Game of Thrones: House of the Dragon!

[Bunny]

She is a major character like Varys and Littlefinger are major characters. They play a much larger role behind the scenes than they do in the forefront, like Ned or Arya does. Their influence on other characters, specifically Cersei's influence on the events mentioned by Ouch! and in her failed attempts at guiding Joffrey as king, make her a fairly important character in the overall story, both in the books and the show.

[Del Murder]

Varys and Littlefinger get more characterization in the first two books than Cersei does, but I will concede that she is important for plot reasons. When you ask me who GoT or ACoK is about, though, Cersei Lannister would be far from my lips.

[The Man]

By book five, Cersei is a much more developed character than Varys or Littlefinger. We don't understand at all what Varys or Littlefinger want (and Martin has confirmed they will never be viewpoint characters because "they know too much"), but Cersei's thought processes are clearly and thoroughly documented out.

I really don't think the depictions of rape in the series are generally gratuitous. Martin may be a fantasy author, but he's striving for realism as much as possible (he's stated this explicitly several times). Rape happens a lot in war. Rape happened a lot in medieval history. The story depicts a medieval setting which is largely based off our own history and happens to be in the midst of a brutal war.

That's not to say there aren't instances of it where it's lazy writing, but I don't think for the most part that he is using it because he has nothing else to fall back on; he is using it because it is what happens in war. It is not as if Martin shies away from other atrocities, either; the horrific tortures inflicted on others by the Bloody Mummers (which, admittedly, include rape, but go far beyond it as well) are proof of that.

And The Mountain had no reason to rape the inkeeper's daughter? When do rapists ever have reason to rape? Most rapists are serial rapists, which is a fact large numbers of people seem to forget. If you depict a person committing rape once and then never doing it again, that is not a realistic depiction of what usually happens in real life. I would say he becomes much more vile because he keeps doing it over and over. This is another reason real-life rapists are so vile as well.

It's crude, it's brutal, and it's not even remotely subtle, but that's the point. War is crude, it's brutal, and it's not even remotely subtle. If people had any idea what war actually entails in real life, it wouldn't happen so much.

[Del Murder]

I don't think you understand. I'm not trying to get into the head of The Mountain. Smurf that guy. I only mean there's no reason to depict that in the story other than for gratuity and shock value.

Look, this is a fantasy story. Not a biopic on the brutality and inhumanity of war. There's freaking dragons in this story. So saying that this is meant to be a realistic depiction of the brutality of war is a stretch. The guy has a fetish for violence and he's putting it in his books because he can.

What war was Martin in?

[The Man]

There is reason, though. As I stated, most rapists are serial rapists. Depicting characters raping repeatedly drives this point, which is very frequently ignored in Western media, home thoroughly.

I believe Martin was a conscientious objector during the Vietnam War, but he is extremely well read about military history and I'm sure he has plenty of friends who served.

[Pheesh]

"Post and subscribe to the GoT thread" they said. "It'll be fun" they said.

-__-

[Aulayna]

I loved it.

Totally going back to this set too!

That's my girl.

[Ouch!]

The guy has a fetish for violence and he's putting it in his books because he can.

This is exactly the kind of statement that I think is entirely misplaced. Because his writing has loads of violence, he has a fetish for violence, and it's something he puts in just because he can? Depictions of violence in fiction are not an endorsement nor a celebration of said violence. Or misogyny. Or rape. Or racism. Or anything. Does this sound like a guy who has a fetish for violence?

Martin on war in fantasy:

"War is so central to fantasy... and yet it's these bloodless wars where the heroes are killing unending Orcs, and the heroes are not being killed... I think that if you're going to write about war and violence then show the cost - show how ugly it is, show both sides of it. There's also the other side (which sometimes gets me in trouble with the opposite side of the political spectrum): the glory of war. Those of us who are opposed to war tend to try to pretend it doesn't exist, but if you read the ancient historical sources... people are always talking about the banners that 'stirred the heart'... I think that if you're going to write about that period then you should reflect honestly what it's about and capture both sides of it..."

He freely admits that there's something glorious about war, but there's a reason that he gets to the gritty, brutal aspects as well. That we're having this discussion at all, debating whether Martin goes too far in his depiction of violence and brutality and rape means that he's making his point pretty damned well. You're uncomfortable because of how prevalent that material is in his books. He's putting that in his books because that's the way things were and it should make you uncomfortable. He's not glorifying it. He's condemning it.

Edit: Also from the horse's mouth, so to speak, on his female characters trying to assert themselves in a male-dominated world and if it's a feminist statement:

"You could certainly interpret it that way. I don't presume to say I'm making a statement of this type or that type. But it is certainly a patriarchal society, I am trying to explore some of the ramifications of that. I try to write women as people, just as I try to write any other characters. Strong and weak, and brave and cowardly, and noble and selfish. It has been very gratifying to me how many women read my work and how much they like at least some of my female characters."

[Del Murder]

Fair enough. Thanks for doing the research.

[Aulayna]

Del Murder: taking his role as Tywin to the next level

[Ouch!]

Nice edit, buddy.

[Del Murder]

I play a game of shadows. Also, like Tywin I will never fully concede. He can do it for all those reasons and still have a feitsh for it. I will never bow down to any man! My legacy must be preserved!

[Ouch!]

A game of shadows? I wouldn't say either Varys or Littlefinger are loyal to Tywin.

[Del Murder]

Did we have a Varys?

EDIT: Ha it's Roogle. Pretty good choice.

[Ouch!]

This checks out.