The only critically acclaimed JRPG this generation...

[Lamia]

is Demon's Souls.

Some say though, that despite the fact that it was MADE in Japan, it is still a "Western" RPG because it is one in style.

To any who have played Demon's Souls, do you think there is anything about the game that makes it feel "Japanese."

Also, many game editorial writers are claiming the JRPG is done for and if they want to survive they need to change. Some of them think JRPG developers should use Demon's Souls as reference in good JRPG making.

Does the JRPG need to change? Is Demon's Souls the kind of game that can satisfy JRPG fans? Are JRPGs just in a rut and will make a comeback without sacrificing what makes them unique? Discuss.

[Roto13]

That's really not the only critically acclaimed JRPG this generation.

[kotora]

this whole idea that RPGs from Japan have to conform to certain different styles than RPGs from the US is ridiculous in itself. There's good RPGs and there's bad RPGs and lately it's the ones from Japan that have been failing to be good because they can't break out of their own cliches (either that or they just plain suck).

[NeoCracker]

JRPG's this year have gotten Golden Sun and Atelier Rorona off the top of my head. And while a Hater like Wolf will scoff at those being good games, they are both awesome. We are in no 'JRPG Drought' this year.

I'll go more into why the suposed critics are wrong after work.

[Vyk]

Pretty sure Mist Walker's games were well received. Though I do agree that a lot of JRPGs are too cliche and boring. Though its not the tropes that turn me off. Its how they're handled and presented. Writing, music, possibly voice acting. Even a really great game can get bogged down by repetitive combat and/or a boring combat system that would turn me off of the game. JRPGs don't necessarily need to learn from the west. They need to learn how to write and be compelling, or entertaining, or dramatic, or something on their own accord

[Bolivar]

Valkyria Chronicles I + II as well as Lost Odyssey were all highly critically acclaimed and I can personally vouch for VC1 as as highly innovating the SRPG subgenre.

I don't know if I would say Demon's Souls is western. It's definitely vanilla high fantasy, which is what many western devs stick to, so I could see it on the aesthetic level, although it's still a superficial characterization. Instead, Demon's Souls stood out to me as Japanese as Japanese can get. It reminded me of Ghouls & Ghosts/Goblins/whatever-port-you-played from back in the day, where you start from the beginning, each time memorizing the order the enemies come at you, and taking each one down, in the confines of its own system. It's an action-RPG, but it's not a free-flowing game, the speed and strength of your attacks, as well as dodging, have their own parameters to them and it's very much evident with how it plays out.

Western RPG's this generation have been characterized by one thing: selling out. These games have "streamlined" themselves by forsaking what made them great on computers in the 90's and instead become more like action and shooter games on the 360 now in the 2000's. Older fans of Fallout cried foul on Bethesda's bastardization of the game into a shooter (although a lot of them like New Vegas now better), and Bioware really went hard with making a third person shooter with Mass Effect 2. I remember playing Fallout 3, with its static characters who look like they're standing still, even when they're moving, being bombarded with hundreds of choices and menial tasks to begin, none of which I could possibly care less about.

Personally, the East-West debate in the media has gotten so played out, and I'm so tired of hearing it, it just makes me lose faith in the direction video games as a medium are heading. Every time a self-proclaimed "journalist," or, worse yet, "analyst" claims that Japanese developers need to borrow elements from Western games, I wanna let them know how much they're coming off as the anti-christ, because I don't want Japanese developers making Western games, I'd rather them creating new genres of gaming we've never thought possible, and have the Westerners rip off of it for every penny its worth. Even worse is when they suggest Final Fantasy or such should be more like W(annabe)RPG's.

Because those games aren't fun.

[Vyk]

Games like Dragon Age never appealed to you I take it? I don't consider it selling out. Though you admit that the old Fallout games and probably Baldur's Gate had a good thing going. And though Dragon Age may not appeal to everyone, it did a lot of things right, and accomplished most of what it set out to do. Though what it set out to do may not have been your flavor. Some people really want to play hard fantasy Dungeons and Dragons, or Conan The Barbarian type stories. Its generally going to be darker, grittier, and more (possibly too) serious compared to extremely pretty, anime inspired backdrops with a less traditional take on fantasy, with multi-colored eternally good hair days and stuff. Unfortunately for me, a lot of JRPGs seem so middle of the road, they spent the better part of the PS1 & 2 days copying each other, and flooding the market. Now they need to go to extremes to differentiate themselves, and usually they go extremely into direction that fail to interest me. Though honestly I would not pick Fallout 3 or Mass Effect as pennicle examples of WRPGs either way. I enjoyed them, but I could never classify them as anything above merely "enjoyable". The last stellar WRPG I played was the KOTOR games. But somehow those stood out to me, because I wouldn't even put the Baldur's Gates of Fallouts up there with those two. Most of my stellar gaming experiences did happen with JRPG games. But the Xenogears & Chrono Trigger games are extremely hard to come across

[Jessweeee♪]

What confuses me is people buying JRPGs and then whining about how much they are like JRPGs. Whether or not a game conforms to a lot of JRPG cliches is usually obvious enough that you can tell without playing. If it's not your thing, then don't buy!

(Also, I quite liked FFXIII, Persona 3 and 4, 358/2 Days, and TWEWY to name just a few.)

[kotora]

What sucked about Dragon Age is that it was basically a Mass Effect mod set in fantasyland, except they actually took a step backward with the gameplay and story. I loved Mass Effect and how it took the whole conversation thing to the next level. Then Mass Effect 2 came along which sucked gameplay-wise because they wanted to appeal to the lowest common denominator in the Xbox-360 audience, but at least it still had a good story and an awesome space opera atmosphere. It was still better than FF13 despite it's flaws, because that game sucked on almost every level.

[Pheesh]

I agree with Vyk in that the KOTOR games are better than basically all the RPG's I've played in a while, but I have always loved the star wars universe, so I'm probably biased.

[Roto13]

I'm not all that familiar with Demon's Souls (I played it for like ten minutes when JKTrix brought it over) but I actually thought it WAS a west-developed RPG until I read this thread.

[Flying Arrow]

Easy way to define Demon's Souls as 'JRPG' or not (it's not):

Is it a role-playing game made in Japan, or is it a role-playing game that uses specific conventions in battle, exploration and storytelling? If it's the former, then the categorization is based on nothing except where the game was developed. In other words, if From Software just took a trip to Australia to make it, people wouldn't even be considering the J. Calling DS a 'JRPG' is as silly as calling Mortal Kombat a 'WFighter' or Gran Turismo a 'JRacer'.

The latter properly communicates the actual type of game. A JRPG is Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, SMT, etc.

Conclusion: Demon's Souls is just a straight up Action RPG developed in Japan.

As for JRPGs 'needing' to change - the entire claim is just marketing/consumer bull and based entirely on trends. If Japanese RPG developers want to make money over here, they probably SHOULD change their style. But there's nothing inherently wrong with the style as it is, which is what most people will wrongly tell you these days. Usually this comes from young gamers (and the journalists who pander to them, because the us vs. them thing usually leads to an explosion of hits and comments) who have grown up with Mass Effect and Oblivion - there's nothing wrong with any of this, of course, but it's the same prejudice as when I was 17 myself and thought that only dumb people played anything other than RPGs. This necessity for JRPGs to change really just stems from the fact that the style is no longer in vogue and the quality of the recent output from the genre as been... off. Hell, I'd even argue that JRPGs have strayed too far from what made them initially good.

Older fans of Fallout cried foul on Bethesda's bastardization of the game into a shooter (although a lot of them like New Vegas now better), and Bioware really went hard with making a third person shooter with Mass Effect 2. I remember playing Fallout 3, with its static characters who look like they're standing still, even when they're moving, being bombarded with hundreds of choices and menial tasks to begin, none of which I could possibly care less about.

Personally, the East-West debate in the media has gotten so played out, and I'm so tired of hearing it, it just makes me lose faith in the direction video games as a medium are heading. Every time a self-proclaimed "journalist," or, worse yet, "analyst" claims that Japanese developers need to borrow elements from Western games, I wanna let them know how much they're coming off as the anti-christ, because I don't want Japanese developers making Western games, I'd rather them creating new genres of gaming we've never thought possible, and have the Westerners rip off of it for every penny its worth. Even worse is when they suggest Final Fantasy or such should be more like W(annabe)RPG's.

Because those games aren't fun.

See, the meshing of genres is a tough thing to consider. The games aren't bad, but they certainly aren't the same style of game anymore, and are generally made in the hopes that they can reach a broader audience (huge budgets require huge sales, naturally). I suppose this is, by definition, selling out (BioWare's marketing campaign of Dragon Age II reeks of this sort of thing, and not in a good way). I'd say that Fallout 3 or NV are not sell-outs though. Bethesda didn't bastardize anything - they bought the Fallout name and made it into a game they know how to make. Fallout 3 has more in common with the Elder Scrolls than any shooter.

As for journalists and their opinions - most of them just repeat what the others say with no substantiating reasoning to back it up. It makes them come off as more than a little ignorant. Not only that, but the readership begins to think Japanese games = because they are not like our games. I dread reading articles about interesting new games coming out from Japan because the comments section usually degenerates into a xenophobia/racism parade.

[JKTrix]

Is JRPG unnecessary?
Is JRPG old fashioned?
Did you get tired of JRPG?

We do not think so!

[VeloZer0]

I have never felt that JRPGs were outdated, but I have felt that they aren't making good ones anymore. I haven't played a JRPG that I consider truly excellent this decade.

And the notion that JRPGs are all turn based is absolute garbage. Looking at me current gen video game shelf I see: Disgaea 3, Eternal Sonata, Final Fantasy 13, White Knight Chronicles, Lost Odyssey, Infinite Undiscovery, Last Remnant, FF7: Crisis Core.
Over 50% of those are some variety of real time.

IMO JRPGs need to do away with the idea that they have to be real time and fast. I have yet to enjoy one of these systems as much as a more traditional turn based one. It isn't the slow turn based systems that give JRPGs a bad name, it is boring turn based systems that give them bad names, replacing it with a mediocre 'real time' system isn't any progress forward. Especially when they then have to make my other party members AI, completely removing the ability for any highly detailed encounters. (Though I don't often praise FF12, giving the ability to modify your AI is a gigantic step forward)

Is a JRPG going to be a mega-hit in North America nowadays? No, I highly doubt that they can make anything to go up against Halo or CoD. But their attempts to make the games 'faster' aren't going compete either. They should just focus on keeping their existing fanbase happy.

[Wolf Kanno]

To start off, no I don't consider Demon's Soul to a JRPG. It's more like an action adventure game with RPG elements but I feel it lacks every convention that makes a JRPG and only has a few elements of the actual genre. Despite that, its still a great game but I wouldn't call it a JRPG.

Also, Bolivar, how can you criticize Mass Effect and Fallout 3 for genre melding and then praise Valkyrie Chronicles in the same breath; when that title did the same damn thing of merging third person shooter elements into a SRPG? So onto the more important topic...

I think Flying Arrow said my sentiments about the real issue being more of JRPGs not being in vogue, there is nothing inherently wrong with them, it's just that WRPGs have gotten the spotlight and now people are concluding that JRPGs are failing when in reality they are doing pretty nice thank you.

I'll admit, I do side with VeloZer0 to a point, in which I feel the genre has stagnated but I also think a lot of it has to with being overwhelmed with new series. The Tales franchise was releasing games almost quarterly for awhile and when they all feel like variations of the other, I kinda feel the genre is stagnating a bit. I'm actually tired of the anime escapades (ironic since my favorite JRPGs of the last decade are heavily anime inspired) and its getting to the point where seeing a flashy dressed guy in a trenchcoat with a big sword; his big eyes, big breasted companion, whose suppose to be a sorceress but is wearing an outfit even hookers would say is too risque; and any number of other anime/RPG tropes such as annoying hyper girl, cat girl, angel swordsman etc... I'm just turned off, I overindulged in the buffet that was the PS1 era and early PS2 ear and now I want something a little more classy and a little more... different. This is not to say that anime inspired stuff is out, but if you are going to use it, you need to start making it different looking. If I grabbed a few Tales, Ar Tornelco, and Atelier titles and showed someone the covers but removed the names, only the Babes Society could probably name them all correctly.

Major franchises have either faltered or just quit (Wild ARMS, Suikoden, BoF) and even attempts to bring back series don't go over so well (how is that remake of Lufia II people?) It doesn't help that SE has been kinda batting zero on the console front. Infinite Undiscovery, Last Remnant, Star Ocean IV, and even FFXIII haven't been making the usual "OMG!!! GREATEST GAME EVAH!!! *dies from gaming orgasm* spiel you usually hear. Really, the handheld market is where the genre is thriving as of late, (KH:BBS, DQIX, GS3: DD, and all the ports and remakes) It's having issues with the consoles it seems, whereas WRPGs are thriving.

JRPGs are not dead, they are just in other mediums. Sure the old guards has either disappeared or seems like they are resting on their reputation more than their skills but at the same time, I usually feel the genre does better in the second half of a consoles life cycle. I don't really feel their were too many exceptional RPGs on the PS2 until 2005 with the exception of Suikoden III. So, I'm kinda hoping to start seeing more console titles that are peeking my interest such as The Last Story has been doing.

This topic is a lot larger than this simple explanation but really the issues with JRPGs are plentiful and I don't believe their is one "magic bullet" that's going to fix everything. The genre has several problems from identity, game structure, innovation, and even marketing. I only provided my main issue with the genre as of late.