indicative of the real world.
At any rate, I don't think we're supposed to know for certain whether the ending is a dream or not. It's pretty clearly intended to be ambiguous. The multitude of ways in which the film can be interpreted is one of the reasons I liked it so much.
And yes, the ending is definitely Nolan's inception on the audience.
Just saw it and it was a really great movie. Such a mind trip, especially the ending, which has sparked hot debates even in this forum!
Christopher Nolan is brilliant. To have completely conceptualized this movie (and Memento, another mind trip) takes a really complex mind. I can't even begin to spin my head around how he came up with some of this stuff.
The special effects were amazing too. Not Matrix-level mind blowing, but they were definitely innovative and stunning.
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I loved it.
I think if the movie had been edited a little tighter, cut maybe 20 minutes, it would have been absolutely perfect. Nolan had the same issue with the Dark Knight. About 20 minutes too long.
It was a wonderful mindtrip, like Memento was. And so SO beautiful to watch. That last dream world was so beautiful in its wispy, dusty, crumbliness. Exactly how I would picture the forgotten corners of a person's subconscious. The action sequences were great too, and Joseph Gordon-Levitt is so cute and badass at the same time. The whole cast was perfect I think.
Thumbs up!
It was a very good movie.
I just want to point out that(SPOILER) the top still spinning doesn't really matter. According to Cobb it was his wife's totem, not his. And it was also said that you can't let others touch your totem and risk them getting to know it. It was originally Moll's totem. Seito also touched it while they were in limbo.
Make of it what you will.
<PaperStar> live fast, die young, bad plefs do it well
(SPOILER)There's no reason to think that he did know killing himself wouldn't work. As far as he knew, it was what he did before to get out of Limbo, whether he really escaped or not. And if you didn't notice, when he got to Limbo where Saito was both were confused about what was happening. As though they had entered a dream and only half remembered where they were and why. If we assume the rest of the movie was real (as Cobb would even if it were a dream) it's entirely possible he wouldn't even remember that he was sedated. Or perhaps even more importantly, he may have waited the sedative out and then they killed themselves. In which case, the ending being a dream would suggest that he was never awake to begin with and killing himself in a dream to wake himself up never really worked to begin with.
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