Game of Thrones: House of the Dragon!

[Del Murder]

Are you sure he doesn't just put it in there for the hell of it?

[The Man]

If he were just putting it there for the hell of it then there wouldn't be such in-depth examination of the psychological toll the misogyny of the setting takes on his characters. Cersei, for example, would not be even remotely the same person in a world that wasn't so tainted by misogyny. The misogyny of the setting played a major role in shaping her into the person she is. She is far from the only one; the misogyny is a direct influence on the plotline. If it were there and not commented on, then we could assume he was only putting it in to shock readers; but because it is such a major influence on the behaviour of characters, it's safe to assume that he's deliberately putting it in the story to comment on the effects it has.

[Ouch!]

You may not have read past book two, but you saw Sunday's episode and Cersei's confrontation of Tywin. You tell me if the misogyny has any purpose in the narrative or if it's just in there for the hell of it.

[Del Murder]

I was under the impression that scene was just for the show since Cersei isn't a POV character in the books (and was a more minor character in the first two books).

And I was more referring to the rape scenes.

[chionos]

Del evades successfully.

Counters with rape.

Ouch! responds with...

[Jinx]

I am so high right now, and the conversation going on in this thread is just blowing my mind.


Also, I'm pretty sure Pike posted this with me in mind. xD

Speaking of this whole conversation:

[Miriel]

Characters in work of fiction are allowed to express worldviews without the implication that said worldview has been endorsed.

I think you guys are missing the point of me pointing out the stupidity of Brienne's comment.

First, whether or not a line is contextually sound does not and SHOULD NOT influence whether or not an audience member can find that line to be offensive. Tossing a kid out a window is offensive. Chopping off a horse's head is offensive. Just because these things make sense within the confines of the story, does not negate the offensiveness.

I think it would be bizarre to watch or read or hear something dumb and think, "What's the context? Racist/sexist/medieval world? Ok, offensive remarks check out, no problem here."

Me thinking her comments are dumb does not mean that I think the comments are somehow breaking the show.

And beyond that, Westeros does not seem like a world in which people, unless they're fabulously wealthy and spoiled, can afford to sulk. I would imagine that regular people, women included, know how to hustle and survive. If you look at all the female characters on the show, some may be battrout insane or narcissistic or bland and naive or clever or strong, but few are just willing to lay down and die. So I'm wondering who Brienne was thinking about when she was imagining women sniveling and giving up.

Just in terms of the show alone, there are issues of sexism and racism that can't be waved away with the "It's how it was in the medieval period" excuse. Which btw, historical accuracy can't always be the go-to excuse when dealing with fantasy anyhow. The gratuitous showing of female nudity versus male nudity is an example of this. It's interesting because Rome actually had a ton of male nudity in addition to the female nudity, so it's not like HBO is patently against showing some dick.

As for the books, I only read part of the first book and found that I really didn't like Martin's writing style. The criticism he gets for the rape and sexualization of females doesn't seem to be that he includes it in his story, but the fact that he does it so overwhelmingly often. Depiction is not endorsement, most people get that. But when there is a LOT of sexism and racism in a fictional work where the creator pretty has absolute control over what does and does not happen within that fictional work, then you can understand why there might be incredulity and questions. I don't think Game of Thrones is a sexist work, even though sexism is depicted. I DO think that is some unintentional sexism and racism beyond what can be attributed to the integrity of the story and the themes. I also think that using rape as the ultimate BAD THING that could happen to a women, always and constantly, is most definitely a crutch and can be lazy or unimaginative.

Tigana is a fantasy book and much better written (although not a better story in my opinion) that does deal with rape and torture and whatnot. The writer just has a more careful touch with it.

[Formalhaut]

:kaoindif:I've lost interest in this thread.

[Quindiana Jones]

Question: can "appoint" be used as an appropriate un-negation of "disappoint"? Oh god, that doesn't even look like a word right now. I guess it doesn't really matter, since I did just prefix "negation".

Miriel never fails to appoint.

... or should it be "always fails to disappoint"?

[Ouch!]

I was under the impression that scene was just for the show since Cersei isn't a POV character in the books (and was a more minor character in the first two books).

And I was more referring to the rape scenes.

Cersei, the woman who started the war by plotting to kill her husband, the King of Westeros, and whose exposed incestuous relationship is the linchpin for the entire war of succession that forms the basis for the majority of the series's plot is a minor character? And she is a point-of-view character, just not in either of the books you've read. While Cersei demanding acknowledgment from her father and wanting Casterly Rock happens before she gets any chapters, it is from the books.

Regarding rape: how about Cersei preparing to kill herself and Sansa to spare them rape if King's Landing were to fall in the Battle of the Blackwater?

First, whether or not a line is contextually sound does not and SHOULD NOT influence whether or not an audience member can find that line to be offensive. Tossing a kid out a window is offensive. Chopping off a horse's head is offensive. Just because these things make sense within the confines of the story, does not negate the offensiveness.

I think it would be bizarre to watch or read or hear something dumb and think, "What's the context? Racist/sexist/medieval world? Ok, offensive remarks check out, no problem here."

Me thinking her comments are dumb does not mean that I think the comments are somehow breaking the show.

I didn't say that. In fact, I specifically said when I first brought it up:

To be clear, I'm not suggesting that anyone is accusing the show itself of being misogynist or that it's not allowed to have characters who are, but it is a step that I've seen far too many people take.

I happen to find a lot of the stuff that happens in the television series offensive, too. I just don't have a problem with fiction depicting that which I find offensive. Neither the show nor books are glorifying rape or sexism, it's merely presenting them as a reality of the fictional world. You both may disagree with me, but I do think that this serves a purpose for the narrative. Beyond that, I'd even say that the lack of "careful touch" is intentional. I don't think Martin is trying to be even remotely careful in his frank and casual portrayal of rape and misogyny. I'd argue that's part of the point.

[Pike]

[Miriel]

Beyond that, I'd even say that the lack of "careful touch" is intentional. I don't think Martin is trying to be even remotely careful in his frank and casual portrayal of rape and misogyny. I'd argue that's part of the point.

If an author is not being thoughtful and judicious in his use of rape and sexual violence against women, then he is being lazy or using it liberally for shock value. To use rape to show how dark a world is, to use rape as character development for a female, to use the prevention of rape as character development for a male, to use rape to show moral ambiguity in a character, to use rape to show who is a villain, to use rape to highlight "THIS IS A DANGEROUS SITUATION!" to use rape to build suspense, to use rape in all these ways many times over means that you are using rape as a literary crutch.

I actually don't think that the show has been gratuitous in the rape depictions. I hear the book tosses around rape like it's candy though. But having given up on the books (which is a rarity for me), I don't know how much the rape facilitates the story and how much Martin just uses it because he doesn't know what else to use when dealing with female characters.

Also, when I mention the careful touch, I didn't mean that Tigana didn't use rape frankly or boldly. More that when rape was mentioned, it was effective and seamless. And not gratuitous.

[NorthernChaosGod]

You people are ruining the thread.

Also, isn't Iwan Rheon supposed to be playing (SPOILER)Ramsay Bolton? I'm surprised more people aren't commenting on this. I KNOW SOME OF YOU READ THE BOOKS.

I loved it.

Totally going back to this set too!

That's my girl.

[Bunny]

Also, isn't Iwan Rheon supposed to be playing (SPOILER)Ramsay Bolton? I'm surprised more people aren't commenting on this. I KNOW SOME OF YOU READ THE BOOKS.

No. He's playing (SPOILER)Reek right now. That one comes later.

[Del Murder]

Cersei, the woman who started the war by plotting to kill her husband, the King of Westeros, and whose exposed incestuous relationship is the linchpin for the entire war of succession that forms the basis for the majority of the series's plot is a minor character? And she is a point-of-view character, just not in either of the books you've read. While Cersei demanding acknowledgment from her father and wanting Casterly Rock happens before she gets any chapters, it is from the books.

Yes she is a minor character in the first two books. She's barely in A Clash of Kings. She may be a catalyst for much that has gone on but that doesn't make her a major character. She has a much bigger role in the show and I think her character on the show has been handled much better. Her scenes alone with Joffrey or her father have shown me a lot more about her than I read in the first two novels. I think you are letting your future knowledge of what follows and what you've seen of the show to mask the content of the first two novels which you may not have read as recently.

Regarding rape: how about Cersei preparing to kill herself and Sansa to spare them rape if King's Landing were to fall in the Battle of the Blackwater?

That's actually a good example of how to do it well. It conveyed the sense of fear and how the spoils of war work in Westeros. A good example of a gratuitous scene is when The Mountain book 2 spoilerrandomly rapes some innkeeper's daughter as payment for insulting him and then has each of his men take a turn. That was completely unnecessary as it was already clear what an imposing and fearsome figure The Mountain was. Rape was used as a crutch in that scene just to make him look as bad as possible. It was also disgusting.