To both lovers and haters of FF7

[Wolf Kanno]

It does look like anime mostly due to the original character designs and weird physics of its world (Cloud holding a sword nearly his own size is a good indicator as that is a visual cue taken from anime) not to mention its the most Japanese entry in the series with the exception of FFX (technically its more Okinawa but we'll skip the history lesson) with all of the cultural and visual clues. There are stores in Junon that are similar to how Japanese stores are run with ladies the greet you. Tons of English and foreign words thrown around cause they look cool and have no real meaning, the HoneyBee Inn is a Love Hotel, even the Turks take visual cues and characteristics of the Yakuza. Midgard and Junon are both very modern Japanese in appearance and and how they work. The anime designs don't help and the whole situation of the Lifestream is taken from Shinto/Buddhist beliefs as opposed to the New Age versions seen in the West.

Now to be fair to VII, its not the only "anime" FF. In truth I feel many of the early entries had anime elements as well they are just not as pronounced due to technology limitations. VI especially with many of its emotional portrayls by the sprites is taken from anime.

In terms of JRPG, the first traditional JRPG in the FF series would probably be FFII but IV to me is more of the first successful entry that made the idea stick. JRPGs are not simply anime inspired games, if its made in Japan its going to have an anime element somewhere cause that's just the culture. Sorta like how Western fantasy and Sci-Fi can't escape using classic conventions from LotR, Star Trek, and Star Wars in some form. What really makes a game a JRPG is that the game has a pre-set cast of characters and is very story driven with a linear road to completion. It can have open ended elements but for the most part, a JRPG tells a story whereas a WRPG is more about empowering the player and letting them write their character a story by partaking in a myriad of mini-stories set in the world. That, to my knowledge is what a JRPG is. It has nothing to do with visual design or inspiration though it can be argued that the genre has fully embraced anime and is now trying to recreate themselves almost as a playable anime series.

As for the dissertation on VII, I've been having this discussion for 13 years now, the only thing that has changed is my ability to explain it.

[Wolfen]

The anime style (which to you means JRPG(?)) ruined the series, but then you say you're not dissing JRPG?

I said that the people who hate VII think that the anime style ruined the series.

I don't hate VII. I just said it became more and more anime inspired is all.

[Tarquin]

Wow, lots of text walls

I've done all this before - but I am also going to buck your pigeon holes

I love FFVII, and the first I played was VI and I too love that - yet I have no time for FFX, and have subsequently played the first five (except 3 - which I'm working on getting round to) and I particularly enjoy IV, may even be my favourite

If I'm honest I think the fanboys wind a lot of people up - it's possible VII is the most liked game in terms of numbers, and may not have that many detractors proportionally, but the sheer fact that so many people drone on about it even now probably really annoys those who don't enjoy it - so we have a hell of a lot less whingeing about VIII, despite, I would guess, a lot more people disliking it

Personally I think it's success was down to pitch perfect timing at the beginning of the PS era introducing the mainstream to story-telling within games

that, and cross-dressing

[BG-57]

I actually bought a PSX two years in advance just to play FFVII when it first came out. I had to make due with Beyond the Beyond. I was certainly wowed by its graphics and materia system, having played FFIV and FFVI on SNES. Even at the time I was puzzled at times by the translation (clones, why don't they look alike then?), but I found it enjoyable.

While there have always been those that dislike FFVII, it seems to me that FFVIII and FFX-2 are much more polarizing games.

Check out Spoony's rant on FFVII, although its NFSW. He focuses mainly on the fandom though.

[Kenshin IV]

The game's "fandom" has always been an idiotic reason to hate the game itself. Though, I am well aware that many, many people do for just that reason.

[Vyk]

Hating something due to hype and fandom isn't always a conscious choice. Sometimes the way people behave in regards to a game or the things they say, and probably over-say, can ruin your perspective and experience on a subconscious level. Happens to me all the time. And I tend to avoid games, movies, anime series, and whatnot for extended periods of time, years sometimes, due to hype. I -still- haven't watched Evangelion because of how people praised it to be the work of god or some crap. Fortunately I got to FF7 and Xenogears before the fans started salivating and got to enjoy those games for what they were

And for the record, I played all the american released Final Fantasies in order. And I hate X and Kingdom Hearts. And 6 and 7 are my favorites. And I'm not a rabid fanboy. So I guess I break that generalization. But I'm a hard person to stereotype anyway. I also didn't really care for 9, at all. It was boring slow and a chore to slog through for me. The characters barely caught my interest in the slightest. Its hard to enjoy a story involving characters and plot points you don't care about

Now that I realize that FF purposely aims at younger audiences and refuses to embrace the wonder of telling a mature and gripping storyline, its no longer a mystery why I can't and haven't enjoyed a FF since 7. And why I loved Xenogears so much. Unfortunately I couldn't make it through FFT. Mature and gripping as the story may have been. Its the most complex and convoluted tactical RPG I've ever played. And I got tired of trying to memorize things. And the difficulty sky-rockets way to rapidly in some places for my taste. I loathe grinding in any RPG. But I'm used to TRPGs having a standard pace where you should only have to go from battle to battle. Not go back and fight one battle ten times to be able to survive the next battle. So its purely a gameplay mechanic disagreement. No real hatred for the ideas they tried to attempt for the game itself

[Elskidor]

FF7 was the third title in the series I played, and I enjoyed it at the time but I have never understood the fanatics. I replayed it a couple more times, and each time it's mediocre story and easy game play made me wonder "Why does this game have such a hype?" I got it on Christmas day of 1997 and had beaten it before 1998. Waaay too easy for me to enjoy enough to hold it as high as some do on the scale of best Final Fantasy titles. I only like a few of the characters and the main two are smacked with the emo stick. The Turks are awesome though!

I did begin with SNES, but I'm not really fanatic crazy about FF9, or hate Kingdom Hearts/FFX. My top favorites of the series would probably be 4, 6, (FFTactics if it counts) and 12. But it's been about 10 years, so I may replay though a lot of the games to see if my opinion has changed any.

[Alive-Cat]

The reason why I love it and why it's my favourite is just pure nostalgia. In '97 I was five years old - so I didn't play it then, although my older brothers did. I think I began playing their old copy of it in '99 or 2000 at the age of roughly eight. I just loved the story straight away, even with its little problems. I discovered VIII a little while later. I was so bad at them it took me years to complete them because I kept having to start again. By the end I was pretty good though. I never went out when I was young so I spent so much time of my life basically just playing Final Fantasy VII and VIII.
Yeah, I think if I had played other games in the series and spent that much time on them, they would be my favourites instead. I just get a good feeling of good times when I was young from FFVII and VIII. Good stories as well, I think.

[MJN SEIFER]

It does look like anime mostly due to the original character designs and weird physics of its world (Cloud holding a sword nearly his own size is a good indicator as that is a visual cue taken from anime) not to mention its the most Japanese entry in the series with the exception of FFX (technically its more Okinawa but we'll skip the history lesson) with all of the cultural and visual clues. There are stores in Junon that are similar to how Japanese stores are run with ladies the greet you. Tons of English and foreign words thrown around cause they look cool and have no real meaning, the HoneyBee Inn is a Love Hotel, even the Turks take visual cues and characteristics of the Yakuza. Midgard and Junon are both very modern Japanese in appearance and and how they work. The anime designs don't help and the whole situation of the Lifestream is taken from Shinto/Buddhist beliefs as opposed to the New Age versions seen in the West.

I can only think of one anime that has a massive sword - and that came out after FFVII. Furthermore the massive sword trope (I'd assume it's a trope anyway) has gone on for ages, mostly in Japan at times, but it doesn't begin and end in anime. I'm sorry to argue, but I don't feel the characters look too anime, some do but most don't at least not to me, but then I'm very particular about the anime I watch, and most of the ones I watch don't have the usual "stereotypes" of anime. FFVIII had a slight Japanese feel aswell, due to the battle system, and the SeeDs, as well as the use of cards in battle. Basically FFs are in their own world, but they take insperation from real things, and I thought the Japanese based stuff in VII and VIII did really well, as I am interested in that sort of thing anyway, I still don't think they had the right texture to be concidered anime.

Fortunately I got to FF7 before the fans started salivating and got to enjoy those games for what they were

Same here, moron less. I dunno if FFVII was hyped much when I wanted it (I had never read any reviews of it), I just read a walkthrough and I just thought this game sounds really interesting, and I kept trying to visulize it, but I just had to buy it, and I love it. Always will.

Now that I realize that FF purposely aims at younger audiences and refuses to embrace the wonder of telling a mature and gripping storyline, its no longer a mystery why I can't and haven't enjoyed a FF since 7.

I dunno if that's actually the case with Square, but if it is; simply being aimed at younger audiences does not automatically mean that it is imposible to have "gripping" storylines - many of the most compelling storylines I've found were in children's films, hence why I look for more compelling storylines in what I watch/play now. Furthermore, I always found most of the FF games I've played to have great storylines (even X, for all the times I find faults with the actual game), but my favorites are FFVII and FFVIII, and I don't think it's because I played them first, because I still like them - I always look at things in detail, and I remember how I view things, and FFVII and FFVIII have most of what I look for in video games.

When the time comes, they will be judged fairly - I will not pay any attention to hype, It's just my view on the matter, I hope it can be looked at. But it will be a while.

[Wolf Kanno]

[QUOTE=MJN SEIFER;2921163
I can only think of one anime that has a massive sword - and that came out after FFVII. Furthermore the massive sword trope (I'd assume it's a trope anyway) has gone on for ages, mostly in Japan at times, but it doesn't begin and end in anime. [/quote]

Let me try to explain this better cause. The point of the big sword trope is actually about a visual representation of strength. By that, I mean a character who looks small and frail wielding objects that far too great for their physical appearance would say they should be able to carry.

As for the big sword trope or just the monstrous strength trope, Dragon Ball/Dragon Ball Z, Yu Yu Hakusho, Fist of the North Star, and Ranma 1/2 to name a few are series that employ this trope or something similar and existed before VII since most of them are from the 80's and early 90s.

I'm sorry to argue, but I don't feel the characters look too anime, some do but most don't at least not to me, but then I'm very particular about the anime I watch, and most of the ones I watch don't have the usual "stereotypes" of anime.

Well there is the obvious anime influence...

Cloud_Strife_art.jpg compared to Crono1.jpg

I feel there are obvious similarities between these two.

1049399132_opquiztifa.jpg vs. SailorMars.jpg

There is more shadowing in Nomura's designs but he holds true to the iconic anime styles of lean muscle builds and feminine features for guys as well proportioned cureves and round anime eyes for girls.

He's obviously been drawing doujinshi before working for Square and I feel from his visual cues, he definetly was a big fan of Akira Toriyama's work but then again, everyone in Japan loves the guy.

His art style feels like a cross of Toriyama's style and Nubuhiro Watsuki even though Watsuki was making his signature series (Rurouni Kenshin) around the same time Nomura was working on VII and VIII.

FFVIII had a slight Japanese feel aswell, due to the battle system, and the SeeDs, as well as the use of cards in battle. Basically FFs are in their own world, but they take insperation from real things, and I thought the Japanese based stuff in VII and VIII did really well, as I am interested in that sort of thing anyway, I still don't think they had the right texture to be concidered anime.

Different thoughts and different taste I guess, nothing wrong with that though.

I dunno if that's actually the case with Square, but if it is; simply being aimed at younger audiences does not automatically mean that it is impossible to have "gripping" storylines - many of the most compelling storylines I've found were in children's films, hence why I look for more compelling storylines in what I watch/play now.

He's referring to an article I posted where Kitase said he and SE feels the FF series targeted demographic should be tweens to mid 20s and said he felt it was natural for older fans to grow out of the series.

While i certainly agree that children's stories can be compelling and meaningful on many levels and some of the most poignant stories I've read or seen were children's stories; I can also see Vyk's position about needing a little more. If I have one aggravating issue with the series, its that it briefly touches on mature and complex elements in life and philosophy but often never goes anywhere with it. There are no satisfactions in the more complex elements of the FF stories and often it will drop or ignore such elements to keep to a simpler tale cause the stories are often tailored for the lowest common denominator of the demograph.

Its especially annoying when someone gets to play a game that actually goes there and gets a serious taste for these type of elements. You want to see it everywhere but you'll never get it often. There really are no RPG series that are tailored for a crowd in their mid 20s and upward. Despite the fact this is the age group that grew up and supported all these games for years as kids. Sure this age group can enjoy these games but sometimes we want more cause life shows us that these titles often think too simply about major themes and sometimes we feel it would be interesting to see someone actually try to show it how it really is in the real world.

[MJN SEIFER]

[QUOTE=Wolf Kanno;2922290][QUOTE=MJN SEIFER;2921163

Let me try to explain this better cause. The point of the big sword trope is actually about a visual representation of strength. By that, I mean a character who looks small and frail wielding objects that far too great for their physical appearance would say they should be able to carry.
As for the big sword trope or just the monstrous strength trope, Dragon Ball/Dragon Ball Z, Yu Yu Hakusho, Fist of the North Star, and Ranma 1/2 to name a few are series that employ this trope or something similar and existed before VII since most of them are from the 80's and early 90s. [/QUOTE]

That makes a little more sense, and I admit that I obviusly missed a few - I still maintain that it doesn't begin and end with anime though, but at least I see what you and others meen now.

Well there is the obvious anime influence...


I feel there are obvious similarities between these two.



There is more shadowing in Nomura's designs but he holds true to the iconic anime styles of lean muscle builds and feminine features for guys as well proportioned cureves and round anime eyes for girls.

He's obviously been drawing doujinshi before working for Square and I feel from his visual cues, he definetly was a big fan of Akira Toriyama's work but then again, everyone in Japan loves the guy.

His art style feels like a cross of Toriyama's style and Nubuhiro Watsuki even though Watsuki was making his signature series (Rurouni Kenshin) around the same time Nomura was working on VII and VIII.

I'll admit I overlooked the fact that Cloud has the "Spiked" look, which was initially pretty frequent in anime (although I am suprised that you chose Chrono Trigger - another videogame, as your example, when you could have easily chosen an actual anime, it works though as I think the game's artist was the DBZ guy) I have been away for a few days, and to be honest, I thought "Oh wait, I forgot that animes initially always had a guy with the spiked look back in the day". The reason I forgot, is that most of the animes I concider good don't really employ that trope much now, and when they do it's rarley an important character, and is usually the purpose of a joke. But yeah, I will give you the spiked look.

For your Tifa comparison? Sorry, I'm at a loss here... are you saying they both have black hair? I was a fan of the Sailor Moon series back in the day (and still rate it pretty high in nostaligia) but I can't really see what your driving to wards here.

I never really noticed the other stuff you mentioned, but then I never notice them in anime itself either, so maybe that's why I couldn't see it. When you and other said anime style, I thought more along the lines of a Chrono Trigger type game, which to me, appears to have been completly drawn with anime in mind, to me FFVII looks like a video game, with graphics that have been suppased, but still look awesome, save for their "hands". However I agree with the fact I may have overlooked what you actually meant, but I understand what you are saying.

I also had a think last night, and I realized that all of the FFs I've played, have some level of anime influance (take FFVI for instance - Sabin is a martial artist, who can create beams of energy - a trope if ever there was one) but does it ruin the game? No, at least not for me. Also the anime influances are hardly suprising because the games are Japanese, but I see a balance in all games.

Different thoughts and different taste I guess, nothing wrong with that though.

I agree with you here. This makes a lot of sense to me.

He's referring to an article I posted where Kitase said he and SE feels the FF series targeted demographic should be tweens to mid 20s and said he felt it was natural for older fans to grow out of the series.

God, I hate the term "tween", but that aside I haven't really read that thread, but I will say I'll never "grow out" the series even if I stop liking it. 'Cause I never grow out of anything. For example, I still like most of the childrens shows I liked as a child, because they were programes I liked, and it seams stupid to suddenly hate something just cause your too old for it. The same goes when I watch programmes aimed at todays kids - if it looks like I would have enjoyed it as a kid, I enjoy it now.

While i certainly agree that children's stories can be compelling and meaningful on many levels and some of the most poignant stories I've read or seen were children's stories; I can also see Vyk's position about needing a little more. If I have one aggravating issue with the series, its that it briefly touches on mature and complex elements in life and philosophy but often never goes anywhere with it. There are no satisfactions in the more complex elements of the FF stories and often it will drop or ignore such elements to keep to a simpler tale cause the stories are often tailored for the lowest common denominator of the demograph.

I can sort of see your point. For me, the FF games, do contain some of what you are probably asking for, I personally believe that some of the FFs did manage to touch some of the more complex elements of life as you put it. For me FFVIII did the best in this respect, epecially how much it made me take a look at my own life. FFVII did a fairly good amount as well, but I noticed more of it, after a few playthroughs. Maybe there is a way to put more to it, but sometimes you have to be careful in a video game. I thought it did alright, but I'll check if my opinions matter. Also, sometimes there's a chance you may have to read between the lines - I'm not talking about OTT stuff like "R=U/S=G" or whatever, but sometimes things are given a more indirect aproach which is one of the better ways to do things, it's like how most of the later children's shows fail because the education aspect is right in your face, where as in better ones there's also a storyline, and the education is picked up automatically by the child. The same goes with the FF games, there are messages for day to day life at times, but it doesn't flaunt them.

Its especially annoying when someone gets to play a game that actually goes there and gets a serious taste for these type of elements. You want to see it everywhere but you'll never get it often. There really are no RPG series that are tailored for a crowd in their mid 20s and upward. Despite the fact this is the age group that grew up and supported all these games for years as kids. Sure this age group can enjoy these games but sometimes we want more cause life shows us that these titles often think too simply about major themes and sometimes we feel it would be interesting to see someone actually try to show it how it really is in the real world.

Well one things for sure, I'll never grow out of FF games. If was going to I would have done it by now. Eitherway, I think "outgrowing" something is a stupid reason not to like something.

Each to their own though.

[Wolf Kanno]

I wouldn't say the issue is that people have outgrown FF, rather, they want something more and the people at FF like to tease us with the idea that they might give it to us and then snatch it away before we can get a grasp on it.

For me, its more about how I found what I'm looking for in other game series and how I wish that FFs talents would do something on par but they frankly refuse. I don't think an FF title has made me actually "think" since 2000. Whereas Xenosaga, BoFV, Suikoden, and SMT3 have... I want more and yes, I'm being selfish when I say, I can't deny a part of me feels like Squenix owes me, despite the fact that such a notion is frankly absurd; but I also feel its poor business to ignore the needs of a loyal if aging fanbase, especially since such a fanbase does have a more expendable income as opposed to a predominant age group that still has to ask for their titles for major holidays.

I want more depth... The series has it but its still quite shallow compared to other mediums and the series never talks directly about more serious and less black and white subject matters. The world is not so simple and so I guess I want to see that more in games cause it just seems silly (and downright predictable) for everything to work itself out in the end. Its heart wrenching and bleak endings that stay with you and make you stop and think about the world.

[Bolivar]

Can't wait to sink my teeth into this thread but for now I'll say a lot of people hated this game because they wanted to.

They hated it because they wanted to.

People like Wolf Kanno declared Jihad against 3D graphics before they ever picked up a Playstation controller. Others may have been happy-go-lucky Nintendo kids whose innocence was first truly shattered by real world reality when FFVII would not be appearing on the Nintendo 64. Others were just blown away by the memories of the moments of FFVI and IV back in the day, and would refuse to allow another game to ever be considered, so the internet fanboy love OFFENDS them. For still others it may be a combination of all 3.

FFVII left the mark it did because it was a huge turning point in gaming and essentially gave birth to the Hollywood set piece that current gamers today are so enthralled with. That's probably why on the Game Over screen, there's a film reel containing scenes from the game. It's an achievement, no a testament in this medium, and it's up to the gaming fans to debate its undeniable relevance.

[Wolf Kanno]

I wouldn't say I declared war on 3D as I don't actually mind it, just this mentality that its superior which bothers me and that was rampant back in the early days of Playstation and Sega Saturn (which I did play before making my judgment call thank you very much) and we've discussed this before in the past , how 3D is sort of a wasted element on an RPG cause very few back in the day actually used it well if at all.

As for people disliking VII cause they wanted because they either were Nintendo fanboys or hated 3D, or because of nostalgia; I find it frankly sad that VII fans can't grasp the concept that people could dislike the game for legitimate reasons like they just weren't impressed as opposed to it having to stem from simple jealousy (and I'll agree there are many haters who do hate simply for this) but I find it amusing that as time goes by, VII has been losing its luster in the eyes of gaming journalism and the gaming community.

Having to live through the "VII IS TEH BESTEST GMAE EVAH!!!" for the better part of my gaming life, its nice to see people actually stop and say to themselves, "I love this game, but yeah... it was kinda silly and crappy in a lot of places" or "I only like VII because of nostalgia, its far from perfect". So let me bask in my moment :meditate:

[Flying Arrow]

People like Wolf Kanno declared Jihad against 3D graphics before they ever picked up a Playstation controller.

Eh. The thing about FFVII (and VIII and IX) is that, while "3D" it doesn't necessarily play like a 3D game. On the field map, it still feels 2D with just unconventional camera angles and player movement. Battle-wise, it was basically the same except for flashier graphics (although sometimes I'd be confused sometimes about who the cursor would be pointing to). I'd say the series really became "3D" with X when it adopted the conventional over-the-shoulder adventure game style of field running. Consequently this is when the settings started feeling a bit bland for me. While aesthetically pleasing, I'd still trade in a fully-rendered "environment" for Squaresoft's PSX-era explorable artwork any day.