Final Fantasy vs. Other Square RPGs

[Bastian]

Yeah, I meant mostly on looks.

But... that doesn't make sense. FF 1-6 have more in common with DQ 1-7 than DQ 8 has to do with FF in general.

The only thing that DQ 8 has in common with FF is that like FF it moved into full sized 3D models. But that doesn't make it any MORE like FF than DQ 6, because you could say "Like FF 6, DQ 6 was a standard sprited overhead perspective RPG released for the Super Famicom."

[Del Murder]

Look, all I know is that I enjoyed DQVIII a lot more than any other DQ game mostly because I didn't find it boring or tedious much like those games can be. I felt it looked beautiful, had interesting characters, and a decent story that wasn't predicated on 'going to town X and solving its problem, then to town Y and solving its problem, then to town Z...' So it didn't feel like DQ for me, it felt more like the PS FF games since they shared those qualities.

[Wolf Kanno]

I'm going to have to side with Bolivar and Del on this one. DQVIII brought not only a greater emphasis on graphics and character models (a common trait of the FF series) but it also brought a heavier emphasis on character interaction and reaction. While I generally enjoy DQ plots, its a muted experience compared to more story telling based JRPGs. Your main character is always a blank slate, and even your other party members tend to go completely silent after they join you. Much of the story is often told through NPCs, which FF hasn't really done since FFIII. DQVIII changed that by having more cutscenes and dealing more with your party's feelings about the circumstances that come about. For instance, the little bratty prince you have to help get his rite of manhood for. In DQVIII you know pretty damn well how your party feels about this, and part of the drama and amusement of this story segment is watching your party keep Jessica from killing him. Whereas in DQIV or DQVII, when your party is introduced to story events like liberating the Tsarian Princess' kingdom or the events of Dharma Temple in VII, your party is mostly silent about it, except maybe one or two lines. In the old games, the reactions to the story and events is suppose to be the players reaction whereas the FF model that DQVIII follows is actually about watching the strong characters react to it, cause its a more cinematic experience. The ability to see character models react also greatly helps cause even FFIV's sprites had more expression than DQVII's models do. Once again, this is not a bad thing nor does it mean the story is any worse or better for it, cause the DQ games have tried to stay in a traditional RP mode of play for decades whereas FF went the route being more like watching films. Both have their flaws and merits and it just comes down to personal preference.

[Pike]

I remember back in the day a lot of people said Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars was a legitimately great RPG and one of the best on the SNES. (which is saying something)

Never played it myself and the fanfare seems to have died down.

This is my favorite RPG of all time, and thus my favorite Square game.

Granted, I haven't played nearly as many RPGs as most of you guys, so I may not be making a fair assessment here. But Super Mario RPG has been my favorite for years.

Re: OP's discussion about people making sweeping assumptions about FF (yes, I know this post is from April ) - this happens with pretty much any popular series; it's a resentment issue. If, say, FFVI had been unattached to the series, I bet all the haters would be showering it with accolades.

[Mirage]

Can't really think of too many that are actually better than every single final fantasy game in existence, but Chrono trigger are better than most FFs, at least. Maybe Seiken Densetsu 3 too. I would probably rate games like Xenogears lower than most FF games.

[Flying Arrow]

I would probably rate games like Xenogears lower than most FF games.

I'm not trolling when I say I'd probably put Xenogears lower than FFX and FFXIII.

[Bastian]

DQVIII brought not only a greater emphasis on graphics and character models (a common trait of the FF series).

...no. A common trait of the FF series post FFVII.

This is the problem I was pointing out: most of the pre FF VII games have a lot more in common with the DQ series than does DQ VIII. The issue is only that there are MORE FF games than DQ games. So, sure there have been more full-sized 3D models in FF than in DQ, but that's because there were only seven DQ games prior to a DQ game with 3D models. Just like (well, almost) there were only six FF games before they moved to 3D models. But then FF started pumping them out a lot faster (to their detriment, in my opinion).

[black orb]

>>> Now with FF13, anything is better than FF..

[Wolf Kanno]

DQVIII brought not only a greater emphasis on graphics and character models (a common trait of the FF series).

...no. A common trait of the FF series post FFVII.


This is the problem I was pointing out: most of the pre FF VII games have a lot more in common with the DQ series than does DQ VIII. The issue is only that there are MORE FF games than DQ games. So, sure there have been more full-sized 3D models in FF than in DQ, but that's because there were only seven DQ games prior to a DQ game with 3D models. Just like (well, almost) there were only six FF games before they moved to 3D models. But then FF started pumping them out a lot faster (to their detriment, in my opinion).

Not really, the series has always been about making better graphics, the SNES era FFs are more distinct and graphically better than their DQ counterparts.

DQIII (NES) FFIII (NES)


DQV (SNES) FFV (SNES)


DQVI (SNES) FFVI
darkdream.jpg nzoz12.jpg


You cannot look at these side by side comparisons and tell me that Square's FF titles are not graphically superior. FFIII could almost be a screenshot from FFIV, a console jump. So while its easy to blame VII and the PS1 era for going the graphics whore way, its really been there since almost the beginning.

[Bastian]

Wow, you actually took the time to do that. Point made. But my point is that because FF puts out twice as many games as DQ, so it would almost be more fair to compare DQ VI with FF III. But by that same token you could compare DQ VIII with FF IV and that wouldn't make much sense... hm.

Anyway, graphic schmaphics. The DQ team clearly STILL doesn't really focus on graphics. Look at DQ IX... it's clearly an intentional step back from VIII and back into familiar territory. We'll have to wait and see what DQ X on the wii is like, but I can be certain it won't aim for anything super fancy. DQ has always held onto its roots and thus has made nearly no missteps. If only FF had charted a similar course...

[Del Murder]

Well that's exactly why we say DQVIII was the outlier and why it is more like the newer FF games than the prior DQ games (and even DQIX). The way I've always thought of DQVIII is that it was the FFVII of the DQ series. It took it in a new direction with character interaction and a more centralized story, updated the graphics to be some of the most stunning things I saw on PS2, and added more character customization (with skill points) than we've seen (which before was either class change or no customization). I did not feel like I was playing DQ when I played it, which I could not have said for DQVII, or even IX, which, as you admit, took the series 'back' a step (which I'm sure hardcore DQ fans liked but I didn't like). I loved the game. It was progressive, a word that used in the same sentence with Dragon Quest would get you odd looks. I wish IX built on it rather than going back to the 'blank slate' characters and sidequest-based storyline.

[Roogle]

I liked a lot of the older titles that came out during the last fifteen years.

One of my favorites was the Chrono Trigger series. Chrono Trigger had a small amount of unreleased content that made it compelling for a number of different reasons, and Chrono Cross was a number of different concepts originally and I think it would be a shame to leave the series on those old notes.

I liked Secret of Mana and Secret of Evermore, too, but Square Enix is not doing a good job with the Seiken Densetsu series and Secret of Evermore will likely never see anything else with it.

[Bastian]

Well that's exactly why we say DQVIII was the outlier and why it is more like the newer FF games

That would have made sense, but the word "newer" wasn't in there. It was just "DQ VIII is more like FF" in general.

or even IX, which, as you admit, took the series 'back' a step (which I'm sure hardcore DQ fans liked but I didn't like).

And I should mention that the "back" I mentioned was in context to going back to its roots. Not "back a step" as in being worse than VIII because I liked IX a hell of a lot more than I liked VIII.

[Bolivar]

We're all making similar points but I think DQ series and its older games don't get enough credit. Whereas Final Fantasy has used tools from other media such as 'the stage' (FFVI) or 'the camera' (FFVII) to tell a story, DQ has been about showing what this medium can do, a kind of "games for games' sake."

There's no better example of this than DQIV: Chapters of the Chosen. You actually play a segment as a dude where you wake up every day and go to work at a weapon shop. People come in to buy some things, some come in to sell some things and at the end of the day you go home to your wife, wanting more out of life. The other chapters aren't as unexpected as that, but playing as dancing sisters on the run, a princess who sneaks into a tournament, and an old knight in a JRPG version of a detective story were all good for their time as well.

I'm playing DQV right now and some of the things that happen in this game are absolutely epic, like we're talking Chrono Trigger epic and then much, much more. I'm finally seeing why so many people on here cite this game as the best in the series. There's a lot of times where I just have to put my DS down because it's hard to go back to fighting Slimes after some of the stuff that happens in this game. I played an SNES fanslation before the DS version and I have to say this was a game that was way, way ahead of its time.

That brings me to the idea that the protagonists before DQVIII were the "blank slate" model. Sure, DQIV's Hero isn't too involved, but there's tons of scenes about how he's been prepared for this his whole life, and heading to Zenithia was a mind trip all its own, especially when the stuff comes up about (SPOILER)your mother. And DQV? Hoo, boy... The things that happen around the main character and the way his life is shaped are really, really, insane. I honestly feel like the silent protagonist method doesn't necessarily diminish the potential for character reaction, because YOU'RE going through the emotions of these things yourself. And even then, you still get some choice, such as (SPOILER)who to marry, and how incredible the build up to that is in itself.

The other characters don't seem short on reactions, either. I don't remember with the original version, but in the DS version, you always have the ability to talk with your party and I've been surprised to find that they have something new to say on almost every screen transition. So I can't verify if DQVIII was the first, but there's been plenty of story involvement and character reaction in the previous games.

And this may not have to due with story, but we may as well talk about the one way in which Dragon Quest has ALWAYS trumped Final Fantasy: Balance. Now, FFV might be the exception to this. But in almost every FF the battles hardly matter at all, it's just spamming the A (or X or O) button and then using potions after battle, which become ridiculously inexpensive because of the horribly overstated amounts of gil you're amassing. In DQ the dungeon crawls have their own mechanics to them and you sometimes have to think when is a good time to stop and head back. Because the medical items lose potency once you're a good chunk into the game, you really have to think about MP conservation and how you're going to heal your teammates. Especially considering MP becomes crucial for figuring out how to suppress larger groups of enemies or different group combinations. When you level in DQ, you notice your party getting stronger, the enemies getting a little easier, and you definitely feel that sense of real accomplishment that you're getting somewhere in that game's world.

Compare this to FFVI with Edgar's machine bow spamming countless hordes of enemies, screaming like Rambo as he's mowing down line after line of foes like this was FFVI: Vietnam! Sure, the game looked pretty for its time and it has some awesome "moments," but where's the GAME? Dragon Quest V has the "moments" and the game to back it up, so where do we get the notion that Dragon Quest has always "lagged behind" Final Fantasy?

That said, I'll always be an FF guy, and I'll probably always love those PSOne FFs a little more, but I just don't think Dragon Quest gets the recognition it deserves, because there's some seriously smurfing ridiculous things that happened in those games.

[APolaris]

IMO, FF wins the two absolute top spots, but some other Square games are better than some FF games I've played.

If I were to list all of the Square RPGs I've played, along with how I'd probably rate them on a 100 scale, then...

Final Fantasy VI (100)
Final Fantasy VII (99)
Chrono Trigger (96)
Secret of Mana (95)
Final Fantasy VIII (95)
Secret of Evermore (94)
Final Fantasy X (94)
Seiken Densetsu 3 (90)
Kingdom Hearts 2 (88)
Final Fantasy IX (88)
Super Mario RPG (85)
Kingdom Hearts (82)
Final Fantasy V (80)
Legend of Mana (75)
Chrono Cross (72)
Final Fantasy XII (70)
Final Fantasy X-2 (30)

There are a few companies that are now owned by Square that produced some excellent RPGs or RPG hybrid type games in their own time. Among these are a few I'd put in my top games I've ever played. These include Illusion of Gaia (95), Ogre Battle 64 (96), and Dragon Quest VIII (in the process of playing, so far I give it about 94).