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Thread: Kefka Sucks. Kuja Is Better

  1. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by VeloZer0 View Post
    I wouldn't necessarily call Kuja smarter than Kefka. Though he was quite a bit off his rocker nothing he did indicated a lack of intelligence.

    IMO Kuja went through the entire game trying to find a way to outsmart Garland, with multiple failed attempts. Kuja seemed to be on a much more winning trend in his escapades.
    Just because Kuja is smarter than Kefka, doesn't mean Kefka is an idiot. I never said that.
    But along FFIX, Kuja manipulated lots of people. That makes him smarter than Kefka in my book.

    Question: Do you know why Kefka succeeded in destroying the planet?


    Answer: Because the planet didn't fight back.

  2. #47
    pirate heartbreaker The Man's Avatar
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    And Kefka didn't manipulate lots of people?
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  3. #48
    Recognized Member VeloZer0's Avatar
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    I don't really see any basis to assume Kuja is smarter. If you want to be nit picky, he couldn't even figure out he was mortal.

  4. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Man View Post
    And Kefka didn't manipulate lots of people?
    .....Not that I remember. Could you please refresh my memory?

    Question: Do you know why Kefka succeeded in destroying the planet?


    Answer: Because the planet didn't fight back.

  5. #50
    pirate heartbreaker The Man's Avatar
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    Most notably, it's pretty clear that he spends the entire first half of the game manipulating the Emperor. He plays the loyal minion for most of the game and then as soon as he has what he wants he kicks his former master to the side. He and the Emperor pull a bait-and-switch on the party twice, as well, which makes the fact that the Emperor didn't see it coming from one of his own minions all the more expert a case of manipulation.
    Last edited by The Man; 04-25-2011 at 02:38 PM.
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  6. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by VeloZer0 View Post
    I don't really see any basis to assume Kuja is smarter. If you want to be nit picky, he couldn't even figure out he was mortal.
    How would he figure that out? Does he seem like the dare devil type to you?

    All the Genomes have long lifespans and indeed the regular ones have no concept of time. Kuja seems to be the odd one out because he was a temporary model.

    My guess is he made an incorrect assumption based on the rest of his species.

  7. #52
    Recognized Member VeloZer0's Avatar
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    Long lifespan =/= immortal. Though it isn't unreasonable for him to not know his exact lifespan it is clear from his dialog and actions that he had never given any though to the concept he only had a limited lifespan.

    Kuja knew Zidane was created to replace him, but never sought to fully understand why. Nor did he ever give serious thought to his own limits. Though he may have been highly adept at manipulating others knowing your own limits and capabilities is an important part of how intelligent you are.

  8. #53

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    He was well aware of his own limits given the fact he spent the first half of the game scurrying around hoping Garland didn't notice him. Then when Garland did catch on to his plan he becomes obviously distraught and desperate. He even went so far as to emphatically declare his own power was nothing to Garland's.

    While being ignorant of the fact he will eventually die can be somewhat chalked up to Kuja's narcissism, he's not completely detached from reality. He recognizes he has limits. I think he just believed that more power = breaking those limits. As I noted earlier his search for power was a way to be who he wanted to be. If he had understood the fact that no amount of power could realize that ideal there'd be no game as he'd have no motivation.

    That is my interpretation anyway. There's nothing to say definitely one way or the other.
    Last edited by Forsaken Lover; 04-25-2011 at 08:28 AM.

  9. #54
    Recognized Member VeloZer0's Avatar
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    I'm not trying to knock Kuja as being un-intelligent, I just don't think there is any discernible reason to consider him more intelligent than Kefka. I consider Kuja to be one of the better FF villains (costume design notwithstanding).

    I always felt that how good a villain is can be measured by how much he adds to the game as a whole. And I feel Kefka added more to FF6 than Kuja added to FF9. Both are integral to the story (Kuja probably much more so) but whatever reasons you bring in terms of motivation/back story/intelligence it doesn't change the fact the I was always looking forward to any time Kefka was on screen. All of those elements are just and ends to a means.

  10. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Man View Post
    Most notably, it's pretty clear that he spends the entire first half of the game manipulating the Emperor. He plays the loyal minion for most of the game and then as soon as he has what he wants he kicks his former master to the side. He and the Emperor pull a bait-and-switch on the party twice, as well, which makes the fact that the Emperor didn't see it coming from one of his own minions all the more expert a case of manipulation.
    That's not manipulation, that's waiting for the right moment to strike. The emperor was already an evil and ambitious man who wanted the power of the Espers(and the Triad) and went after it. Kefka didn't influence/manipulate Ghestal to be that way, or to do those things.
    Also, both times Kefka and the emperor pull a bait-and-switch on the party, the credit for the idea/plan is allways given to Ghestal(by Kefka himself no less).
    In the end, Kefka just went along with the emperor, following his orders and plans, while waiting for the right moment to strike. There was no manipulation.

    Kuja on the other hand actually manipulates people. Brahne is after the Eidolons like a power-hungry bitch because of him. He summons Bahamut at Alexandria, knowing that it would force Garnet and Eiko to summon Alexander(permiting Kuja to take control of him through the Invincible, his plan all along), therefore, manipulating Garnet and Eiko.
    Sorry, but Kuja seems smarter to me.

    Question: Do you know why Kefka succeeded in destroying the planet?


    Answer: Because the planet didn't fight back.

  11. #56
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    His manipulation of Brahne also affected just about the whole world as well. Wasn't the Iifa tree a bridge to converting the souls from Gaia to Terra? If so by causing the war he was also having Brahne and thousands of others to contribute souls to Terra, but I don't think any of those souls reached it because of the party destroying the monster inside the tree?

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Crystal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Man View Post
    Most notably, it's pretty clear that he spends the entire first half of the game manipulating the Emperor. He plays the loyal minion for most of the game and then as soon as he has what he wants he kicks his former master to the side. He and the Emperor pull a bait-and-switch on the party twice, as well, which makes the fact that the Emperor didn't see it coming from one of his own minions all the more expert a case of manipulation.
    That's not manipulation, that's waiting for the right moment to strike. The emperor was already an evil and ambitious man who wanted the power of the Espers(and the Triad) and went after it. Kefka didn't influence/manipulate Ghestal to be that way, or to do those things.
    Also, both times Kefka and the emperor pull a bait-and-switch on the party, the credit for the idea/plan is allways given to Ghestal(by Kefka himself no less).
    In the end, Kefka just went along with the emperor, following his orders and plans, while waiting for the right moment to strike. There was no manipulation.
    You've completely misread my entire post. I never said that Kefka convinced Ghastla to do those things. I said that Kefka convinced Ghastla he was a loyal minion when he spent the entire game waiting for the right moment to strike against him. How is that not manipulating him? Ghastla trusts Kefka above and beyond the concerns of anyone else; he clearly recognises that Kefka is regarded as an inhuman monster by the rest of the world because he explicitly says so at the banquet with the party, and yet, despite the fact that doing so is intrinsically harmful to the perception of the Empire and thus conducive to rebellions against it, he still gives Kefka free rein to do whatever he wants, because he's convinced that Kefka would never do anything to interfere with his plans, or at the very least that Kefka's not powerful enough to stop him. That sounds like pretty smurfing expert manipulation to me. And it's not just "waiting for the right moment to strike." It's called subtly guiding the Emperor to a position where Kefka can do what he's been dreaming of doing for quite some time - namely smurfing up the world to cause as much death and destruction as possible. Or do you think it's just coincidence that Kefka is trusted enough to be there on the Floating Continent with the statues? It's not like he was needed there at all.

    Furthermore, you misinterpreted my reason for bringing up the Emperor's manipulation of the party. My point was not that these were necessarily Kefka's idea, but that the Emperor himself was using exactly the tactics Kefka was using on him: convincing the rubes that he's loyal, when he really was plotting for his own ends. The fact that he can't see Kefka using exactly the same techniques on him shows that Kefka is experienced enough at manipulation to fool the master.
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  13. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Man View Post
    You've completely misread my entire post. I never said that Kefka convinced Ghastla to do those things. I said that Kefka convinced Ghastla he was a loyal minion when he spent the entire game waiting for the right moment to strike against him. How is that not manipulating him? Ghastla trusts Kefka above and beyond the concerns of anyone else; he clearly recognises that Kefka is regarded as an inhuman monster by the rest of the world because he explicitly says so at the banquet with the party, and yet, despite the fact that doing so is intrinsically harmful to the perception of the Empire and thus conducive to rebellions against it, he still gives Kefka free rein to do whatever he wants, because he's convinced that Kefka would never do anything to interfere with his plans, or at the very least that Kefka's not powerful enough to stop him. That sounds like pretty smurfing expert manipulation to me. And it's not just "waiting for the right moment to strike." It's called subtly guiding the Emperor to a position where Kefka can do what he's been dreaming of doing for quite some time - namely smurfing up the world to cause as much death and destruction as possible. Or do you think it's just coincidence that Kefka is trusted enough to be there on the Floating Continent with the statues? It's not like he was needed there at all.
    Furthermore, you misinterpreted my reason for bringing up the Emperor's manipulation of the party. My point was not that these were necessarily Kefka's idea, but that the Emperor himself was using exactly the tactics Kefka was using on him: convincing the rubes that he's loyal, when he really was plotting for his own ends. The fact that he can't see Kefka using exactly the same techniques on him shows that Kefka is experienced enough at manipulation to fool the master.
    I admit I misinterpreted some things in your post, but the point still stands.
    Yes, Kefka is smart enough to fool the emperor, I never denied that, but that's all he did. And it wasn't even manipulation, giving the fact Ghestal's goals(the Espers and the Triad) were not influenced by Kefka's words/actions but by the emperor's own ambitions. Kefka tricked/fooled Ghestal, he didn't manipulate him.

    Kuja however manipulated a queen, and many other people. That's more than Kefka did, therefore, I think Kuja is smarter than him.

    And again: Just because Kuja is smarter, doesn't mean Kefka isn't smart either.

    Question: Do you know why Kefka succeeded in destroying the planet?


    Answer: Because the planet didn't fight back.

  14. #59
    pirate heartbreaker The Man's Avatar
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    You're still missing the fact that keeping Kefka around was, far from actually helping the Emperor achieve his goals, arguably extremely detrimental to the Emperor's case. It would have been obvious to anyone with half a brain that Kefka was a loose cannon who was liable to go off at any time. But the Emperor doesn't give a . It should also have been obvious to anyone with half a brain that Kefka's presence could very easily be argued to inspire rebellions that arguably would not have happened if he had been locked up the way he should have been. The Emperor was quite certainly evil, but he never caused suffering that did not directly contribute to his goal of accruing more power for himself. If he caused suffering, that suffering was simply a byproduct of the fact that he wanted to control the entire world. For Kefka, it was obvious from as early in the game as the poisoning of Doma that causing suffering was the whole point, for one thing because we see him he explicitly admit as much right before causing it, but even without that clue it should have been obvious - his soldiers get that he's extremely screwed up without ever having seen him admit as much. Having someone who's ostensibly on your side going out with the sole goal of causing suffering is a lot more detrimental to one's cause than simply having suffering be incidental to the accrual of power. If convincing someone to give you free rein to do basically whatever you want when your actions are repeatedly clearly detrimental to the cause being advanced isn't manipulation then it's obvious you just have a different definition of manipulation than I do.

    And I never said Kefka manipulated more people than Kuja did. I simply said that your argument that he does not manipulate people is false.
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  15. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Man View Post
    You're still missing the fact that keeping Kefka around was, far from actually helping the Emperor achieve his goals, arguably extremely detrimental to the Emperor's case. It would have been obvious to anyone with half a brain that Kefka was a loose cannon who was liable to go off at any time. But the Emperor doesn't give a . It should also have been obvious to anyone with half a brain that Kefka's presence could very easily be argued to inspire rebellions that arguably would not have happened if he had been locked up the way he should have been. The Emperor was quite certainly evil, but he never caused suffering that did not directly contribute to his goal of accruing more power for himself. If he caused suffering, that suffering was simply a byproduct of the fact that he wanted to control the entire world. For Kefka, it was obvious from as early in the game as the poisoning of Doma that causing suffering was the whole point, for one thing because we see him he explicitly admit as much right before causing it, but even without that clue it should have been obvious - his soldiers get that he's extremely screwed up without ever having seen him admit as much. Having someone who's ostensibly on your side going out with the sole goal of causing suffering is a lot more detrimental to one's cause than simply having suffering be incidental to the accrual of power. If convincing someone to give you free rein to do basically whatever you want when your actions are repeatedly clearly detrimental to the cause being advanced isn't manipulation then it's obvious you just have a different definition of manipulation than I do.

    And I never said Kefka manipulated more people than Kuja did. I simply said that your argument that he does not manipulate people is false.
    Did it ever cross your mind the reason Ghestal kept Kefka by his side, was because Ghestal needed him? After all, Kefka was as cruel as him(probably even more), and wouldn't object to some of his more morally ambiguous orders, like the honorable Leo and Celes would. Ghestal needed Kefka to do the dirty work no one else would agree to do.

    Or it could be exactly as you said.

    In the end, we don't know the real reason for Ghestal to keep Kefka by his side. It was never revealed in the game.
    Therefore, you cannot use it as evidence of Kefka's manipulation skills, because your evidence is speculation.
    Last edited by The Crystal; 04-27-2011 at 12:42 AM.

    Question: Do you know why Kefka succeeded in destroying the planet?


    Answer: Because the planet didn't fight back.

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