FFXII could have been a masterpiece..

[reinward]

i feel like this game could have been the greatest FF game ever made, maybe even the greatest game ever created! as it stands it is just a good game. i mean, i really liked the plot but what killed it was the pacing and lack of character interaction. there never really seemed to be any small talk. the only way you can really get to know the characters is through dialogue... i just felt like the game lacked enough dialogue especially considering how much dungeon crawling there was... though i will say they did a FANTASTIC job fleshing out the world and NPCs.. pretty much the opposite of the god awful FFXIII

having said that i still really like this game... its my 3rd favorite behind only FFIX and FFX... but i feel like it could have easily been the best

just for perspective heres how i would rate the FF games i've played:

FFIX-10/10
FFX-8.5/10
FFXII- 8/10
FFVII- 7/10
FFVIII-6/10
FFXIII-2/10

[TrollHunter]

The lack of character development in XII really dulled the experience for me. Hell most of the characters didn't even need to BE there. Vaan: Just a tag along ~Penelo: Tagging along with Vaan ~Fran: Tagging along with balthier.
Only Baltheir, Basch and Ashe had anything to really contribute to the story. Which is truly a shame.
While I really enjoy the way-too-long dungeons (no really I do) it's very easy to forget why you're even there before you even reach the half-way point.
Granted I always forget the plot exists when I even play that game now, not because I know what happens... but because the game makes you forget it so easily it's hard to get back into it.
Overall the gameplay and combat keeps it in my favorites, not to mention the stuff to do post-game and all the sidequests/areas to explore.

[The Captain]

I actually thought there was a good deal of interaction between the characters, but what killed the game in the end was the pacing. Some quests were fairly short while others were many hours long in doing, with only a bit of character dialogue thrown in to remind us that yes, everyone is still there and what the goal actually was.

I really enjoyed how vast the world was made to be and how every little nook and cranny had something to explore, but I too feel that just a few more cutscenes with our heroes would have made the difference.

Take care all.

[Jessweeee♪]

"FFXIII is too linear, no exploring!"
"FFXII has so much exploring, the pacing is terrible!"

But yeah, the pacing was a small problem. The first time I played the game I was bored with it because I just couldn't get into the plot, but now it's one of my favorites in the series. It grows on me with each play through, probably for this very reason. This may be why I tend to enjoy the linear titles such as FFX and FFXIII more.

[champagne supernova]

"FFXIII is too linear, no exploring!"
"FFXII has so much exploring, the pacing is terrible!"

I always thought that XIII was an over-reaction to the criticism of XII (which was probably an over-reaction to the criticism of X, thinking about it).

Yeah, XII frustrated me more than anything. I loved playing it and I think I sank more time into it than any other FF besides VIII (my love of VIII is unexplainable even to myself) and I was so excited by the story when I first started playing it. But it just kind of petered out. I think it was the Sandsea that was the first ridiculously long quest where there is literally no dialogue. Then you have to go all the way to the other end of the world, also with minimal dialogue (apart from Fran). I think it was only once they got back on the Phon Coast that the pacing was actually tolerable again. By this stage, I had forgotten what was going on.

So yeah, the world of XII is amazing and I think that if there was some variety in the side-quests, which are mostly mark hunting, it would have usurped VIII as my favourite. Unfortunately, the characters and the story never engaged me and so, when I finished the game, I felt short-changed. And then complained about it while exploring the world some more.

[Dalmascan]

To me, FXII is simply a really, really good concept being applied extremely poorly. Hell, if I didn't hear it from their mouths, I'd say the only reason Vaan was created is to appease the drooling fangirls that love their bishies.

Anyone else think Baltheir should have took the lead?

[Jessweeee♪]

I always thought Vaan was supposed to be more on the ugly side. Like not "haw haw Vaan is ugly" but like, actually ugly.

[Del Murder]

I agree with most all of what has been said. The game really only starred three characters (Balthier, Ashe, and Basch) but they were three pretty strong characters and I liked them all. The pacing was horrible. More than once did I venture on a sidequest, lose interest, and then forget what I was supposed to do to get the plot moving. Literally a year went by and I forgot all about the game. Finally I decided to plow right through it but a lot of magic was lost due to that large gap.

Dungeon crawling is fine when it's worthwhile. Hiking over large areas for one mark is not worthwhile. Mark sidequests just suck ass in general I've decided. It's such a weak way of giving the game a sidequest. Also throw some treasures along the way. FFXII's treasure system sucked and it made the exploring worse. This is not an MMO. I think SE tried to hard to make this game a single player FFXI.

A middle ground between FXII and FFXIII would be a great game. One thing FFXIII had was focus. Focus on character interaction and on getting to the end. FFXII could have used some of that focus. FFXIII could have used some of XII's NPC development and freedom.

[felfenix]

A lot of the problems with the game are really due to corporate interference. Why wasn't there a lot of development and interaction with Vaan, Panelo, and Fran? Because those characters were only in the game at corporate's demand, because they thought Basche, Ashe, and Balthier wouldn't appeal to audiences. Which is ridiculous. The game should have just had a set 3-4 person party, without member swap, like earlier FFs, and at least gotten rid of Vaan and Panelo. Also, the way the game kind of suddenly ends, somewhat randomly and poorly paced, is likely due to Yazmat leaving.

As for the comments on 13 having focus, I didn't feel that way. Just because everything was a straight line didn't make it focused. Most of 13's quest could be completely removed. The whole game is the main characters wandering around, not even knowing their main goal. 13's plot was aimless, until the end, in which you learned that 90% of what you'd been doing was pointless, and you go back to where you started. Where 13 really succeeded over 12, IMO, was character interaction. I liked that the characters in 13 had relationships. They fought, they made up, they grew. Whereas in 12 nobody talked to each other, except for the couple times throughout the game that Ashe told Vaan to STFU.

Del, have you tried playing through 12 without doing any marks? That seems like it would clear you issue with the game up pretty easily. The dungeon crawling in 12 didn't bother me as much as the long periods of just trudging along the only road fighting in 13, hoping the next cutscene, or SOMETHING other than walking straight + fighting would happen. Overall, I thought FF12 was a LOT more focused than the FFs on the NES, in which I would often not even know where to go next back in the day.

My biggest issues with 12 were Vaan, Panelo, Fran, the license grid, and the story feeling random and incomplete at the end. I also didn't like that there was some kind of programming flaw which led to magic being queued, but not physical attacks. If you had two characters casting fire at the same time, they wouldn't both just use it at the same time, but one would just stand there and wait for the other to finish. So it felt like the magic was turn based, while the weapon combat was not, making weapon based healing/damage superior for high end gameplay. Other than those issues, I thought it was one of the better FFs in the series.

[Jessweeee♪]

I don't think the developers would keep characters they thought wouldn't appeal to the audience. I think it's more like, they wanted to throw in a couple that were relate-able to their mostly young audience, and show us the story from their point of view. I mean, it's one thing to write what you thought was a good character that nobody ends up liking, but actually believing a character is unlikeable and making them the focus of the story? It seems to me like it was originally meant to be a four man show, Ashe, Basch, Balthier, and Fran, and no guest slot, because they'd all be out.

[Wolf Kanno]

While it has become common knowledge that Basch was originally the main character, what most people forget, is that Vaan wasn't built from scratch after Basch's role was scratched. His design was actually created before Basch, according to the character designer, though his role wasn't yet solidified, so even if Basch had stayed in the leading role, there is a good chance Vaan would have still been in the game in some form or capacity. Besides, I don't really feel that Fran's role is any different or less important than say... Sabin, Red XIII, Quistis, Freya, and Kimarhi's roles were to their games. Fran at least allowed us to se what was going on with the Viera, and much like all the characters I listed, once their personal story is resolved, they are mostly dead weight in the cast, with no further character development. Penelo and Vaan are really no different, as Penelo's role is about establishing a relationship with Larsa and the party, since she is his contact to Lady Ashe; and Vaan is the typical young dreamer who finally sets off on a real adventure instead of just talking about it.

For me, I really enjoyed FFXII, I can't really agree on the weakness of the characters and story because I feel this is mostly a result of the pacing than the writing. There is actually a lot of dialogue between the characters and the games total cutscene time is actually longer than FFX's which was a title where you tripped over cutscenes every few steps. XII just allowed for their to be more breathing room between the story and simply failed to make the leash short enough to keep the player in check. Had the Yansea section been shorter, and perhaps beefing up the importance of the story segments in between going to Archades and Giruvegan. I don't think people would be whining as much.

While XII is certainly an incomplete game that is marred by corporate meddling and being rushed out of production (though it had been six years already...) I still feel the game came out better than expected under those problematic circumstances. It still came out as an actual ambitious title, with a more thought out world and game design than say its successor...

My main beefs with the game in terms of plot, is the pacing foremost and I do feel the ending is really rushed and a lot of the games narrative and themes go out the window after the Pharos. In terms of gameplay, my only beef is the awful treasure system and poorly designed Bazaar system. I would probably count the Espers as well, but considering I don't really bother with them in games whee they are practical, I guess I dodged the annoyance bullet there. I don't have any real gripe with the Mark Hunts, but I can agree the game could have had a few more mini-games, though hopefully not as crappy as Tetra Master and most of the games that came out of Spira. The Fishing mini-game was amusing though.

[Bolivar]

Yeah, while there's certainly been a lot of "he say/she say" about what exactly happened with Matsuno's leaving, I think maybe we're all assuming too much based on the rumors. The truth is, we probably never will know what really happened and what was changed.

I know this sounds insane, but I really feel like the second time you play FFXII it all clicks with you. You have a better idea of the plot, and when you really get to look at the narrative as a whole, it comes through just how great the story is. I think FFXII was just a big game in every possible way and it was so big that sometimes they made the dungeons too long or forgot to sparse it up. As Wolf said, it had more dialogue than FFX, and if that's true, it shows, again, just how big of a project it was. This really seemed like a game where they filled the disc to the brim, especially considering how compressed the audio is. It's a shame with such high quality voice acting there's a weird filter applied to all the voices.

As far as Vaan, I thought he was a good FF protagonist and I seriously doubt he was made as a pretty boy and they left it at that. To me, the theme for Rabanastre that Sakimoto created really evoked the feelings of being a young man in the city, a combination of freedom and a time of adolescence where life still holds so many wonders. After beating Tactics Ogre, I really feel like this game was the Quest/Ivalice/Matsuno style and vision, in the only time it's ever been fully realized. Kawazu said he was brought on as Producer only to finish what Matsuno started as it was all there ready to be implemented anyway. I'm leaning towards believing him. Outside of the story and larger themes, I wouldn't be surprised if Matsuno just let Minagawa and Ito handle the rest themselves, considering they're each the best in the business at what they do and have been for years.

To me, FFXII already is a masterpiece. I've beaten it three times, which is more than I have almost any other FF; for a game released at the end of 2006 that ain't bad. I beat it once doing a moderate amount of stuff, a near-completionist file the second time, and I loved it so much I did a quick playthrough after that. I honestly can't wait to dive into it again, I'm just hoping they give it the HD-upgrade that's all the rage right now, so maybe they can un-invert the camera controls and with the extra space of a Blu Ray, uncompress those audio files and get rid of that awkward filter.

[Dreddz]

I tend to agree with what you said. The plot failed to balance the political intrigue with the character interaction you would expect from the series. Half of the characters in the game came across as flat and uninteresting as a result.

Still, the exploration, combat and story came together more smoothly than the rest of the series in my opinion. XII comes just behind VII and IX as my favourite in the series. I am eager to return to the game in fact. I still have my mammoth 80 hour save but I only saw the story once so maybe a new play through from scratch is on the cards.

[Firestorm2]

We're talking about Final Fantasy, where the Plot, Characters and Feelings mean Everything.

So, no story? No Final Fantasy.

About the music, no Nobuo Uematsu? No party.

There you have it, Final Fantasy XII, the WORST one of the series.

[Big D]

Personally, I do consider FFXII something of a masterpiece.

I'd like it more, and probably replay it more, though, if there were more character moments and interactions. I think of FFVII as the high point of character development in the FF series - all the playable characters get a lot of screen time, complex interactions, and strong arcs. Seeing that kind of development in FFXII's cast would've been fantastic.

The way XII plays out, though, it's a bit more like an historical epic or saga, where the world-changing events are more important than the thoughts and feelings of the people witnessing them. That's all well and good - a different approach, a different atmosphere, a change from what came before it. I just think it was a bit of a waste to have fantastic characters like Fran, Balthier, Basch, Cid and the Judge Magisters without delving a little deeper into them.