Game of Thrones: House of the Dragon!

[Cuchulainn]

Why can't I hate Cat & Cersei without being labelled a sexist? You smurfing women are all twats.

[Shlup]

You must hate one dude. I'll let you pick. Joffrey doesn't count.

[Cuchulainn]

I already did pick. Jon Snow annoys the sweet living hell out of me to the point where reading about the wall fills me with dread not knowing what moronic stubborn bulltit he'll pull next. (dance with dragons spoiler)(SPOILER)I mean who sends all his allies away & leaves himself surrounded by doubters who hate what you're doing? I'm glad he stabbed the smurf up. Anyway, why is Joffrey unacceptable? Cersei is equally abhorant and I listed her.

It's not our fault that the ratio of annoying smurfers written by George falls heavily on the side of the titted variety of human. Take that up with Mr Martin.

[DK]

Keep in mind that I haven't watched any of the second series yet and probably will not until it's completed, but I'm just wondering if anyone arguing that the reason people are hating on Sansa, Cat etc etc is because of sexism are considering the fact that the TV show is based on a 16 year old series of 5 or 6 books depending on where you live, and that the show itself has barely scratched the surface of what has happened in the story so far. As well as the fact that it's obviously limited in the depth it can go by the nature of television in comparison to books. I have no doubt that there are people in the community who are hatin' simply because the characters are women, there are always going to be some people that look at this kind of thing with a sexist nature.

But I'm also aware of the fact that there are probably a lot of people out there who have had many, many years with the story/characters and have way more knowledge of what the characters do in the future than has been shown in the TV series already and there's no way that's not going to influence people's attitudes to the characters. For me, my least favourite character in the series is Dany. It's not because she is a woman, it's because she is an utterly useless moron. To anyone who hasn't read the books that kind of statement may seem fairly harsh, to those who have, even if they like Dany or not they at least know enough to know where I'm coming from and am not just firing off vitriol because she's a woman.

based on dozens and dozens of people declaring they hate the female characters (excluding Arya, who's the most masculine of the female characters)

Well I can't speak for the masses but imho Cersei, Sansa and Dany are all utterly dire. Cersei is vile, and has always been written that way by Martin. Any hatred flung her way is more than deserved imho Dany i'm not going to go into again, she is just the worst person in the whole story and I can't go into it without spoiling a lot of stuff. Sansa is just dumb. She is. She is dumb. Cat I don't have any issues with near as much as those three but she certainly has done some daft things.

That being said, and again bare in mind I haven't seen the second series yet so not sure who all else is involved yet but Cersei, Sansa, Dany, Cat and Arya are not the only female characters in the story. Breine of Tarth, Melisandre, Ygritte, Asha, Margaery Tyrell and so on. AFAIK most people love these characters. Freed is more into the community than I am so I guess he'd know better, but I've certainly never heard anything about them being tit on the way Cersei and the rest do, and I'm pretty sure that's because they aren't assholes and smurfups like the other ones are.

[Psychotic]

My view is that anybody who thinks my opinion that cat is stupid is gender motivated is actually dumber than cat (AND THAT IS P smurfING DUMB)

Also 100% agreed with Dan. Those are some pretty god damn smart women right there too. I don't know if we're going to see her in the TV show, but if and when we do, Margaery's grandmother is one of the most intelligent people in the entire book series imho.

[Miriel]

Some of you just suck at reading comprehension.

Did anyone say that the reason, the only reason, or even the primary reason why people dislike a specific character is because of sex?

NO.

We said that female characters seem to get hate disproportionate to their actions than their male counterparts, despite a tremendous amount of stupidity all around. Like I said, Ned is very very dumb, but we all still like him. This could be cause he's also Boromir and Boromir is awwwesome. But still. Blond dude from the first season was evil but still a great character. That's the point. You might hate Cat, but I don't see many people here arguing that she's still a neat character. Whereas in the other female community I visit, people really really like her as a character, even if she makes dumb decisions. It's not that Cat doesn't have qualities that legitimately make her unlikable to some people, it's that those characteristics that make her unlikable seem more amplified and ranted about than a male character with lots of unlikable characteristics. Sure you can give reason after reason why you hate a character, but I think you would be incredibly mistaken if you think that gender doesn't play at least a small role in your perception. I mean hell, I know for a FACT that it influences me.

All things equal, women will be given less room to act like a smurfing idiot and still be liked, rather than a guy.

If you honestly believe that a male character who did the exact same things that Cat did would have garnered the exact same number of people disliking the character and voicing their dislike, then I think you're absurdly lacking in self-awareness. Like, really? You REALLY don't think that unlikable female characters are bitched about WAY more than male characters?

Sheesh, this is all so beside the point. You can all keep bitching about how much you hate Cat and how sexist overtones never ever ever enter into your perceptions, EVEERRRR. I DON'T CARE.

Aside from the super slow pacing of the episodes, I am for the most part enjoying the season. I think Varys is my fav.

[Psychotic]

You REALLY don't think that unlikable female characters are bitched about WAY more than male characters?

two words: theon greyjoy

imho miriel your views have been more sexist than anyone else in this thread.

[Shlup]

Theon's a villain. You're not supposed to like him.

[Psychotic]

are you supposed to like king robert?

this is important.

[The Man]

thrad was way tl;dr even given that it's about pretty much my favourite fantasy series ever but Dan said I should poast so here goes. also i'm suffering from pretty severe depression and about to go on vacation so i might not respond any further or even keep up with responses. you have been warned.

• significant portions of reddit are in fact hideously sexist. anyone who denies this at this point apparently hasnt read them very closely
• it is possible to dislike more female characters in this series without being sexist even if male characters do the same things. the characterisation in this series is so utterly complex that it is pretty much impossible to quantify objective criteria for rating them, mostly because of how many characters there are and how many things most of the main ones do. the characterisation in this series is so complex that it's pretty much impossible to quantify objective reasons two characters should be comparable, because "other things being equal" never happens in this series. that is, there are so many differences between characters that there is no way to see one character as a distaff counterpart of another
• objectively speaking most of the characters in this series are compelling and a lot of people's reasons given for disliking cat/dany/theon/whatever as characters fall flat on their faces. i can understand disliking them as people which is fine. however, the characterisation tends to be complex and realistic and there are very few characters who seem to be poorly drawn. most of the characters people constantly bitch about no longer bother me much; even characters i hate as people like roose and cersei still come across as compelling characters. there are only a few characters like gregor clegane that come across as one-dimensional, and even then there are one-dimensional villains in real life so it's not that big a deal
• what i did skim of this thread looked mostly like people on both sides of the issue talking past one another which is why it got so boring so quickly

there, my 2¢. adjusted for inflation it's probably like $3 but whatever. apologies if any of this wasn't clear, i'll try to clarify if so.

edit:

Theon's a villain. You're not supposed to like him.

adwd spoilerhe starts out a villain, but by the end of adwd he definitely isn't one and it's pretty clear you're not supposed to think he deserves the horrifying torture he receives even after his horrific actions in acok.

[Freya]

Some of you just suck at reading comprehension.

Did anyone say that the reason, the only reason, or even the primary reason why people dislike a specific character is because of sex?

NO.

My reading comprehension is just fine! I'll show you!

My theory is that it's cause Cat doesn't have a dick and many of the other stupid stupid characters do and that somehow makes them less stupid than Cat.

I cringe to think of what the hyper misogynistic Reddit people might think of Cat

Female characters in general get much more criticism than their male counterparts.

Male characters have a longer leash to be stupid and get away with it than female characters.

Then finally you say

How much you let it influence you obviously depends on the person and it's not like I said that's the ONLY reason people might like or dislike characters.

But up until that point you were pretty much mainly saying it was a sexism thing if you look at those quotes. Then even after you say that you go into a tangent about sexism prevalent in media. Then proceed to continue that point in more posts. It was pretty much what you were arguing the past page or so in this thread. Even though people have said that it's her stupid decision you insist that it has something to do with sexism.

It's not all about gender and trying to make it about gender is just a padding it. Her actions were stupid. They were. This isn't about a male character. There isn't a male character who does what she does. This is about Cat and her stupid actions, trying to make it something other than that with the sexism train you can't seem to get off of is silly. The way Martin writes these characters is that they make ignorant decisions. I can't help it if that's how the character is written and that they happen to be female. Trying to put sexist overtones into it is ridiculous. I dislike people because I dislike them. It doesn't have to do with race or gender it has to with being a smurfwit. I can't say for others if it doesn't apply but for me at least it's just cause Cat is a smurfwit. Trying to speak for others saying that is their reasoning, that it does involve gender, is silly. Not everyone dislikes people cause of gender. Can't people just dislike someone because they dislike them? Apparently not. There HAS to be a sexist overtone. Has to.

[Miriel]

You REALLY don't think that unlikable female characters are bitched about WAY more than male characters?

two words: theon greyjoy

imho miriel your views have been more sexist than anyone else in this thread.

Dude, have you even READ this thread? Pretty much all the comments about Theon have been about how the show is doing a good job making you feel bad for him, or how the actor is doing a great job of being a convincingly great asshole. People LIKE him as a villain. Compare the comments of Theon in this thread to the comments about Cat. Seriously. How many people have said the same about Cat? "Wow! Cat did something horribly stupid, but she's doing a good job of showing how desperate she feels!" Yeah, no.

I hated King Robert from the beginning, but from briefly skimming over this thread, I'm the only one who really hated him, and when I posted that, you posted that he's fan-freakin-tastic. Even though he ordered a kill ON A PUPPY.

He is the worst. The worst! Although Ned Stark comes close for actually doing the killing. A PUPPY!!! But people in this thread describe Robert as being hilarious.

And Freya, you kinda proved my point exactly. Every single thing you quoted had to do with the LEVEL of dislike, not the existence of dislike. MORE, LESS, LONGER, DISPROPORTIONATE, AMOUNT, etc. These are words that signify a degree. So how can you quote these things and then say that I'm making it ALL about gender? I'm saying it's a part. I'm saying that I think Cat gets MORE grief than male characters who have done terrible things. Worse things in my opinion than Cat in the show.

I mean christ, Drogo RAPED a main character and he's still well liked. Jaimie pushes a kid to possible death and people still like him. Myself included. I like both characters, and many of the other horrible stupid or evil characters. But Cat gets crapped on, a lot more than those characters, with few people chiming in anything positive. Yeah, I'm the crazy one for suggesting that sex plays a PART in that. Cause there is not a single part of any of the rest of you who MIGHT be influenced by sex, which influences nearly everything. Uh huh.

[Psychotic]

Now you're moving the goalposts. Either Cat is a stupid character or a bad character. You can't have both

ps: king robert could kill a thousand puppies and also turn into a giant bird and still be the best character the show has ever seen

pps: i hope giant bird-robert flaps near you for ruining this once great thread

[Freya]

Then you're entirely missing the point. It is not about gender. IT IS NOT ABOUT GENDER. It is about stupidity.

[Miriel]

Now you're moving the goalposts. Either Cat is a stupid character or a bad character. You can't have both

ps: king robert could kill a thousand puppies and also turn into a giant bird and still be the best character the show has ever seen

pps: i hope giant bird-robert flaps near you for ruining this once great thread

What are you talking about? Cat can be stupid and still be a good character. Theon is evil AND stupid, but he's still a good character.

You really think someone has to like the actions of a character in order to like what they add to a show?

Then you're entirely missing the point. It is not about gender. IT IS NOT ABOUT GENDER. It is about stupidity.

Oh my god, I can't even.