The Direction of Modern Metal

[Shoden]

I'll give them a listen, doubt I'll like them but they're worth a shot. Some growler bands are canny. Wintersun, Amon Amarth, Ensiferum. But I prefer clean vocals but also vocalists with range, a band without a good singer isn't necessarily a bad one but it can be a huge letdown, like Megadeth and Dream Theater for example.

Screaming, well the core metallers just take a page from the book of hardcore punk but REAL screaming, Rob Halford, Warrel Dane, Bruce Dickinson, Eric Adams and Tim Ripper Owens. Hitting some insane notes is a lot better than KSE/Bullet style.

Mind Falsetto's nothing new.

Also for style? er, "Wearing Jeans and Leather, not crackerjack clothes" a page from Manowar's Kings of Metal. Mind, Judas Priest and Saxon were doing the whole leather thing before them. (even if Rob Halford is openly gay, it all makes it kinda ironic. It was seen as the optimal peak of manliness and metal, he comes out the closet and it all gets put under the carpet like everything else out the 80's XD XD XD XD)

[sharkythesharkdogg]

That it from somebody who sings, death growls are just plain stupid! First because if you're an anyway decent singer you can use tone of voice, volume & projection in order to create a variant or convey emotion. People who growl or roar down a microphone do so because their singing ability is quite frankly horrific! Second, you are almost guaranteeing yourself surgery to have growths removed from your vocal chords because you're damaging them growling like a dying pig. Metallers beloved M Shadows from AX7 already had it done hence why he sings now more then makes animal noises! side note: I hate AX7

As for scream, if it is done well ie in key it can really add to song for example Jared Leto in the 30STM song Attack or Dave Grohl in Best Of You by the Foo Fighters. Then there is an entire genre of doing it wrong, I think it's called screamo or emo core lol

I hate AX7, too. They're douches. I love early Foo Fighters. So high five.

Doing it improperly does result in vocal chord damage. There are plenty of people who haven't done that to themselves.

Like I said, it's opinion. Just like any other form of expression. Some will love it, some will hate it.

You think people can convey those emotions through singing, I don't. It's at least not nearly as compelling. I love singing, and I think it's a great form of expression. I don't think it's the end all be all. Growls/screams etc. provide the right music with a primal energy. I'll state again I think the best, most versatile bands aren't afraid to delve into both styles.

Music is all about taste. You don't appreciate or even see how others appreciate aggressive vocals. No one says you have to, and even if they did, you don't. You're your own person. I don't think it's fair to claim they have no talent, though. They pour their hearts into those lyrics every night on the road. I can think of many passionless singers who just phone it in for the paycheck.

[sharkythesharkdogg]

I'll give them a listen, doubt I'll like them but they're worth a shot. Some growler bands are canny. Wintersun, Amon Amarth, Ensiferum. But I prefer clean vocals but also vocalists with range, a band without a good singer isn't necessarily a bad one but it can be a huge letdown, like Megadeth and Dream Theater for example.

That's cool, all I ask it that you give 'em a listen.

Anyone here like 3 inches of blood? So much fun.

[Pheesh]

You think people can convey those emotions through singing, I don't. It's at least not nearly as compelling. I love singing, and I think it's a great form of expression. I don't think it's the end all be all. Growls/screams etc. provide the right music with a primal energy. I'll state again I think the best, most versatile bands aren't afraid to delve into both styles.

What kind of emotions are you talking about? If it's anger/hate etc. then I would have to strongly disagree. You can scream your lungs out and sound incredibly angry without resorting to death metal growls and such. If you want examples listen to Jerk Off by Tool or So I Quit by Filter. Those songs the singers scream, sure, but there's tone in their voices when they do so, and it's not just guttural noises like most metal bands I've heard.

[Shoden]

Music is all about taste. You don't appreciate or even see how others appreciate aggressive vocals. No one says you have to, and even if they did, you don't. You're your own person. I don't think it's fair to claim they have no talent, though. They pour their hearts into those lyrics every night on the road. I can think of many passionless singers who just phone it in for the paycheck.

You can sing aggressively and angrily to convey the same emotions without resorting to growling though, its been done in Thrash Metal bands for the last 30 years. Shouting! If you can't sing decently at all, just shout, much easier than growling and better on the years. That's how I go about it. (SPOILER) YouTube - Culloden: The Void (Take 9000!!!) <- putting my money where my mouth is here and linking to some old rehearsal footage of my band, this is a song written by me, sang by me and I honestly do think this is a step in a better direction than being a core metaller. =\ it is all down to opinions but I do think there are steps in the wrong as well as right directions I suppose. Metal wont return to the glory days but if it all goes headstrong forward to a sort of core direction then all hope of the genre, for me, fades.

[sharkythesharkdogg]

[QUOTE=eternal essence;2942520]

What kind of emotions are you talking about? If it's anger/hate etc. then I would have to strongly disagree. You can scream your lungs out and sound incredibly angry without resorting to death metal growls and such. If you want examples listen to Jerk Off by Tool or So I Quit by Filter. Those songs the singers scream, sure, but there's tone in their voices when they do so, and it's not just guttural noises like most metal bands I've heard.

It's totally fine that you disagree. That's your opinion. To my ear though, the screaming in those songs (I honestly listened to both all the way through) simply isn't as compelling. It's controlled, and it sounds like they're sacrificing emotion for tone. They're good songs, I listen to both bands. Not in regular rotation, but I have some of their stuff. As far as screaming is concerned I submit for example the band From Ashes Rise try the song The Final Goodbye or The Noise(I know, ha ha!). To me if you're going to sing on something that makes you angry or passionate, and you're going to be aggressive with your vocals, go balls out. The beauty of the sound is in the conviction of his voice. It's primal, raw, and makes the song. You'll probably hate it, but we shared out opinions and views, and that's cool to me.

[sharkythesharkdogg]

Music is all about taste. You don't appreciate or even see how others appreciate aggressive vocals. No one says you have to, and even if they did, you don't. You're your own person. I don't think it's fair to claim they have no talent, though. They pour their hearts into those lyrics every night on the road. I can think of many passionless singers who just phone it in for the paycheck.

You can sing aggressively and angrily to convey the same emotions without resorting to growling though, its been done in Thrash Metal bands for the last 30 years. Shouting! If you can't sing decently at all, just shout, much easier than growling and better on the years. That's how I go about it. (SPOILER) YouTube - Culloden: The Void (Take 9000!!!) <- putting my money where my mouth is here and linking to some old rehearsal footage of my band, this is a song written by me, sang by me and I honestly do think this is a step in a better direction than being a core metaller. =\ it is all down to opinions but I do think there are steps in the wrong as well as right directions I suppose. Metal wont return to the glory days but if it all goes headstrong forward to a sort of core direction then all hope of the genre, for me, fades.

Shoden, you're vocal delivery is just fine with me, but I imagine many on here would not agree and lump you in with all the other screamers, growlers, shouters, etc. I also think the drummer should explore those vocals he tried out in the first minute.

You seem to be viewing a genre or genres of metal you don't enjoy as the downfall of metal in general. Sorry, but wrong. If you don't like a certain style of metal do your own, and that's what you're doing. It may seem to you that the "core" scene is getting the most publicity, and maybe that's true, but the other areas of metal are alive and well. They won't die, mainly because people like you keep them alive.

I also can't see a band like Arsis, or Nile using your style vocals. It just wouldn't work to me. Their style is dark and sinister. You're vocals are nasty, and coarse. Good for metal, but not that style of metal. Someone else might totally disagree. I also couldn't see you singing for Melo-death like Skyfire, or power metal like Iron Savior. I absolutely think deathgrowls and the like are valid forms of vocals. Apparently not many others do. Shrug.

[Shoden]

Now that is fair enough, I do see the anti thesis to my likes as the downfall of metal but I build opinions around those likes and also dislikes. People agree and disagree with everything but that's why I made this thread. To see what others think, to see opinions collide and compromise.

Some people view something as dead as soon as it becomes underground and vice versa but what I view, is that once something becomes a fashion, a trend rather than the soul and sake of music and art, it's totally and utterly a bad thing.

Its all Metal, at heart but there are goods, bads, ups and downs that vary from person to person.

[NorthernChaosGod]

That it from somebody who sings, death growls are just plain stupid! First because if you're an anyway decent singer you can use tone of voice, volume & projection in order to create a variant or convey emotion. People who growl or roar down a microphone do so because their singing ability is quite frankly horrific! Second, you are almost guaranteeing yourself surgery to have growths removed from your vocal chords because you're damaging them growling like a dying pig. Metallers beloved M Shadows from AX7 already had it done hence why he sings now more then makes animal noises! side note: I hate AX7

As for scream, if it is done well ie in key it can really add to song for example Jared Leto in the 30STM song Attack or Dave Grohl in Best Of You by the Foo Fighters. Then there is an entire genre of doing it wrong, I think it's called screamo or emo core lol

M Shadows is not beloved. He was doing it wrong for years anyway.

And there are plenty of bands that to do both clean vocals and growls, they're good enough at both to make it sound quite nice. Saying otherwise just shows a bias that you're completely unwilling to overlook.

[sharkythesharkdogg]

Some people view something as dead as soon as it becomes underground and vice versa but what I view, is that once something becomes a fashion, a trend rather than the soul and sake of music and art, it's totally and utterly a bad thing.

Its all Metal, at heart but there are goods, bads, ups and downs that vary from person to person.

Okay. I can see many bands from many different metal genres that fit that mold, but if anything it's the bands that are pushing the fusion of sounds that don't follow trends of fashion or sound by default.

Also, just because a band's sound fits into a popular genre doesn't automatically mean they're doing it because it's the latest trend. Many of the groups play a certain sound because they love that sound. They've been at it for years, and even if no one like what they were doing they'd still do it.

In fact what many refer to as the glory days of metal, the '80s, had some of the biggest douche-rocket, in it for the money and the babes, no sound of our own, clone bands I've ever scene. That's something that has always been there, and will never go away.

[Shoden]

Oh yeah totally, a lot of the American Glam Metal bands were as generic as can be with their sound but they still had some riffs that far exceeded some modern metal riffs. Not just that, some of the glam bands like W.A.S.P. eventually evolved a sound that was as fantastic as can be for an American cheese metal act.

But the original acts of the NWOBHM movement, the early bands that labelled themselves as heavy metal were all doing the same thing up and down the country, countless bands, some made it big, some didn't and still some of those bands delivered some very original and wellthought riffs and material.

Even up here in the wastelands of North East England there's fantastic original bands, hell even now if you look past the indie tossers, Vendetta, Chaos Asylum for example for new and for old? There's bands like Blitzkrieg, Hollow Ground and Fist that delivered some fantastic material.

It seems to me that even in the past the commercial value of a band and their material overshadowed originality and the process of the music getting out to the people in the days before internet relied on getting signed and such.

=\ sucks but hey, we're lucky now. Every kind of band can get their music out there across the world at the click of a few buttons!! D: wow.
But yeah, the reason I kinda have a grudge against commercial modern metal bands, a canny load of them lack the kind of depth and soul something a bit more avant-garde would.

[nik0tine]

The biggest obstacle to originality in genres of 'alternative pop' like metal is the emphasis on the 'scene'. Despite all of the talk, most metalheads, skinheads, punks, etc. that I know aren't really 'in it' for the music so much as they are 'in it' for a place to belong. Metal is more than just music; it's a culture and culture is poisonous to original ideas.

You don't really see many (if any) metal musicians who don't look like metal heads. It's almost like theater on the bands part (I don't know about England, but in America we even call them 'shows'). These guys dress the part and the second they break that mold they are branded 'sellouts' by a bunch of whiny teenagers who, nevertheless, are the main source of income for the musician.
Imagine if a band came on stage dressed in a plain button up shirt and slacks? Or a tshirt and sweatpants? The whole community would lose it. Many people wouldn't even listen to the music at all because they would be too busy hollering about how the band wasn't as XxHardxCorexX as they are. When a community doesn't even allow a band to dress how they want there is no way in hell they will allow them to write original music.

In short, most alternative pop cultures are full of conformists and showmen. The only solution I have for something like metal is for the musicians to completely abandon the community and disregard their fans. It might also be helpful to move away from the 'fretboard masturbation' mentality that is so prevalent among rock communities.

But in my opinion, metal is for the most part obsolete and was rendered so long before it was born. Music like this, this, or even this expresses to me everything metal strives so hard to express - It's sinister and has the energy of anger and rage. It's violent and full of turmoil and it despairs. It expresses all of these things, but it does so with one instrument instead of 4+ and without any special effects. It has extremely daring and original chord progressions (and lots of them, too). All of this is contained within a very logical form that allows for the principal ideas to reaffirm themselves and make large scale musical 'arguments' that are greater than the individual melodies themselves.

Where do we find this kind of quality in 'alternative' music?

[Shoden]

Ideas are there to create an atmosphere, a feel, a story. The way that metal expresses it, especially in the more progressive forms requires a lot more than just one instrument. To me there's a limit to how distorted, how, downtuned, how fast something gets before it becomes lacking, before it comes devoid of all feeling, all emotion, all that there is to relate and peer into the song.

These days, its the same tricks, showboating and cliches, just with new masks. Guitar wanking, only letting the bass guitar play roots and have it mixed down, have the drums play the same 4-4 blast beat and some angsty boy, man, woman or donkey taking the helm of the vocals. That's what's seen as the most popular thing to do. (7-8 and 5-8 ftw.)

Its the sub genres that dare to be different than this direction the genre as a whole seems to be taking and whether or not it can be considered evolution, devolution or being stuck in a time, that stand out and have bands that I can go "oh wow, I like these, maybe there's hope for new metal bands yet" and then I see another emo screamo alternative post hardcore technical alternative nu metal band that's just the same as hundreds of others out there doing the exact same thing.

Conforming to labels, new labels, new names, new sub genres when there's barely a change in the style at all. Its great to be different and create different atmospheres, experiment with different chord progressions, its great when there are bands, movements, clusters of Heavy Metal acts that bring something inspired, full of its cliches, full of its culture, its fandom just anything else, bands that stand out.

I'm not talking about Lamb of God, Slipknot, Bullet for My Valentine, Dying Fetus
I'm not taling about Opeth, Dragonforce

I'm talking about some really different acts that stand out, Mael Mordha, a Doom/Folk Metal band from ireland, they write some lyrics in Gaelic.

Ayreon, a progressive metal rock opera project featuring some of power metal's biggest singers.

Blind Guardian, while not exactly new they keep evolving and changing.

Iron Maiden too, since they reformed they have been fantastic and I don't care if all the 80's fanboys who want the C D E galloping 3 minute wonders back, their new progressive, deeper, inspired and experimental sound is fantastic and an inspiration for all even today.


You know, ironically Progressive rock was banged, it was blasted and criticised for its technicality, song lengths and structures but as its elements make a return to some metal bands, it kinda brings new life but the thing is, you gotta be one hell of a musician or group of musicians to pull off this kinda stuff.

Neoclassical got old when Malmsteen, Jason Becker and Marty Friedman bummed it in the 80's and 90's, it was new and revolutionary at the time but it became a monster that spiralled out of control. Bands like Helloween managed it fine but after their guitarist and singer left after the 3rd album they stagnated. Kai Hansen went on to form Gamma Ray who are another fantastic band.

Metal wont die, but it will change again and again and again for good and for worse. The cliches are there, the props are there, even though they've changed. I'd rather see a pub cover band or a tribute act than some emocore act though. North east England has some of the best when it comes to tributes and cover bands that apparently capture the passion and the image of a band but wait that reminds me of something else.


Passion, passion for the music. Yeah getting somewhere's all about image and marketability of their music but passion, knowledge, inspiration and just enjoying yourself is why metal hasn't died yet.

What's more entertaining when seeing a load of leather and spandex clad long haired men with guitar peen? XD (even if now its rather a load of floppy haired, make up wearing, tight jeans and fashionable shoes and shirts kids)

Well yeah, its good to look back at what it was.

PS: This is sloppy as hell, I'm kinda really tired and its a very half arsed rant mean no disrespect to your points above lol, I read them I see them loud and clear. I kinda went into rant mode and kinda gave up before replying to your points.

[sharkythesharkdogg]

The biggest obstacle to originality in genres of 'alternative pop' like metal is the emphasis on the 'scene'. Despite all of the talk, most metalheads, skinheads, punks, etc. that I know aren't really 'in it' for the music so much as they are 'in it' for a place to belong. Metal is more than just music; it's a culture and culture is poisonous to original ideas.

You don't really see many (if any) metal musicians who don't look like metal heads. It's almost like theater on the bands part (I don't know about England, but in America we even call them 'shows'). These guys dress the part and the second they break that mold they are branded 'sellouts' by a bunch of whiny teenagers who, nevertheless, are the main source of income for the musician.
Imagine if a band came on stage dressed in a plain button up shirt and slacks? Or a tshirt and sweatpants? The whole community would lose it. Many people wouldn't even listen to the music at all because they would be too busy hollering about how the band wasn't as XxHardxCorexX as they are. When a community doesn't even allow a band to dress how they want there is no way in hell they will allow them to write original music.

In short, most alternative pop cultures are full of conformists and showmen. The only solution I have for something like metal is for the musicians to completely abandon the community and disregard their fans. It might also be helpful to move away from the 'fretboard masturbation' mentality that is so prevalent among rock communities.

Certainly if you are to watch many more dramatic bands (Behemoth, Dimmu Borgir, all the way back to Alice Cooper or KISS) there is a LARGE amount of showmanship and theater involved. That created a group following that certainly mimed their fashion and shunned others who didn't follow suit. Their style is "dinner and a show". They all have some good songs, other than KISS, and the theatrics are just part of their art.

I disagree that this mentality pervasive all genres. Especially when it comes progressive metal and experimental genres. The bands and the fans are much more concerned about the music than what anyone is wearing. It attracts so many different types of people that a common fashion or mentality just really isn't even considered.

I don't know why the rest of the band isn't there, but for example here is the lead guitarist for a group i enjoy, Animals as Leaders. That's his style of dress at every show I've seen him at. The other members dress however they feel, and all the fans dress how they feel. Mostly jeans and t-shirts honestly, but it doesn't really matter. Last time I had on khakis and a polo shirt, I think. Who cares?

Here's another example. It's Between the Buried and Me. These guys get very heavy, but no one has any "deathface" make-up on or anything. Once again, the fans are just regular people too. They do it for the love of creating the music.

A third sampling is Periphery. They all dress like average folks, and when I saw them so did I.

Honestly, if I showed up in a tux at one of these shows I'd get a lot of stares, but I don't think I'd be messed with. It would just be viewed as unusual. If I were to go one of the shows you linked in your post wearing what would be considered common dress for the time, I don't know if I would have been let in. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find there was a dress code, and my clothes were too casual. You don't think the shows you used as an example had a fan base with it's own group mentality or fashion laws? I do.

I dress in what's comfortable for any show I go to. Others do dress for fashion or to fit in, but I've never been made to feel unwelcome. So even then, I don't think it matters.

ALL forms of music create bands and fan bases that make their own weird rules. They want to belong to the music. It's human nature. There will always be the more rational group that simply comes to play or listen to the music. The music belongs to them.

[Shoden]

KISS are fantastic live, their musicianship is nothing like it was, Paul Stanley can barely hit any notes and Gene Simmons is a terrible bass player BUT, they have a HUGE franchise, a HUGE fanbase and following and global acclaim. Why? Because they put on a damn good show. And have their name branded on everything possible. XD

Thrash Metal and its corresponding relative sub genres were sparked as a complete separation from all the showy, Glam Rock, Glam Metal stuff. They wanted to play music for the sake of just playing, enjoying and living the life of a rockstar. No getups. Just everyday casual clothing.

I agree and disagree with that though, having a difference betwen the offstage you and onstage you can make a stronger connection to the fans to the band but, isn't that a connection to the image? I suppose image does rule everything foremost.

I do think as well, that there should be no pressure or rule to say you gotta dress, or follow a certain fashion to play a certain style. That's what all the "Posers" "sell outs" labels are, there are people who think music is a fashionable image, a scene kid's paradise where they just follow whoever's "in" and "out" as popular music comes and goes. There are people like that who exist and I don't like them. Saays its all XD XD haha

Metal, Music is music first, everything else 2nd. More fun that way! IMO :3