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Thread: Game of Thrones: We ASoIaF-posting now, boys!

  1. #7771
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psychotic View Post
    So, after this season left me unsatisfied I started re-reading A Game of Thrones. My god, this book is so good. I'd forgotten how wonderful it was. The pacing is superb and the way Martin keeps your interest in so many plot threads is excellent. I think I am enjoying it even more from the perspective of knowing how it turns out and who all the random side characters are because there's so many little nuances and subtleties to pick up on. If anyone is bored I really recommend doing so (and then we can nerd out and share our thoughts together )

    I think the failure of the last season or two of the show has kind of put Martin's struggles with TWoW into perspective. It must be a nightmare to bring all of these threads together neatly. I wonder how much of the final two seasons will happen in the books. I suspect a lot of the fan service (Gendry x Arya, Brienne x Jaime, Lyanna, Arya in general actually etc) will not make it. I'm entirely convinced the Night King as we knew him in the show won't be in it.
    I'm actually rereading the series now too. You want to maybe make a discussion thread for it?

    And yes, it's so smurfing good. Like you said, it's interesting reading it through the scope of what we know now. I can see some possible hints about Bran's fate especially, in Ned's musings.

    I'm really interested to see what happens to book Tyrion, since they white-washed the trout out of him in the show. I understand they did it because Peter Dinklage made him so beloved, but I would have liked to see him go dark. He has the acting chops for it.

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    Huh? Flower?! What the hell?! Administrator Psychotic's Avatar
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    Where he wonders if Bran can be the High Septon? I was amused by that. That's not even your religion!

    Yeah, I think Tyrion was wasted in the show. I am happy to believe the dark Tyrion theories so far although I'll be thinking closely about them on the re-read.

    I'll tell you who comes out of it surprisingly well: Littlefinger. He's genuinely funny in this book and although there's a couple of awkward moments with Cat/Sansa he doesn't come across as badly as he does in the show. His "ahh don't trust me I'm a liar!" manner is disarming and, from Ned's perspective, it seems like he's genuinely trying to help the Starks. Of course, with knowledge from other chapters, specifically Tyrion's, you know he's full of trout about the Valyrian steel dagger.

    In general I actually dislike the characterisation of Ned as dumb, particularly when it was Sansa of all people (in the show) calling him that - as if she had any idea what he was actually up to in King's Landing with investigating Jon Arryn and the bastards. He was fully smurfing aware of the risks of what he was doing and how dangerous it was. He took steps to minimise the damage and tried to get the girls out, though Sansa smurfed it up (and I don't mean that unkindly, she was a young girl who was smitten)

    Also I think that honour inspires a hell of a lot of loyalty for him and his children down the line. It was not pointless! I believe that in the end, the love for Ned and his honour will really help House Stark.

  3. #7773
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    Yes, exactly that part! Although you're right about him not being of the Seven faith and so Bran becoming High Septon is actually quite funny.

    What Tyrion theories have you read?

    Book Varys is kind of the smurfing worst, though. The way he's portrayed in the show makes him seem like so much more of a threat, although I suppose, his simpering in the books is just another one of his disguises. Of course, they smurfed up Varys so badly in the show (like pretty much everything else).

    Also, I'm very, very glad you said that about Sansa. There are a lot of men (especially) who hate Sansa because she "betrayed" her family, forgetting that in the show she's 13, and in the books she's 11. She went to someone who had been kind to her, who she thought she could trust. Once her father was killed, she stopped trusting the Lannisters and everything she did was either to survive or to try and escape them. She's a literal child. People are unwilling to forgive her earlier chapters--literally written to sound like a bratty child--for the growth that she shows. I don't know, Sansa isn't like a big fave of mine (she's fine, I like her), but I will smurfing stan her until my dying breath because neckbeards can't stand that sometimes women--or in this case, a little girl--make mistakes.

    On this reread I have to say that I'm hating Bran's chapters. He just isn't interesting to me. At all. Jon's a little better this time around, Arya's boring, Ned's great, Catelyn's decent, Daenerys is good, Tyrion's the best.

    Also, I'm of the opinion that fAegon is real Aegon, but neither Illyrio or Varys was aware of the annulment of Elia and Rhaegar's marriage (and I do think they'll go annulment route instead of double marriage a la Aegon I) and I believe that information will come to light, and he'll find out his claim to the throne isn't valid. I believe he will actually prove himself to be a very good ruler, and that Illyrio and Varys' plan will have worked, but finding out this information will smurf everything up, and Dany will yeet him. The people will be profoundly unhappy that she removes someone they love, (especially if she does so by burning King's Landing). Then find out that Jon is actually Rhaegar's heir. This is my own theory, not something I've read elsewhere. I think it will especially tie in with the theme that those who should have the right to rule are those who are willing to do best by the people they rule.

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  4. #7774
    Huh? Flower?! What the hell?! Administrator Psychotic's Avatar
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    Dark Tyrion? Mostly the Meereenese Blot and Poor Quentyn. I do like the idea of him going up against Varys with his own Targaryen in the form of Daenerys. It would certainly make for more intrigue than the lol u have no cock pointless banter they had in the show. Given how full of rage and bitterness he is at the end of ADWD I can really see him and Daenerys going full Fire and Blood. If anything he will be egging her on, not the other way around.

    I actually love simpering Varys. It's the mummer training but I love how he seems sincerely shocked and saddened by every last development, like how he seems moved to his very core about Sansa's love for Joffrey/her father.

    Yeah there is nothing wrong with what Sansa did. She was kept - deliberately so - in the dark about the danger they were in and the game of thrones. She'd just been to a tourney and saw the handsome Knight of Flowers who gave her a special red rose, she had her beloved Joffrey - who was very capable of being sweet and chivalrous when it suited him and I think that's overlooked - she was becoming friends with the Queen and it was everything she'd ever dreamed of. Of course she'd go to the Queen to try to sort everything out when she thought she was being made to return to Winterfell for being bad.

    As for writing the infamous letters that offended Arya in the show, again, of course she wrote them. Ooh, little Lyanna Mormont would say no to the Lannisters, would she? Would she bollocks. Sansa was locked in a tower for several days an has been told she has traitor's blood and can't marry Joffrey. She trusts, loves, worships Cersei. Because she's the Queen. That's it. That's all there is to it. Why wouldn't she write letters as the Queen asks?

    I don't mind Bran's chapters because I think they give a great insight into Robb and the conflict he faces between being a boy and Robb the Lord. The scene where they held hands in the dark and cried was really touching and one of my favourites. With Arya, I forgot her fierce as a wolverine et al mantras and I kind of liked them, they were cute. I also like how vulnerable she is and worried for her father, and it was touching how she made up with both Sansa and Septa Mordane, people she doesn't like, out of her love for her father. I like the Jon and Daenerys chapters and think there's some mirroring going on with how they adapt to their really difficult new lives. Ned and Tyrion are my favourites too though for sure, although I also like Catelyn and how she sees through Lysa's trout.

    I have a view on Aegon but I want to re-read ADWD first!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psychotic View Post
    Dark Tyrion? Mostly the Meereenese Blot and Poor Quentyn. I do like the idea of him going up against Varys with his own Targaryen in the form of Daenerys. It would certainly make for more intrigue than the lol u have no cock pointless banter they had in the show. Given how full of rage and bitterness he is at the end of ADWD I can really see him and Daenerys going full Fire and Blood. If anything he will be egging her on, not the other way around.
    Oh man, I'd actually kind of love that. Book Tyrion and Book Daenerys are such vastly different and more interesting characters, and I'd love to see them actually revel in smurfing trout up.


    As for writing the infamous letters that offended Arya in the show, again, of course she wrote them. Ooh, little Lyanna Mormont would say no to the Lannisters, would she? Would she bollocks. Sansa was locked in a tower for several days an has been told she has traitor's blood and can't marry Joffrey. She trusts, loves, worships Cersei. Because she's the Queen. That's it. That's all there is to it. Why wouldn't she write letters as the Queen asks?
    And in the show at least (probably in the book too, haven't gotten there yet) Catelyn sees through it immediately, and it's a big part of why Robb chooses to call the banners. She was being held captive. They never believe for a second Sansa is actually trying to betray them. Even if she chose to write the letter sincerely (and in the scene between her and Cersei, she's hesitant), it doesn't mean she was being treacherous. It's just a little girl misplacing her trust, trying to fix a situation.

    I don't mind Bran's chapters because I think they give a great insight into Robb and the conflict he faces between being a boy and Robb the Lord. The scene where they held hands in the dark and cried was really touching and one of my favourites.
    I actually nearly brought up this scene in my last post, just because I loved it so much. You make a good point; also Catelyn's chapters do a good job of showing Robb the boy (mentions of his crown sitting on his head awkwardly, etc) and not Robb the King. I understand why the show chose to portray Robb as it did--especially since they considerably aged him up. Sadly, I think that it pared down Catelyn's story a bit, which is a shame, but doesn't matter as much without Lady Stoneheart being in the show. (There are theories that Lady Stoneheart will take over Beric's role in the show, and I think Beric's sacrifice would have been much more interesting to see from LSH's perspective...especially now that she's basically a purely evil entity. Being able to find that sliver of love and humanity that has fueled her entire adult life.)

    Septa Mordane
    I don't know why, but Ned telling Arya that Septa Mordane is a good woman is important to me. I think it's because it's instilling a lesson in Arya that just because we don't like someone doesn't mean they are bad, and doesn't mean they aren't on our side. Sansa is of course mentioned in the same conversation, but I think it's going to be important for the "pack". Also, Septa Mordane IS a good woman, and I'm glad she got some appreciation for everything she did for the Starks.


    I have a view on Aegon but I want to re-read ADWD first!
    Well, what is it? I'd like to know to see how your view changes when you reread. I've also only read ADwD once, and that was 4 years ago, so my head's basically filled with a lot of fluff in regards to that book.

    #TeamCersei #NeverDaenerys

  6. #7776
    Huh? Flower?! What the hell?! Administrator Psychotic's Avatar
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    Yeah, one of the major themes of Catelyn's story is family (them Tully words) and it doesn't quite come across in the show that Robb is in slightly over his head and barely holding it together. He's second guessing and uncertain about his plan with the two Lannister hosts until she coaches him to it, and she sorts the Frey crossing out with aplomb. Again, I dislike how the character is called dumb. Taking Tyrion hostage was a little impulsive, but she outsmarts him twice to pull it off. He would've made a fine hostage for the war (both Tywin's sons in their custody - whatever Tywin originally thought of Tyrion, his attitude immediately changes when he gives Jaime up for dead) but unfortunately the attack of the mountain clansmen left her reliant on both Bronn and Lysa. I'm looking forward to seeing more of her insight in Clash.

    With Aegon, people read too much into the "Mummer's dragon" line. He's Varys' dragon, that doesn't mean he's necessarily a false dragon. What I do know is that his story is intrinsically linked to that of Dorne and I expect House Martell to back him. I think a major theme of his story is rushing into things. His rise and return to Westeros has been planned for years, as has Doran Martell's revenge on the Lannisters. But they all have itchy trigger fingers, combined with the greyscale death sentence on Jon Connington and I think they're going to serve their revenge pie before it's cold. Aegon will take over much of the Stormlands and follows that up by pushing Mace Tyrell's trout in. It genuinely wouldn't surprise me if Randyll Tarly follows his show arc and betrays the Tyrells too and Mace dies. I hope we get a viewpoint (Jon Connington?) of that battle because it's going to be brutal for the Knights of Summer.

    I also think the Sparrows will ally with him (given how religious his upbringing has been) and welcome him into King's Landing. And then? Daenerys shows up. Fire and Blood. Dance of the Dragons... but not at KL. Dorne is going to be utterly ruined by Daenerys. I think maybe there will be some sort of machinations between Varys and Tyrion, and I think Aegon's hastiness will see him be the one to ruin the peace and and that's when she goes wild on King's Landing.

    I don't know where Cersei and the Lannister regime fits into this but presumably Tommen has to die at some point, followed by (Queen?) Myrcella in the burning of the Water Gardens.

  7. #7777
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    I definitely think people read too much into him being the mummer's dragon. I believe he's the real deal. But like I said, his claim is going to be void when people find out about the annulment of Elia's marriage.

    I think the Sparrows backing Aegon is a possibility, which would further lead Cersei to blow up the Sept (I do think we're going to get this in the book, by the way, and I think it's going to lead Jaime to kill her). But I think Aegon is going to win the Iron Throne, at least for a time, until Daenerys shows up.

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  8. #7778
    Huh? Flower?! What the hell?! Administrator Psychotic's Avatar
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    I dunno, wouldn't the vision Daenerys saw in the House of the Undying of Rhaegar with Elia and Aegon imply they were still married at the time of birth? He wasn't baseborn at the very least.

  9. #7779
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    They were definitely married when he was born, but an annulment would legally mean the marriage never happened, meaning they wouldn't be considered trueborn. Retroactively, he'd lose claim.

    I don't know, I think it's going to be very interesting to see how that comes up in the books, especially if the annulment of their marriage and the discovery of Jon's existence becomes common knowledge. If GRRM chooses to go that route. I guess he could say that because they were married at the time, he won't be disinherited. But he takes a lot of his ASoIaF from The War of the Roses/Tudor history, and Henry VIII disinherited Mary and Elizabeth both for a time, and they were considered bastards. Nowadays we'd never consider a child illegitimate if their parents divorced (and really, who really even thinks about this sort of thing anyways, besides the super-ultra-religious?).

    Dorne will definitely back him, but if they find out that Rhaegar and Elia annulled their marriage (especially if Rhaegar did it without Elia's consent), I think it will lead to them backing him in open rebellion. Which might lead to your Daenerys theory.

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    I keep toying with the idea of reading the books, but I hate the idea of never knowing how long the wait will be for the end. I did read the first book in college and really enjoyed it. Iím not sure why I stopped reading the second. I think I will try to read the series after Iím finished with the book Iím currently reading.

    Has anyone read the other stories in the ASoIaF universe, and are they worth picking up?

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    I'll read those books when he finishes it, so maybe never. I hope some day though as I liked the first couple I read. The story is definitely too grand for TV after the first couple books. The show should have cut out several major plot items just to keep the pacing consistent through the 8 seasons. Like bring Dany over the sea quicker so that she can integrate with the characters more fluidly or cut out the Dorne plot altogether.

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    I started reading the first book at one point but decided to hold off until they were done. So maybe ill never read them but if George rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr Martin gives us an ending ill go through and marathon them.

    This is mostly because I'm apprehensive about reading a story that might not get finished.

    Who knows maybe ill change my mind. I do have The World of Ice and Fire so I've been okay with reading lore and side stories.

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    Huh? Flower?! What the hell?! Administrator Psychotic's Avatar
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    If you enjoy the world and setting, and you thought the first few seasons were excellent, I cannot recommend the books enough. I know there is the risk of no ending but at least there's the show - disappointingly threadbare though it was - to fall back on. I also think The Winds of Winter is sooner than we think. From what people have gleamed, GRRM had nearly finished it before, decided it didn't fit well enough together and has re-written large swathes. Make of that what you will!

    Also from reading AGoT, I've been thinking about Viserys. He's written off as an example of Targaryen madness but I don't think a character from any other house who had acted like that would be labelled mad. He's an entitled insecure bully, sure, but actual insanity? Not really. Everything he did had a purpose, either to exert control over Daenerys or to get his army to reclaim the Iron Throne. His sneering I'm-so-superior attitude to the Dothraki is no different from, say, how the nobles in the Vale viewed Bronn vs Ser Vardis Egen and elitism is nothing unusual in that setting. His downfall is in failing to adapt (as Dany did) to Dothraki culture and as a result being convinced that he'd been stiffed in a business deal. It's not madness to get pissed off if you think someone has swindled you. (still a colossally unlikeable twat all in all though obviously)

  14. #7784
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    I also recommend the books. I think something is lost if you try and get through them as quickly as possible on your first read through. There's so much to pick up on that you'll miss if you're just trucking through. With most series, that stuff comes out better in rereads. But I think something is even lost reading the series now, knowing more or less how it ends, and which of the secrets were answered. But there's a LOT the show didn't even start to touch on. Like, smurfing Dorne? The entire main character from that plot isn't even IN the show! Euron Greyjoy is actually interesting and a threat! People consider Theon and Bran secondary characters...that's a big smurfing problem! Neither of them are secondary characters!

    You're right about Viserys. He was cruel, but no crueler than, say? The Hound? A very beloved character. I think it's telling that Dany still chose to name a dragon after him. And he kept her alive for all of those years. We know his paranoia about the usurper's assassins was legitimate, and he was quite a little boy himself when his life got upended. But he protected Dany, made sure she didn't starve, sold everything they ever had. If he was truly, completely evil, he would've just left her for dead and taken care of himself.

    Little tidbit I just noticed: Ned tells Arya that a lie for the right reasons is not without honor. Robert tells him later that he "never could lie for love or honor". Sean Bean was an extraordinary Ned, but I still think the show as missing something on just how solemn of a person he is. He doesn't sugar coat his words like other people do, he rarely laughs. I guess what I'm saying is that he's an extremely bald-faced person. I wish we could know more about how carrying the secret of Jon's parentage for so many years ate at him. Although there are theories that he told Benjen, and that's part of why Benjen joined the Night's Watch.

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    Oh man don't get me started on book Euron compared to show Euron. Book Euron is a terrifying and pure evil - as in even worse than Ramsay and Joffrey imho - sorcerer who is going to bring an actual sea of blood and Lovecraftian horror to Westeros. Show Euron is wacky Captain Jack Sparrow finger in the bum. Also the show needed Victarion who I am very fond of, the big dumb badass.
    You're right about Viserys. He was cruel, but no crueler than, say? The Hound? A very beloved character. I think it's telling that Dany still chose to name a dragon after him. And he kept her alive for all of those years. We know his paranoia about the usurper's assassins was legitimate, and he was quite a little boy himself when his life got upended. But he protected Dany, made sure she didn't starve, sold everything they ever had. If he was truly, completely evil, he would've just left her for dead and taken care of himself.
    Spot on. I think his is a very sad story and incredibly tragic. But I think because we see the abusive bully he was rather than the little boy who lost everything or the teenager on the run with his kid sister in tow we lose sight of his downfall and transformation into a prick.
    Little tidbit I just noticed: Ned tells Arya that a lie for the right reasons is not without honor. Robert tells him later that he "never could lie for love or honor". Sean Bean was an extraordinary Ned, but I still think the show as missing something on just how solemn of a person he is. He doesn't sugar coat his words like other people do, he rarely laughs. I guess what I'm saying is that he's an extremely bald-faced person. I wish we could know more about how carrying the secret of Jon's parentage for so many years ate at him. Although there are theories that he told Benjen, and that's part of why Benjen joined the Night's Watch.
    Without a doubt. Ned's thoughts and feelings are so interesting and I appreciate why Martin had to censor his thoughts on Jon's parentage to preserve the narrative integrity, I would really enjoy seeing how he feels about it. I think there's a little flash of worry about Jon when Ned is in the Black Cells, I just wish we could've seen more. Ned is haunted.

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