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Thread: Game of Thrones: House of the Dragon!

  1. #1516
    Feel the Bern Administrator Del Murder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ouch! View Post
    Cersei, the woman who started the war by plotting to kill her husband, the King of Westeros, and whose exposed incestuous relationship is the linchpin for the entire war of succession that forms the basis for the majority of the series's plot is a minor character? And she is a point-of-view character, just not in either of the books you've read. While Cersei demanding acknowledgment from her father and wanting Casterly Rock happens before she gets any chapters, it is from the books.
    Yes she is a minor character in the first two books. She's barely in A Clash of Kings. She may be a catalyst for much that has gone on but that doesn't make her a major character. She has a much bigger role in the show and I think her character on the show has been handled much better. Her scenes alone with Joffrey or her father have shown me a lot more about her than I read in the first two novels. I think you are letting your future knowledge of what follows and what you've seen of the show to mask the content of the first two novels which you may not have read as recently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ouch! View Post
    Regarding rape: how about Cersei preparing to kill herself and Sansa to spare them rape if King's Landing were to fall in the Battle of the Blackwater?
    That's actually a good example of how to do it well. It conveyed the sense of fear and how the spoils of war work in Westeros. A good example of a gratuitous scene is when The Mountain book 2 spoilerrandomly rapes some innkeeper's daughter as payment for insulting him and then has each of his men take a turn. That was completely unnecessary as it was already clear what an imposing and fearsome figure The Mountain was. Rape was used as a crutch in that scene just to make him look as bad as possible. It was also disgusting.

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  2. #1517

    She is a major character like Varys and Littlefinger are major characters. They play a much larger role behind the scenes than they do in the forefront, like Ned or Arya does. Their influence on other characters, specifically Cersei's influence on the events mentioned by Ouch! and in her failed attempts at guiding Joffrey as king, make her a fairly important character in the overall story, both in the books and the show.

  3. #1518
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    Varys and Littlefinger get more characterization in the first two books than Cersei does, but I will concede that she is important for plot reasons. When you ask me who GoT or ACoK is about, though, Cersei Lannister would be far from my lips.

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  4. #1519
    pirate heartbreaker The Man's Avatar
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    By book five, Cersei is a much more developed character than Varys or Littlefinger. We don't understand at all what Varys or Littlefinger want (and Martin has confirmed they will never be viewpoint characters because "they know too much"), but Cersei's thought processes are clearly and thoroughly documented out.

    I really don't think the depictions of rape in the series are generally gratuitous. Martin may be a fantasy author, but he's striving for realism as much as possible (he's stated this explicitly several times). Rape happens a lot in war. Rape happened a lot in medieval history. The story depicts a medieval setting which is largely based off our own history and happens to be in the midst of a brutal war.

    That's not to say there aren't instances of it where it's lazy writing, but I don't think for the most part that he is using it because he has nothing else to fall back on; he is using it because it is what happens in war. It is not as if Martin shies away from other atrocities, either; the horrific tortures inflicted on others by the Bloody Mummers (which, admittedly, include rape, but go far beyond it as well) are proof of that.

    And The Mountain had no reason to rape the inkeeper's daughter? When do rapists ever have reason to rape? Most rapists are serial rapists, which is a fact large numbers of people seem to forget. If you depict a person committing rape once and then never doing it again, that is not a realistic depiction of what usually happens in real life. I would say he becomes much more vile because he keeps doing it over and over. This is another reason real-life rapists are so vile as well.

    It's crude, it's brutal, and it's not even remotely subtle, but that's the point. War is crude, it's brutal, and it's not even remotely subtle. If people had any idea what war actually entails in real life, it wouldn't happen so much.
    Last edited by The Man; 04-23-2013 at 10:54 PM.
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    I don't think you understand. I'm not trying to get into the head of The Mountain. Smurf that guy. I only mean there's no reason to depict that in the story other than for gratuity and shock value.

    Look, this is a fantasy story. Not a biopic on the brutality and inhumanity of war. There's freaking dragons in this story. So saying that this is meant to be a realistic depiction of the brutality of war is a stretch. The guy has a fetish for violence and he's putting it in his books because he can.

    What war was Martin in?

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    pirate heartbreaker The Man's Avatar
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    There is reason, though. As I stated, most rapists are serial rapists. Depicting characters raping repeatedly drives this point, which is very frequently ignored in Western media, home thoroughly.

    I believe Martin was a conscientious objector during the Vietnam War, but he is extremely well read about military history and I'm sure he has plenty of friends who served.
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  8. #1523
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernChaosGod View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Aulayna View Post
    I loved it.

    Totally going back to this set too!
    That's my girl.


  9. #1524
    Zachie Chan Recognized Member Ouch!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Del Murder View Post
    The guy has a fetish for violence and he's putting it in his books because he can.
    This is exactly the kind of statement that I think is entirely misplaced. Because his writing has loads of violence, he has a fetish for violence, and it's something he puts in just because he can? Depictions of violence in fiction are not an endorsement nor a celebration of said violence. Or misogyny. Or rape. Or racism. Or anything. Does this sound like a guy who has a fetish for violence?

    Martin on war in fantasy:

    "War is so central to fantasy... and yet it's these bloodless wars where the heroes are killing unending Orcs, and the heroes are not being killed... I think that if you're going to write about war and violence then show the cost - show how ugly it is, show both sides of it. There's also the other side (which sometimes gets me in trouble with the opposite side of the political spectrum): the glory of war. Those of us who are opposed to war tend to try to pretend it doesn't exist, but if you read the ancient historical sources... people are always talking about the banners that 'stirred the heart'... I think that if you're going to write about that period then you should reflect honestly what it's about and capture both sides of it..."

    He freely admits that there's something glorious about war, but there's a reason that he gets to the gritty, brutal aspects as well. That we're having this discussion at all, debating whether Martin goes too far in his depiction of violence and brutality and rape means that he's making his point pretty damned well. You're uncomfortable because of how prevalent that material is in his books. He's putting that in his books because that's the way things were and it should make you uncomfortable. He's not glorifying it. He's condemning it.

    Edit: Also from the horse's mouth, so to speak, on his female characters trying to assert themselves in a male-dominated world and if it's a feminist statement:

    "You could certainly interpret it that way. I don't presume to say I'm making a statement of this type or that type. But it is certainly a patriarchal society, I am trying to explore some of the ramifications of that. I try to write women as people, just as I try to write any other characters. Strong and weak, and brave and cowardly, and noble and selfish. It has been very gratifying to me how many women read my work and how much they like at least some of my female characters."

  10. #1525
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    Fair enough. Thanks for doing the research.

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  11. #1526
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    Del Murder: taking his role as Tywin to the next level


  12. #1527
    Zachie Chan Recognized Member Ouch!'s Avatar
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    Nice edit, buddy.

  13. #1528
    Feel the Bern Administrator Del Murder's Avatar
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    I play a game of shadows. Also, like Tywin I will never fully concede. He can do it for all those reasons and still have a feitsh for it. I will never bow down to any man! My legacy must be preserved!

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  14. #1529
    Zachie Chan Recognized Member Ouch!'s Avatar
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    A game of shadows? I wouldn't say either Varys or Littlefinger are loyal to Tywin.

  15. #1530
    Feel the Bern Administrator Del Murder's Avatar
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    Did we have a Varys?

    EDIT: Ha it's Roogle. Pretty good choice.

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