Yes! FF has always been about trying new ideas and taking risks.
Yes, the FF series has been going down hill for years and needs an intervention
No, FF is fine, and this talk of the series decline is not true.
No, though the series has been in decline, its the Japanese influence that makes FF unique.
I don't really care.
Reganomics! ^_^
Too bad for ya ;(Originally Posted by VeloZer0
I love all those things and I want them back!It's funny, i found people complain about traditional parts of the franchise (e.g. Menu/command battles, lack of realtime battles, smashing X repeatedly, Linearity in general, Overworld, random battles). It seems to me that people don't want an FF game.
They just need a little tweaking. Simple things like learning the difference between drama and melodrama. Realizing that in-game graphics can handle the cinematic quite well these days. The world doesn't revolve around High School and appealing to 15 year olds. I think they could use some definite insight. I don't think that requires handing over the franchise to someone new. Though I don't think that's inherently a bad thing either. As others have pointed out, a JRPG is a style, not a country of origin. There's not a lot of high profile western-developed JRPGs because that's not what western audiences generally want, and its not what western developers generally want to develop. Its not to say they can't, or wouldn't. Its been done before. But I can only think of a handful of low budget games like Shadow Madness. But wasn't Sonic The Dark Brotherhood developed to be something like Mario RPG? I've never played it, but it was done by a western developer (BioWare). Bottom line, something needs to change. But it doesn't have to be supremely drastic. Square just needs to get a bit of a clue, that's all
JRPG isn't style, not in world where we have Final Fantasy, Nier, Parasite EVE, Demon's souls, Valkyria, TWEWY, YS, King's field, Xanadu next, Inazuma 11, Valkyrie Profile, Half-Minute Hero, Elemental Gearbolt and so on. JRPGs are so broad that it ends up encapsulating all kinds of games. Most of what Westerners think is "JRPG" is actually just specific genres, such as "Fantasy/adventure RPG" (e.g. Final Fantasy, Tales of, Skies of Arcadia). Much of the JRPG released here fits in that category but they are hardly the only genres produced. So why do we use this term ? In my opinion, the primary reason is to stereotype "Fantasy/adventure RPG" that differ from western made RPGs.As others have pointed out, a JRPG is a style, not a country of origin.
Er, maybe I'm missing your point, but I'm not sure how any of those examples aren't a fantasy adventure rpg? (Admittedly I haven't played a few of them) Tales of Destiny, Enchanted Arms, Super Mario RPG, Shining Soul, Resonance of Fate, Disgaea all have completely different play and combat types, but they still have a similar feel, and the style in which the stories progress can be comparable. JRPG is just an easier to type and more widely known/understood umbrella term to place them under. But if you want to place them all in a category labeled "Fantasy/Adventure RPG" its all the same games, its still categorizing under an umbrella. I'm not sure what that changes. I'm not fond of mincing words and creating dozens of niche politically correct genre labels. Too many games blur the lines. That's why I'm categorizing them by their style of progression, influence, art style, not play-type. Personally, when I say JRPG, I mean all those games, despite their differences. At the end of the day they feel the same to me. That's not me stereotyping, its my personal experience and the feeling I walk away with. But there are distinct differences in outlooks and feel and story progression and art style and whatnot in WRPGs. So they're categorized separately. Its not meant to be derogatory. Only real problem is a lot of JRPGs get to be a little generic and don't put a lot of effort in, or at least in the right places
I'm working on a few hours of sleep, recoiling from dealing with family for a few days with little alcohol to make it an easier experience, and working retail during Black Friday Weekend. If I ramble and seem incoherent, I apologize to the three people on this forum who actually read my posts.
Generally the main difference between JRPG and WRPG is that WRPG are basically PnP style where you create an avatar and go through a series of choices and 90% of the content is choice. You could go avenge your father's death or you could join the thieves guild and plunder the castle of Lord Vermonin East Ordor.
JRPGs are more about story and characters, the content of the game is much more linear cause the goal of the game is to be a narrative not an open world. You are playing the role of Joe Fonsenburger from Illiard whose home was destroyed by the evil Widget Knight and now he's joined with his childhood friend and romantic love entrance to travel the globe to collect the Seven Mystical Rocks so he can become the new Darth Knight and avenge his hometown.
The difference here is that Joe can't choose to ignore his quest, its all he's got. In a WRPG you can choose to ignore it but it makes the story parts less meaningful cause often than not you do a few adventures with some NPCs and never see them again afterwards.
I don't believe either style is bad, it comes down to preference. The W and J are only added cause the specific styles are pretty much associated with a specific genre. People have already pointed out a few JRPG "narrative style games" done by western developers but frankly, there are not that many "choice based" WRPG games made by Japanese development teams. Metal Saga is the only one I can think of off the top of my head that fits the true stereotypes of a WRPG whereas most other efforts are more like weird half breeds or fall more into traditional JRPG design with better flexibility.
Also, Valkyrie Chronicles and Disgaea are not JRPGs, they are SRPGs because their battle systems are strategic battles utilizing "military" units on a map. They get a new name thanks to their battle systems.
Now that this irrelevant issue of gaming psuedo-taxonomy is over, I would address that I feel the problem with the JRPG formula or "Japanese development style" comes from a few issues of developers not understanding how franchises are suppose to work, not understanding their audience, placing too much emphasis and prioritizing only parts of the game over others, listening to their fans (yes this is a problem and its not as counter-productive to this argument as you would think) and like Vyk pointed out, just some bad writing as of late.
For SE, part of the issue with many of their games is that a) their marketed poorly and b) quality is a mix bag. I agreed with what Bolivar mentioned in another thread about SE, which was that ten years ago, the developer was led by several artists, but nowadays it feels more corporate. While corporate means we get more games I feel the polish and quality are lacking.
I also feel that one of SE's biggest strengths is becoming a bit of their weakness, and that is innovation. It just feels like SE is trying too hard to "remake the wheel" with each game when tweaking the title would work. V-VIII were all applauded for their innovations in gameplay and battle systems but frankly, outside of differences of developing your character, the battle systems are still the same old ATB system of IV with minor tweaks to it to make it better. Hell, even the development systems of VI-VIII are nothing more than different ways of emulating V's Job Class system.
A lot of FF's innovations in the past was bringing more emphasis to story, graphics, and adding more gameplay tweaks and expanding the genre by showing its versatility while still remaining in the same framework of the genre. As long as you do it well, you can still hold onto a few things you did before. Most people I know would be ecstatic if FFXV was announced to have a job class system.
My point here is, there is nothing wrong with ATB and I don't see how turning FF into an Action RPG series is really better than sticking to a more traditional Turn Base system. The most amusing thing I remember seeing is how XII, and now XIII, are being trashed by FF fans for feeling different yet both are praised by critics for being innovative and different. Yet, Blue Dragon and Lost Odyssey were torn apart by critics for using that "damn old clunky turn base system" and feeling too "old school" yet both games are highly praised by RPG fans and FF fans. Not to mention there must be at least a dozen people on this forum who said Lost Odyssey should have been FFXII. Its just amusing that the game that feels like it came from the late 90's is getting more praise and adoration by RPG fans than the titles that both developers and critics are hailing as "the future of the genre". Change is not bad but its not always good either.
I've noticed that FF has been losing more fans as it tries to break away from the standards of the older titles. Radically new battle systems removing the strengths of ATB, going back and forth on giving games mini-games or stripping them all away, experimenting with very linear and story driven map design, experimenting with adopting a more huge open world with less emphasis on trapping the player onto invisible rails. I feel the process has not only been alienating older fans, but even worse, thanks to the games long development times and hyper PR, I feel its starting to splinter the fan base. SE can't really listen to any of its fans anymore cause they all come from different gaming eras and what works for them may not appeal to other fans. I would love the franchise to go back to having long dungeons, heavier exploration with less hand holding in the story, as well as being moderately difficult that would require me to actually put some effort into grinding a few levels. Yet how would that factor into appeasing a new fan brought into the series by XIII, who is use to having the story unfold like a movie with better scenery in exchange for longer dungeons, and difficulty going in hand with more generous and less detrimental penalties for not living up to the games expectations. We can bitch and whine about how SE should just listen to its fans but I would ask which ones? It's a 20 year old franchise with enough variation in its history that it's fan bases are more correlated to the era of gaming they grew up in over which FF happened to be their fave. The fanbase is splintered and the most we can agree on is we like FF.
As for the topic question... No, I actually wouldn't want a Western developer to work on FF. Not because I feel they would ruin it, I wouldn't be surprised if it was well received and actually a fairly good game. I just feel like it wouldn't have the same magic as the older entries. Yet, on the other hand, I haven't felt that magic from the series since 2000 so it's not like handing the reins over to someone else would be any different from what's been going on for the last ten years or so. So really, it doesn't make much difference to me.
True beauty exists in things that last only for a moment.
Current Mood: And it's been a long December and there's reason to believe. Maybe this year will be better than the last. I can't remember all the times I tried to tell myself. To hold on to these moments as they pass...
Well here's the thing. Giving a FF license to a western developer won't actually make the "real" FFs come out of japan any slower. You won't get one less japanese FF because we got one western FF, so in reality there is no loss for the people who refuse to touch a western FF, while those who do want one will get their dreams fulfilled.
everything is wrapped in gray
i'm focusing on your image
can you hear me in the void?
It's ok Wolf, the census committee always reads your walls of text.
This actually reminds me of an article I was reading on gamasutra about the state of game development and how to fix it. I'll link for anyone interested: Gamasutra - Features - Japanese Game Development: The Path ForwardNow that this irrelevant issue of gaming psuedo-taxonomy is over, I would address that I feel the problem with the JRPG formula or "Japanese development style" comes from a few issues of developers not understanding how franchises are suppose to work, not understanding their audience, placing too much emphasis and prioritizing only parts of the game over others, listening to their fans (yes this is a problem and its not as counter-productive to this argument as you would think) and like Vyk pointed out, just some bad writing as of late.
For SE, part of the issue with many of their games is that a) their marketed poorly and b) quality is a mix bag. I agreed with what Bolivar mentioned in another thread about SE, which was that ten years ago, the developer was led by several artists, but nowadays it feels more corporate. While corporate means we get more games I feel the polish and quality are lacking.
It's a bit long but well worth the read for anyone interested in why Japanese developers have been struggling the last few years. Half of this stuff Square even admitted they got wrong with FFXIII, but I do agree that perhaps the biggest problem is the lack of people with creative drive to share and complete a game matching the vision in their head, and a structure to development that stifles creativity from team members rather than encouraging it. Frankly, I think if Square could sort out their development issues and find the Sakaguchi's and Kojima's within their company they'd not only be on the road to improvement but probably on the way to dominating the industry again.
I'm not so sure about this. Odds are as publisher Square would be paying the developer for the game development which would mean taking money away from another project. It might not take money away from a Japanese developed FF of course, but something else may get canned. Whether that turned out to be a good or bad thing though, who could say?
A couple years ago I would give this a big no no. But now, after playing some Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, NwN, Fable, yadda yadda, I must say that would be interesting. I mean, both genres have things I like and I came to the conclusion that a game that could merge the best traits of the genres (so the sandbox-ness of WRPGs and character and story focus of JRPGS) would be thrilling. So far, the two games that came closest to this are Planescape: Torment and Final Fantasy XII, and those two are among my favorite games of all time. So, ultimately, I think it would be an intriguing experiment that might pay off.
You could probably get a major Western developer to make a FF title on spec. As far as the series as fallen releasing a numbered FF title still seems like a license to print money.
At this point I'm not convinced numbered titles can come out any slower without putting the Duke Nukem team on them.
No more than usual
In 10 years are we going to have to call these JSRPGs and games like Civilization WSRPGs?
The general consensus made by 'them' 'out there' is that RPGs are to slow to sell to the western market. So, ergo they have to be faster. But the thing is, as much as they make them 'real time' they aren't getting any appreciably less turn based. In FF12 they just moved the ATB until after you selected you moved instead of before, and added a spell que. As dynamic as the characters in FF13 were, by and large I was just watching and waiting for my two action bar charges to complete so I could power shift into something else and get a free charge. (Kind of felt like Guitar Hero to me, watch the screen and hit the button at the right timing
Yet refresh my memory, which FF title broke the series into the wastern market and still has the highest total sales of any of SE's titles? What battle system did it use?
I've always felt this way. Listening to the fans is akin to listening to a small child's opinions on bedtime and how much candy they should be able to eat. You want to make the best choices for them, but listening to short sighted whining isn't the way to do it. Just look at how wildly SE has lurched back and forth between FF10,FF13 and FF13.
I'm basically at the point where I have lost my faith in SE's abilities to make new titles, so I'm ready for them to try anything at this point. At least if they give it to a western developer and make a WRPG then I can finally give up on the series for good and stop worrying about it
Thanks for the clarification on terminology, Wolf. And you're quite right in your argument about their changes in development ideas. I never bought a new Final Fantasy (back when I liked them and still bought them) to see its new innovative battle system, or encounter style or how they handled towns or dungeons. That stuff wasn't broken. Maybe a little old, but every game from 4 - 10 tweaked the ATB just enough to make it interesting without being completely different. I wanted to check out the new story and characters. Which both 8 and 10 completely derailed me on. But at least I hated those games for what I was looking forward to?
I don't know if I entirely agree with this. Listening to fans, as in listening to the majority of people posting on message boards about what they like or don't like about a game is a bad idea, mostly because the majority of them either don't have a good idea of why it is they didn't like something, or are more than happy to offer up game breaking ideas for fixing them. Most fans are idiots who don't put any thought into why a game is the way it is let alone how to legitimately do it better.I've always felt this way. Listening to the fans is akin to listening to a small child's opinions on bedtime and how much candy they should be able to eat. You want to make the best choices for them, but listening to short sighted whining isn't the way to do it. Just look at how wildly SE has lurched back and forth between FF10,FF13 and FF13.
But there is a way to listen to people's opinions and thought on a game and even catch things the player never even realizes they're doing or never gives a second thought, and that'd be play testing. It's something most successful western developers do a lot of, and which Valve probably excels at more than most. But even in play testing there's ways to do it right and there's ways to do it wrong. If all you do is give players a questionnare to fill out after playing the game for a couple of hours then you're doing it wrong. Sadly most japanese developers, including Square, tend to do too little if they do it at all. Feedback is important, but you need to get the right kind and get it often and implement what you learn from it to make a great game.
I tried to make the distinction between listening to fans and basing a game on what fans want, but I did it in a really half-assed way.
Your post is exactly what I wanted to convey.
That's cool. We all have off posts. I had the feeling you might be leaning that way actually, but wasn't entirely sure. Figured the distinction needed to be made either way.
I was thinking more along the lines of a company would be asked if they wanted to do a FF title, and then they'd get a share of the earnings the game brought in, while the game itself was mostly financed by the third party developer. Even if SE did put a bit of money into it, money isn't really what's slowing down game releases from them.
Don't really see how this matters.
everything is wrapped in gray
i'm focusing on your image
can you hear me in the void?
My point was that even if SE puts all their in house development on hold to finance a Western company making the next FF title it will still probably come out significantly faster than their current abysmal pace of making numbered FF titles.
They could probably have 2-3 tries to get it right in the time SE would put out one game of indeterminant quality.
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