The Direction of Modern Metal

[sharkythesharkdogg]

If you don't like "scene kids" and "sell outs", then frankly I'm surprised that you can even respect KISS's older stuff. I mean they have the KISS Army for christsake's. How much better of an example of "sheeple" do you need? I admit they were revolutionary for the time, but now? I mean the disco album? That was all for money.

I can't take their show seriously because I just have in the back of my mind that they don't do it because they love the music and putting on a show. They love making money. They've become the biggest bunch of sell out, corporate, money making, whores I've seen.

There's a difference between success and compromising who you are. I feel like they shunned everything else to not compromise making money a long time ago.

end rant. personal opinion.

[Shoden]

Gene Simmons is a filthy money hungry... er actually he fits the Jewish stereotype and he actually is Jewish. XD (I find that insanely funny, its not a pisstake or a stab incase some PC git comes here and hounds me, Simmons is Jewish by blood. The stereotype is they love money!)

I agree they have taken it a bit far with commercialisation of everything but is it not respectable? how big they've become? I think it is, I'm not the biggest or most dedicated fan, I just went to a show, wanted to be entertained and well yeah they did alright, what they lacked for musically they made up for in absolute showmanship.

There's a difference between KISS and scene bands, in the fact that scene bands don't even care for their show, they care for their image and commercial value of their music. KISS are money hungry, ripoff, ingenious businessman as well as a band that cashes in on their image which in turn goes into endorsing and merchandising more and making more elaborate shows.

Apart from that, they're just a run of the mill rock band with multiple singers and some catchy songs. Love Gun, God Of Thunder, War Machine.

Actually I liked them best in the no makeup era, typical 80's cheese. urgh XD the horrors, still canny stuff and yeah they are money loving whores but they've earned it, its despicable as much as it is respectable, they were once clowns busking on the streets of new york. now they're rich.

Jammy bastards!

Best show I've seen has to either be Judas Priest or Saxon though, they combined the 2 together, showmanship and musicianship. Metallica were pretty cool but their sound was crap. Newcastle's Metroradio arena sucks.

There are bands that can be considered metal that are still going, haven't changed a bit. Motorhead. I mean who would dare go up to Lemmy and say "do something different!" XD he'd get kicked in, poor sod. Plus they're stubborn, they play what they want as they like it, fair enough.

Lemmy is a god he can do what he wants. Better than KISS anyday

[sharkythesharkdogg]

Gene Simmons is a filthy money hungry... er actually he fits the Jewish stereotype and he actually is Jewish. XD (I find that insanely funny, its not a pisstake or a stab incase some PC git comes here and hounds me, Simmons is Jewish by blood. The stereotype is they love money!)

I agree they have taken it a bit far with commercialization of everything but is it not respectable? how big they've become? I think it is, I'm not the biggest or most dedicated fan, I just went to a show, wanted to be entertained and well yeah they did alright, what they lacked for musically they made up for in absolute showmanship.

There's a difference between KISS and scene bands, in the fact that scene bands don't even care for their show, they care for their image and commercial value of their music. KISS are money hungry, ripoff, ingenious businessman as well as a band that cashes in on their image which in turn goes into endorsing and merchandising more and making more elaborate shows.

Apart from that, they're just a run of the mill rock band with multiple singers and some catchy songs. Love Gun, God Of Thunder, War Machine.

Actually I liked them best in the no makeup era, typical 80's cheese. urgh XD the horrors, still canny stuff and yeah they are money loving whores but they've earned it, its despicable as much as it is respectable, they were once clowns busking on the streets of new york. now they're rich.

Jammy bastards!

Best show I've seen has to either be Judas Priest or Saxon though, they combined the 2 together, showmanship and musicianship. Metallica were pretty cool but their sound was crap. Newcastle's Metroradio arena sucks.

There are bands that can be considered metal that are still going, haven't changed a bit. Motorhead. I mean who would dare go up to Lemmy and say "do something different!" XD he'd get kicked in, poor sod. Plus they're stubborn, they play what they want as they like it, fair enough.

Lemmy is a god he can do what he wants. Better than KISS anyday

Actually, no. I don't think it's respectable at all. The other bands you've mentioned yourself have made a pretty solid living for themselves without going that route. KISS wanted more money, and compromised everything musically real about themselves to get it. It's their choice, but I really don't see how you can hate on what you refer to as "scene bands" for image and commercial value of music when that's exactly what KISS has done.

The difference is KISS has made millions, and most of these little bands still eat peanut butter and jelly sandwiches 3 squares a day riding around the country in a van. Every band is trying to make a living playing music. Maybe some of the newer bands like Killswitch Engage or Behemoth have been more successful. Maybe that is because they have a certain sound that is popular right now, but I don't see Killswitch Engage brand condoms, or Behemoth cologne. KISS has those. Take a look. Some might call it clever marketing, I call it shameless.

Maybe many bands are selling or creating an image for their fans to believe in and follow. I don't buy into it, but I don't blame others who do. I just don't think it's fair to write them off entirely just because they push that image.

I respectfully submit to you, Shoden, that you don't buy their image because you don't buy their sound. If doesn't grab you, and to your ear sounds hollow. Therefore, the image they portray and their fans also ring hollow. So they come across is trying to hard and selling out. Their fans are all fake idiots.

Music and showmanship have gone hand in hand since the beginning of music. Maybe when ancient man first stared leaping and rolling around the campfire to the sound of a simple drumbeat, there was one caveman who didn't buy into the dancing and thought it was idiotic. He just listened to the music.

That's all opinion, though. How badass is Maiden's stage presence and image? I think we can it agree it's legendary. I know there are other people who think it's corny and don't buy it. So to them perhaps Maiden is a corny bunch of sell outs pimping their image and tired sound to their mindless fans.

It all comes back to opinion. The asshole of conversations everywhere.

But yes, Lemmy is a BAMF. Well put.

[Shoden]

It is true, KISS did and still do put their brand ahead of their music. But their latest album has music that's barely commercial at all and will still sell and makes millions because it has the KISS brand on it.
They have everything and more, they charge a lot of merchandise. I had to pay £30 for a tour shirt at their gig and usually I pay £20 for a shirt, the Gene Simmons signature bass is £6000 and its horrible. I'd rather have my Rickenbackers over them anyday!

They're just a good show band, they put a lot of money and effort into the show but. Then again. Isn't that to make a maximum profit from the show? And get more people to come to their shows?
KISS are just the absolute cliche of glam rock times a thousand and still to this day they are.

Their music was and still is nothing unique or special, some cool riffs and such here and there but really they are nothing special, they did change their sound to fit the changing scene in the 80's when they took off their makeup and changed back again to a grungier sound that didn't work too well before reverting back to their original lineup, toured a bit, changed members.

It all about money! I do agree about that. Its the same formula, change your image and music to gain popularity.
A fashion show with a bunch of mediocre musicians posing on stage going through songs that angsty teengirls would orgasm over. XD

What exactly the scene band thing is, is that there are hundreds upon hundreds of bands doing the exact same thing with the exact same formulas for being a band. I can't tell the difference between You Me At Six, My Chemical Romance, Bring Me The Horizon, Black Dahlia Murder, Cryptosy or Whitechapel XD there's probably MORE Trivium, Killswitch Engage, Machine Head, Bullet for My Valentine, Funeral For a Friend. They're all clones of one and other I swear.

That's what I don't like, they're all trying to be one and other, nothing unique, nothing new, special and this is what's killing metal. There's less bands wanting to be original and revolutionary and more bands that want to stick to this trap. =\ They call themselves metal so I'll humour them and evn if I don't classify these bands as metal, well that doesn't matter in the comparison, unless you're Dragonforce and call yourself EXTREME METAL!

[NorthernChaosGod]

Dragonforce is awesome. What are you talking about?

[Shoden]

They WERE. First 2 albums were amazing, absolutely amazing, the last 2 have been very mediocre. They're not a band but their tendency to try and be different by forcing a different label or sub genre on themselves is a bit lol

[NorthernChaosGod]

Who cares what they call themselves? If I ever make it big in a band I'm making up a damn label and you all have to use it.

Through the Fire and Flames is still cool, I don't care what you say.

[Shoden]

Who cares what they call themselves? If I ever make it big in a band I'm making up a damn label and you all have to use it.

Through the Fire and Flames is still cool, I don't care what you say.

XD, awesome. Its a bit of a silly publicity stunt I reckon, making up a sub genre just to be different, there's more than just words and labels required to be different.

Its an awesome song but now its so overplayed and it overshadows the true classics like Soldiers of The Wasteland, Fury of the Storm, Valley of the Damned and Blackfire!!

Wait did I just call Dragonforce songs classics? OH GODS XD (nah nah jk, its just ironic that I use the term when I'm such an oldie)

[NorthernChaosGod]

Everything is less awesome than Prepare for War - just sayin'.

[sharkythesharkdogg]

They're just a good show band, they put a lot of money and effort into the show but. Then again. Isn't that to make a maximum profit from the show? And get more people to come to their shows?
KISS are just the absolute cliche of glam rock times a thousand and still to this day they are.

It all about money! I do agree about that. Its the same formula, change your image and music to gain popularity.
A fashion show with a bunch of mediocre musicians posing on stage going through songs that angsty teengirls would orgasm over. XD

What exactly the scene band thing is, is that there are hundreds upon hundreds of bands doing the exact same thing with the exact same formulas for being a band. I can't tell the difference between You Me At Six, My Chemical Romance, Bring Me The Horizon, Black Dahlia Murder, Cryptosy or Whitechapel XD there's probably MORE Trivium, Killswitch Engage, Machine Head, Bullet for My Valentine, Funeral For a Friend. They're all clones of one and other I swear.

That's what I don't like, they're all trying to be one and other, nothing unique, nothing new, special and this is what's killing metal. There's less bands wanting to be original and revolutionary and more bands that want to stick to this trap. =\ They call themselves metal so I'll humour them and evn if I don't classify these bands as metal, well that doesn't matter in the comparison, unless you're Dragonforce and call yourself EXTREME METAL!

Nothing compares to Disciples of Babylon, Revelations, and Fields of Despair. Ohhhh, I get goose bumps. Anyway.

I don't think KISS is a good show band. That's the point I'm trying to make you consider, Shoden. It's my opinion, but it's also only your opinion that the "scene" bands are unoriginal sell outs. I listen to bands that have a similar sound to KISS, but don't have the same doucher aura around them. I dislike KISS, but not specifically for the music. I just think that if there's any band here that doesn't care about the music or the show any more, it's KISS. They just do it for the paycheck. Once again, my opinion.

How many bands sell the same sound and image as Dragon Force? Ass loads. Why? Because it's all power/fantasy metal. (Extreme metal whatever). Dragon Force is not original either. You have Iron Savior, Gamma Ray, Galneryus, Sonata Artica, Stratovarius. The list goes on, and on. They all have the same tight pants, long hair, leather jackets, the same song structure, and the same 5 minute guitar solos. I still think they are all awesome. They just aren't original. They do nothing to push the metal scene forward. They have their genre, and I'm fine with that.

You just enjoy the music, so you can appreciate their show, their merch, their fans, and their "scene" more.

If you can't tell the difference between My Chemical Romance and Whitechapel, well just wow.....You might not like certain genres of metal, but there is obviously a difference. MCR isn't even metal.

If anything the "scene" bands are pushing forward a newer genre of metal than any of the bands you've mentioned. You might not like their sound/sounds (many of the bands you mentioned have different sounds), but it's shaking things up. Yes, there are many bands that sound alike in the "scene" band area, but that's the point I'm trying to make. There are a TON of unoriginal bands in every metal genre. That doesn't mean they aren't talented, or that they're stagnating metal. It just means they aren't the band for you. There's nothing wrong with that. Everyone has their own personal tastes in music.

The freshest sounds coming from metal are the bands I mentioned several posts ago that you said you'd listen to. On a side note, I really am curious to see what you thought of them.

[Shoden]

I've been a huge fan of Gamma Ray and Stratovarius for a while, kai Hansen is a talented individual who even in the days of Helloween was a force to be reckoned with as a songwriter and a musician. Every band he's been in and played a part in such Iron Saviour and Helloween as well as Gamma Ray have really been original.

Songwriting skills is something that not everyone has in a band and yeah anyone can snap up a guitar learn a few chords and learn the metal rhythms and tbh, I think that's what the forefront of the scene band brigade is, nothing too serious, revolutionary, nothing fantastic and some of the bands get so much praise, they get labelled as the next generation, the new wave of metal and there are bands out there who don't get the recognition they deserve for being different, original and passionate.

Power Metal is FULL of cliches hell yeah, C D E 4-4 200bpm dungeons and dragons, wizards and odin with a twin lead guitar showdown.

Gamma Ray though, are power metal but Rebellion in Dreamland compared to Armageddon, Beyond The Black Hole, Heart of the Unicorn, Into The Storm, each one is very different to the other. Some fit the cliche like a nice clean pair of socks and others are like wow, a religious experience almost.

Stratovarius, some albums are fantastic but a lot of their songs are uninspired and lacking, which happens when you have the whole Yngwie Malmsteen's illegitimate child thing going on with the guitarist. Neo classical, kinda gets old after a while.

Speed isn't everything either.

There are other power metal titans out there. Avantasia, Ayreon, Blind Guardian, Rhapsody of Fire, Symphony X, Hammerfall and even Helloween and Manowar I'd call power Metal.

I did look into them bands you mentioned, I didn't hear anything that really clicked with me though, sadly. =(


But aye, Power Metal's a shadow of its former self, the big boys are pushing forward and exploring other styles whilst keeping their fantasy, mythology and literature inspired theme close to heart. Blind Guardian's last album was absolutely amazing.

I believe that for any band of any genre to really make an impact and show that metal's not dead, needs some form of progression in their music, something that makes it all worth it.

Dragonforce were a good band, VERY good but the bands mentioned there and in your last post show that they're just lucky, another power metal band but they got their fame and they went downhill.

Oh and MCR there was an accident didn't mean to put them in.

Just to say, one of my favourite extreme genres has to be Doom Metal. Think Early Black Sabbath but with the dark, heavy and operatic vocals of modern metal. slow it right down, crank up the distortion and you have some VERY atmospheric stuff. There's a band called Mael Mordha who do it and combine piano and folk instruments into their sound. Isole is good too as is Electric Wizard.

If there's another bone I must pick, I think its the difference in sound. The 70's and early 80's had the best tones from the amps, you had to play like you meant it to get a good overdrive (I've played with amps from that era) and a bass player could use as much treble and volume as they liked without the guitarist moaning about their lack of a spotlight. =p

If all the bands reverted to valve amps, the tone from that era THEN we'd see who the real players are. The age of Line 6 everything is a horrible thing!

Oh, and songs over 5 minutes are godly. Just saying. Old or new. Anything over 10 minutes is beyond godly, if it can be pulled off because you have to be a hell of a songwriter and a skilled musician to pull that off and not loop the same 3 chords over and over. To make a progressive song, smurf me, must take a lot.

Keyboards, Keyboards are not gay in any way and should be used more. Bass, should be louder and singers should sing like they mean it. More baritones and bass singers like mr Johnny Cash please, less super high singers! D:

Ok Now I'm getting carried away!!

[NorthernChaosGod]

Tubes are whack, man. They're heavier, more expensive, and have a lot less power for the wattage.

[Shoden]

I shoulda just said Analogue lol
I'm a bass player so I know little about guitar amps. Oops

[sharkythesharkdogg]

Songwriting skills is something that not everyone has in a band and yeah anyone can snap up a guitar learn a few chords and learn the metal rhythms and tbh, I think that's what the forefront of the scene band brigade is, nothing too serious, revolutionary, nothing fantastic and some of the bands get so much praise, they get labelled as the next generation, the new wave of metal and there are bands out there who don't get the recognition they deserve for being different, original and passionate.

I did look into them bands you mentioned, I didn't hear anything that really clicked with me though, sadly. =(

I believe that for any band of any genre to really make an impact and show that metal's not dead, needs some form of progression in their music, something that makes it all worth it.

If there's another bone I must pick, I think its the difference in sound. The 70's and early 80's had the best tones from the amps, you had to play like you meant it

Oh, and songs over 5 minutes are godly. Just saying. Old or new. Anything over 10 minutes is beyond godly, if it can be pulled off because you have to be a hell of a songwriter and a skilled musician to pull that off and not loop the same 3 chords over and over. To make a progressive song, smurf me, must take a lot.

Keyboards, Keyboards are not gay in any way and should be used more. Bass, should be louder and singers should sing like they mean it. More baritones and bass singers like mr Johnny Cash please, less super high singers! D:

Ok Now I'm getting carried away!!

First, don't look at this as judgment, but observation. I think you're conflicted. Your views are torn. It angers you that the genres you like don't get the recognition of the "scene" bands. I think that's because the "scene" bands have a newer sound. Even doom metal can trace it's origins back to the 70's. Death metal, black metal, and their "core" derivatives can trace their roots back basically to the early 90's. Maybe their sound is starting to become tired as well, but it's still much newer.

You're a self proclaimed "oldie". It seems you want bands that sound good to your ear to be held high again, and to keep pushing the sound forward. That's not the job of the "scene" bands, that's the job of those bands. If the sound isn't getting recognized by people, maybe the need to push harder.

Do me a favor. It'll take a minute, but I'd appreciate it. Listen to this song.
Now try this one.
Try to listen to both ENTIRELY. Even if you don't like the sound, can you really say it's not trying new things? Is it not pushing things forward? They're talented, intelligent song writers.

It has many other aspects you asked for. They play fast, they play slow, one song uses a keyboard, the songs are over 5 minutes, they have a classic powermetal solo near the end of one song, and no one is screaming or wearing eyeliner. They use odd time signatures, and many other jazz/blues stylings in their music. There's no scene kids, they play the music because they love it.

[NorthernChaosGod]

Do me a favor. It'll take a minute, but I'd appreciate it. Listen to this song.
Now try this one.
Try to listen to both ENTIRELY. Even if you don't like the sound, can you really say it's not trying new things? Is it not pushing things forward? They're talented, intelligent song writers.

It has many other aspects you asked for. They play fast, they play slow, one song uses a keyboard, the songs are over 5 minutes, they have a classic powermetal solo near the end of one song, and no one is screaming or wearing eyeliner. They use odd time signatures, and many other jazz/blues stylings in their music. There's no scene kids, they play the music because they love it.

Okay, both of those songs are awesome. I'm definitely checking out more of that guy's work.