Game of Thrones: House of the Dragon!

[Formalhaut]

Changing the subject drastically from meta-analysing the histories of rape, torture, writing skill blah blah blah... my thoughts on the episode. I only watched it today, as I've been ill the past few days and missed it on Monday, so let me bore regale you on the episode. Sorry.

Game Of Thrones: Season 3 / Episode 4

Overall

An episode with an air of betrayal and revenge. Ayra's revenge, Dany's betrayal, Mormont being literally stabbed in the back, Varys's revenge, Margarey and Olenna's scheming... all facets of revenge. I loved this episode overall and we've gone over the hill of the opening three episodes, which was mainly filled with build-up. Two key sections in this episode really stood out, and Dany finally is becoming a major power in this story!

Jaime/Brienne

I mentioned this earlier on about how impressed I am with Jaime's development through the show, and this episode further proliferates his path of redemption. He was arrogantly smug in Season 1, indignant during Season 2, but now he's really turned things around now. He paid a high price for his kindness towards Brienne though, but it's glad to see Brienne repaying the favor with her pep talk. It's clear now that they are a real dyad in the story and rely on each other to get through the ordeal. It's credit to the production team and writers that they've solidified their bond in just two episodes: Episode 3 and Episode 4. In one fell swoop with Jaime's defending of Brienne, suddenly we sympathise with him again.

Arya/Gendry

Mere set-up. We meet that Dondarrion bloke again from season 1 and if I remember correctly he looks well different from then. It's decent set-up for the next episode where her story really comes along, and it's important to note Arya's revenge streak is being sated, remember the Hound is a name on her list, which actually hasn't been referenced in a long while.

Varys

Quite refreshing that we actually hear more about the Spider. This is really perhaps the first episode where we get quite a focus on the enigmatic enuch. We learn about his past, in a scene where Tyrion was reduced to mere spectator, an interesting turn-around where Varys is normally the 'supporting' character in a conversation. This scene was more a veiled threat though, as we learn that Varys can truly have great influence, with the sorcerer from his past being shipped like a cargo haul from UPS.

His next scene was quite good, with Olenna Tyrell, and has him back to his usual scheming ways.

Margaery

More from the smiling schemer, in where she feigns interest towards Joffrey. She knows exactly what to say to everyone and succedeed in winning the smallfolk back, which indirectly helps Joffrey too, something Cersei could not. Cersei knows she has truly lost her grip on the King and is further outcast from both her son, and her family. She's the queen regent in name only.

Dany's Angels

Dany has her posse now with Jorah, Barristan and Missandei, which is nice. With Missandei, she finally has a female confidant since Irri and Doreah died on her, so it will be interesting to see those personal scenes play out, so far this season it's really only been displays of power with Dany so far.

As has been said earlier in the thread, her betrayal was pure awesomeness. I KNEW I was right when Dany spoke Valaryian, I called it right back in episode 1. The look on the slaver's face (and her posse) when she spoke was priceless.

Beyond The Wall

No Jon Snow (that's next week), but it's a very sad episode all round when it came to beyond the wall. In Craster's Keep, the death of Mormont, for me was genuinely horrifying and shocking, and I actually skipped over the really harrowing, greusome bit. I didn't want to see him die! I know, call me a wuss.

The segment played well because whenever Rast (the guy who actually killed Mormont) was in a scene, the camera made well to zoom in on him in an ominous fashion and hear is moaning about all sorts. Good forebording on him, thinking back in the episode. Besides that, we also now get the split of Samwell Tarly and Gilly. Hopefully in later episodes Sam will really come out as a starring character with his own scenes, rather than being a foil for Jon, or a bumbling annoyance to the Nights Watch!

[Miriel]

Oh my god, you babies. God forbid you should have to scroll past some lengthy yet thoughtful posts to get to your next meme image!

[Jinx]

Oh my god, you babies. God forbid you should have to scroll past some lengthy yet thoughtful posts to get to your next meme image!

Seriously. It was/is a great conversation.

[Formalhaut]

Oh my god, you babies. God forbid you should have to scroll past some lengthy yet thoughtful posts to get to your next meme image!

Oh, I read them, and they were very well developed and nice, but it got abit for me after it was like a page of back and forth.

And don't get me started on meme images, I took part in Badass Mafia and got them in droves.

[The Man]

Another point I forgot to bring up earlier is that it's probably also worth considering that fiction is often not just a commentary on the real world but also on other fiction as well. As Martin himself points out in that interview (thanks for posting it, btw, Zach), war in most fantasy before Martin's came along was pretty sterile and bloodless. A case could be made that Martin may somewhat be exaggerating the brutality of modern life (I don't really agree with this case, but I can see legitimate reason for someone to think it), but there would still be an artistic purpose for doing so: namely, as a commentary on all the fiction that came before it. In other words, by making his world so brutal, he's presenting a deliberate "smurf you" to all the fantasy authors who came before him and presented war as some bloodless sport.

That said, I'm pretty sure at least 90% of his motive was just to reflect the actual brutality of actual history. I mean, yeah, there are dragons and (mostly not very powerful magic) and a few deviations from actual history, but they're mostly just used to add flavour to the plot. Apart from the climate issue, which is central to the setting, most of Martin's deviations are pretty small, and the world is mostly just asking, "What if the laws of nature had diverged in X and Y and Z ways, but human nature remained mostly the same?" Which, from where I'm sitting, is exactly the kind of question speculative fiction should be asking.

[Bolivar]

^ Yes, this series was created to subvert the major fantasy tropes, you could make a whole thread just about that. You also have to keep in mind that George also writes Horror, so unless you think all horror authors have a fetish, it's a little unfair to place him in that category.

[Ouch!]

That's also something that I think a lot of people really forget about Martin because the series is still incomplete. A Game of Thrones first came out in 1996. While most fantasy these days more readily engages "mature" content, when Martin first started the series, it was a drastic departure tonally and thematically from the rest of the genre. Crippling children and killing off the "main" character at the end of the first book was absolutely unheard of. And while more recent series like the Gentleman Bastards and The Kingkiller Chronicles may readily acknowledge rape, murder, and brutality as realities of the medieval settings fantasy often occupies, before Martin everything was quite happy to gloss over that in favor of a more idealized fantasy world of good vs. evil.

[The Man]

off-topic noteI'm not sure I'd go as far as saying rape is completely absent from earlier works of fantasy. I mean, there's the obvious example of Thomas Covenant, which depicts it being committed by the main character (although admittedly, due to his believing that the Land is not actually a real place, it's not presented as an everyday occurrence, and of course this is the main reason Covenant is considered an anti-hero at best and an outright anti-villain by many readers. This is also the main reason I haven't been able to get through the series yet - I find it impossible to care about Covenant after that, and the other characters, at that point in the book, haven't been developed enough to stand out much. I do intend to give the series another chance at some point, though).

There are also the early books of The Wheel of Time, which allude to quite a bit of rape, torture, dismemberment, and other heinous acts being committed by the villains, but many of these are completely inhuman monsters (many of them literally) and most of the rape is not described firsthand (although strangely, one of the most inhuman villains is subjected to it as punishment for her failures in a later book, and it's pretty clear that we're meant to feel sorry for her despite the fact that she's a monstrous person who (SPOILER)trained children as soldiers and committed other similar atrocities - not to mention, (SPOILER)by engineering the Tower split almost singlehandedly, she was actually more successful than arguably any other villain in the series, but because she didn't come when called she was raped and tortured regardless. If memory serves, this was in Crossroads of Twilight, making it one of the few things that happened in that book. Unfortunately and infamously, male victims of rape are not treated anywhere near as seriously, which is just one of many examples of the series' massively screwed up gender politics, most of which stems from the series' straw matriarchy). The series does feature torture used on a fairly widespread basis, as well, to the point where "put to the question" is universally understood as a euphemism. Admittedly, everyone who uses torture and isn't working for the primary villains is working for one of the secondary villain organisations instead.

So, to wrap up, I'd really say that Martin is notable more for presenting torture and rape as everyday occurrences in a medieval/wartorn setting that could be committed by allies of the heroes (insofar as there are any "heroes") just as easily as they could by antagonists than he is for using them at all. You may not have meant to imply otherwise, but I felt compelled to respond regardless.

[Jinx]

Finally watched this week's episode.

Y'all know I'm not a fan of Dany, and I'm even less of a fan of Emilia Clarke's acting "skills", but goddamn, the last 5 minutes of this episode were smurfing awesome.

[chionos]

I think what we really learn from ASoI&F & AGoT is that each person has their own set of values which they adhere to, and their own evils which they choose to inhabit. It's a relativistic view of a moral/amoral landscape. It allows Martin to make us hate a character and later love them. It says something about Martin and about us that we hate Jaime for being a child-killer, and later love him forprotecting/befriending Brienne. Same with the Dog and his treatment of Sansa. Good and evil are constantly shifting and being redressed, so the reader/watcher has to dig deeper into the characters and come to really understand their motivations and desires. He's really doing some things with characterization that normally only happen in Literature. It doesn't always work, but I applaud him for even trying it in the fantasy setting. Good people aren't all good, and bad people aren't all bad. Well except forRamsay. What an evil smurf. >_<

[The Man]

Agreed. Martin is pretty much the first major fantasy writer to try a cast composed almost entirely of anti-heroes and anti-villains, and he's so effective at it that there isn't even any consensus on who is an anti-hero and who is an anti-villain. That's a testament to how nuanced the characterisation and conflict are.

(Though there are a few beyond (SPOILER)Ramsay who are unapologetically evil, including (SPOILER)The Mountain and Vargo Hoat).

[Freya]

Here cheer up buttercups!

[chionos]

That video contains content from WMG, Freya,

W.M.G.






GOSH!

[Shlup]

Agreeing with Ouch! and The Man while disagreeing with Del and Miriel is an odd sensation. It's really interesting that, in such a violent series, the only violence being complained about is sexual violence. There is so much violence in this series. The brutality puts you on edge and reminds you this is not some standard piece of fiction where we kill the guys who wear black (in fact, Martin specifically dressed the Night's Watch in black to counter that trope) and the heroes all come through it--just like in real war (plus dragons), anything can happen, anyone can die, every hero makes bad choices and every villain can be relatable. Following what's safe and doing what you know the readers want is what's lazy. Writing a perfect little war where the women are safely tucked away while the men cut through dozens of bloodless creatures while remaining uninjured is what's lazy, and it does a disservice to anyone who reads it, glorifying war by ignoring the brutality of it. Martin doesn't write brutality because it's easy and because he can--he does it so that you know that everyone and everything is smurfed.

Anyway, as I was going to post last night before my internet went down: How goddamn heartbreaking is this face?



She's not quite as excited in the books because Loras has joined Joffrey's Kingsguard (and, thus, can't marry) so Sansa is asked to marry the oldest Tyrell, Willas, who's got a crippled leg and is not as hot as Loras.

Also, isn't Iwan Rheon supposed to be playing (SPOILER)Ramsay Bolton? I'm surprised more people aren't commenting on this. I KNOW SOME OF YOU READ THE BOOKS.

No. He's playing (SPOILER)Reek right now. That one comes later.

(SPOILER)He's Ramsay. The eyes give it away. And, well, the cast list.

[Cuchulainn]

I must admit there were times when reading the books where I've thought that Martin was a non-practicing sexual sadist but it just made me like him even more.