Is ATB Dead?

[ShinGundam]

I find stricktly turn based system incredibly boring. And yes, FF13 did indeed have a sort of ATB, too bad the AI characters ruined it.

I've never understood that mentality. ATB is basically turn based, but you have to watch a bar fill up between turns, so it actually takes longer. In turn based, you just cut straight to the turn, without any periods of everybody doing nothing, waiting for a bar to fill up. ATB, to me, was the aspects of turn based, combined with the worst aspects of real time.

But this is the best aspect of ATB systems, it did allow you to enhance your own pace unlike turn based (beside FFX) by using accessories or increase your speed stats or auto-mated haste and moving from character menu to another seamlessly.

[Slothy]

That's true, but another thing that I like about atb was that when you play active mode rather than wait, there's pressure introduced to decide your actions quickly before you fall behind your enemy. You don't get that sort of pressure in a purely turn based system. And since you can usually alter the battle speed I don't see sitting around waiting as being a huge deal. With the speed set appropriately you'll have just enough time to act if you don't get flustered.

[ShinGundam]

That's true, but another thing that I like about atb was that when you play active mode rather than wait, there's pressure introduced to decide your actions quickly before you fall behind your enemy. You don't get that sort of pressure in a purely turn based system. And since you can usually alter the battle speed I don't see sitting around waiting as being a huge deal. With the speed set appropriately you'll have just enough time to act if you don't get flustered.

Good point, It is more organic than FF1~3's turn based system.

[VeloZer0]

I find we tend to be somewhat lacking in terminology to describe turn based systems ala FF1-3 and turn based systems where speed determines turn order, ala FFT and FF10. The dialogue seems to get confused, as they are both very different with their own pros and cons. I personally like the speed turn based most of all, but rate the party turn based quite a bit behind atb.

[Slothy]

Too true Velo. For the record I was referring to turn based styles like FFI-III when I was talking about regular turn based games in my last post. Stuff like FFT and X where speed plays a role in how often a character gets a turn are brilliant when pulled off half decently. More standard turn based systems without that speed element can be too predictable sometimes if the rest of the gameplay doesn't offer adequate challenge/depth to compensate for not being able to affect turn order. It definitely is strange we don't have a name for those systems though.

[Del Murder]

I find we tend to be somewhat lacking in terminology to describe turn based systems ala FF1-3 and turn based systems where speed determines turn order, ala FFT and FF10. The dialogue seems to get confused, as they are both very different with their own pros and cons. I personally like the speed turn based most of all, but rate the party turn based quite a bit behind atb.

I agree! FFX and FFT turn based systems were the best. It allows the speed stat to be a factor other than determining who goes first during the round (which most of the time is random anyway), and also let's spells like haste and slow be a factor.

[felfenix]

I find stricktly turn based system incredibly boring. And yes, FF13 did indeed have a sort of ATB, too bad the AI characters ruined it.

I've never understood that mentality. ATB is basically turn based, but you have to watch a bar fill up between turns, so it actually takes longer. In turn based, you just cut straight to the turn, without any periods of everybody doing nothing, waiting for a bar to fill up. ATB, to me, was the aspects of turn based, combined with the worst aspects of real time.

But this is the best aspect of ATB systems, it did allow you to enhance your own pace unlike turn based (beside FFX) by using accessories or increase your speed stats or auto-mated haste and moving from character menu to another seamlessly.

Yeah, but no matter how fast the bar fills up, it can't get faster then having the turns just go instantly one after the other. As for the "realistic pressure" I honestly just prefer a full real-time game (like Versus XIII or KH) for that kind of thing. I thought it was pretty lame in XIII how I couldn't have one of my party members move out of the way, or move away from the rest of the party when targeted with an AOE. The closest thing to ATB that I really like is FFXII's system, as that was seemless and allowed movement.

[Slothy]

Yeah, but no matter how fast the bar fills up, it can't get faster then having the turns just go instantly one after the other.

You know, I'm not actually convinced it takes longer at all now that I think about it. Yes, you have to wait for a bar to fill, but if you play in active mode, your enemies bars and your other party members bars will fill while you make a selection. So there won't be that much waiting before you get to actually input something, particularly since your characters ATB gauges probably won't sync up all of the time, if ever. Not to mention the bars continue to fill while attack animations and enemy turns play out. So in theory it may not be as fast as something instantly taking it's turn after the last character did, but in practice, much of the waiting happens while selecting actions, watching attacks play out, and during enemy turns. Things you're forced to watch anyway, regardless of whether it's an ATB or turn based system. If the ATB speed is properly tuned to the player you won't notice any wait time at all, while still keeping the pressure to act before you fall behind your opponent which a turn based system can't replicate at all. The only real difference is that since you can see the bar filling you're more aware of how long you have to wait than you'd otherwise be.

I thought it was pretty lame in XIII how I couldn't have one of my party members move out of the way, or move away from the rest of the party when targeted with an AOE.

I'm not really sure why you brought this up when it has nothing to do with the discussion about ATB. AOE spells being stupid in FFXIII has nothing to do with the ATB system, but with the fact that Square are morons when it comes to game design and never noticed that AOE spells are stupid when you can't move your characters on the battlefield. So rather than having some spells hit a single target and others hit all targets, they put in AOE spells that sometimes miss characters, but only if you're lucky enough to have them randomly move far enough from your other characters.

[felfenix]

You know, I'm not actually convinced it takes longer at all now that I think about it. Yes, you have to wait for a bar to fill, but if you play in active mode, your enemies bars and your other party members bars will fill while you make a selection. So there won't be that much waiting before you get to actually input something, particularly since your characters ATB gauges probably won't sync up all of the time, if ever. Not to mention the bars continue to fill while attack animations and enemy turns play out. So in theory it may not be as fast as something instantly taking it's turn after the last character did, but in practice, much of the waiting happens while selecting actions, watching attacks play out, and during enemy turns. Things you're forced to watch anyway, regardless of whether it's an ATB or turn based system. If the ATB speed is properly tuned to the player you won't notice any wait time at all, while still keeping the pressure to act before you fall behind your opponent which a turn based system can't replicate at all. The only real difference is that since you can see the bar filling you're more aware of how long you have to wait than you'd otherwise be.

Yeah, but let's be real. When have you ever needed to anything remotely tactical in an ATB Final Fantasy? FF10 was the first FF in a LONG time in which you couldn't just spam your strongest attack. If I really want "pressure" I'd want it to be something skill-based. Does anyone really have trouble pressing X when the command window opens up?

I'm not really sure why you brought this up when it has nothing to do with the discussion about ATB. AOE spells being stupid in FFXIII has nothing to do with the ATB system, but with the fact that Square are morons when it comes to game design and never noticed that AOE spells are stupid when you can't move your characters on the battlefield. So rather than having some spells hit a single target and others hit all targets, they put in AOE spells that sometimes miss characters, but only if you're lucky enough to have them randomly move far enough from your other characters.

It's the fact that ATB doesn't do anything but combine the worst aspects of turn-based and active. It has the button mashing simplicity of active games, with the static failings of turn based games. It's not like you even have to react at specific times, to dodge or make an attack. Nope, you just press X when the bar fills up. The can tape down the X button, and the game plays itself.

I find it hypocritical when people bash FF13's system, or KH, but love something like FF7. At least in KH, you have to move around, while doing no more button mashing than you do in most FF games. In FF13, the autobattle cut out the middle man, but if you removed the autobattle, it was just literally ATB. At least you had to be quick with paradigm shifts. 5-starring the last Cieth Stone mission is a lot better at what you claim ATB's benefit is than anything in FF7.

As for FF13's system being poor luck, that's not entirely true. If you had everyone at ranged, and Lightning was being targetted with an AOE, you could have her run into melee range. It's still stupidly limited, and there's no reason to not just have free movement.

I fail to see what benefit ATB has over something like FF12, which still had precious bars filling up, but at least allowed movement and seemless combat (instead of standing there clumped together for an AOE, and being teleported to the battle screen). If you value pressure, then something like KH, or even FF12, achieves that so much better.

However, a game like FF10, which is full turned based, replaces the "can I button mash faster than a computer" from ATB, and allows for more tactical and precise play. ATB really doesn't have anything going for it other than nostalgia. A lot of people, probably yourself, grew up playing ATB JRPGs, and it's natural for people to cling to the familiar.

[Slothy]

Yeah, but let's be real. When have you ever needed to anything remotely tactical in an ATB Final Fantasy? FF10 was the first FF in a LONG time in which you couldn't just spam your strongest attack. If I really want "pressure" I'd want it to be something skill-based. Does anyone really have trouble pressing X when the command window opens up?

This isn't an argument against ATB though, it's an argument against battle systems that have little depth and player agency: something that is separate from ATB all together. And I would certainly agree with you. It's been quite a while since an FF game required, or at the very least, made it worth using strategies other than mash X to win. FFIV, FFV, and FFIX probably being the only real examples, but even those could be improved. But again, that's not arguing against ATB, it's arguing against something else entirely. There is absolutely no reason that an ATB system can't require more strategy than that, just as there's no reason a turn based game can't either. Ironically, your using the example of FFXII later in your post practically makes that point for me.

It's the fact that ATB doesn't do anything but combine the worst aspects of turn-based and active. It has the button mashing simplicity of active games, with the static failings of turn based games. It's not like you even have to react at specific times, to dodge or make an attack. Nope, you just press X when the bar fills up. The can tape down the X button, and the game plays itself.

Again, ATB does not necessitate button mashing simplicity in a combat system. ATB is nothing more than the system of waiting for a bar, representing your characters turn, to fill before you can take actions, thereby depleting the bar and starting the cycle over again. In essence, it is a system for determining turn order, not the whole battle system (stats, abilities, immunities, etc.) unto itself. All you've done is argue that it has been used in games with some fairly shallow combat in the past. But the same argument can be made for a completely turn based system, real time system, or anything else you can think of. That does not mean that a system which exists separately from the rest of the battle system is itself inherently flawed.

I fail to see what benefit ATB has over something like FF12, which still had precious bars filling up, but at least allowed movement and seemless combat (instead of standing there clumped together for an AOE, and being teleported to the battle screen). If you value pressure, then something like KH, or even FF12, achieves that so much better.

As I said above, FFXII essentially does use the old ATB system for determining turn order. They simply added the aspect of real-time movement on top of it making movement around the battlefield a more key element than it had been before. Like I said, all this example really does is show that when you combine ATB with a battle system filled with valid strategic options and a decent difficulty level, it works very well.

However, a game like FF10, which is full turned based, replaces the "can I button mash faster than a computer" from ATB, and allows for more tactical and precise play.

I just want to touch on your mentioning of FFX as well, because although I like the concept behind the system, it's really not a great battle system overall, and certainly didn't remove the button mash simplicity of previous games, though it did give you plenty of time to think about when you were going to press X to win. It essentially was just a simple, straightforward, and highly transparent game of rock paper scissors. Learn the enemy types and which character is strong against them and you've pretty much got the game figured out. There may be some manipulation of turn order to gain an advantage, but usually only in the tougher boss fights. The majority of battles didn't require more than the occasional switching of a character and pressing the X button a few times.

The battle system had a lot of good ideas going for it, but in the end it was too simplified, and I'd even argue that it was almost too transparent about what everything's weakness was. And once you knew something's weakness you really weren't going to lose.

[felfenix]

The battle system had a lot of good ideas going for it, but in the end it was too simplified, and I'd even argue that it was almost too transparent about what everything's weakness was. And once you knew something's weakness you really weren't going to lose.

The same can really be said of most Final Fantasies. What 10 did, at least, was require a variety of abilities and party member control/switching, as opposed to easily getting away with nothing but "Attack" from beginning to end. Instead of just waiting for a bar to fill up, you could plan tactically around the turns of enemies. A step up from not knowing or caring anything about the enemy, because you can mash attack for the win.

But simplicity is a requirement of ATB, as seen by all the complaints about FF13. People complain about the autobattle... but when you tell them not to use it, to do everything manually, they cry it's a ridiculous request, that it's too hard and complex (lol) to do quick enough (in their opinion).

ATB, on the other hand, offers nothing. In full-real time games you can move around. I didn't mention "watching bars fill up" as a positive of FFXII's battle system, but the seemless combat and movement. Games like Dragon Age improved on FFXII's combat, and removed the silly fill-up bar.

People complain that the ATB of FF4-9 is dead, and it should be dead. It's a battle system that was just a very slow whack-a-mole. You watch a bar fill up, and press X. It was by no means the end-all-be-all of RPG battle systems. The idea of going to some battle screen and waiting for a bar to fill up is beyond dated, and at the time it was in it's prime was still nothing more than an attempt to compensate for limitations.

Other battle systems have places they can go. ATB has nowhere to go except removing what defines it, or adding silly gimmicks like FFXIII's. It's only clung to for the sake of nostalgia by younger FF fans.

[ShinGundam]

Honestly, what is wrong about using base attack as choice for most battles ? IMO, nothing wrong with that it is still a valid choice. It is not like using any kind of other elements like support magic, better equipment, standard magic, summons , limit breaks, status effects requires the player to sit down and make a complex series of charts to understand how it works, it is their to make you play more efficiently not to stress you. The only reason people choose not to is either out of sheer stubbornness or i didn't use it in X game so I refuse to give them a chance in Y game.

@Felfenix
Do you think people who like ATB of FF4-9 want tension from every encounter? Most of time they like it because it is more relaxing, simple and easy to get into it.

[Slothy]

But simplicity is a requirement of ATB, as seen by all the complaints about FF13. People complain about the autobattle... but when you tell them not to use it, to do everything manually, they cry it's a ridiculous request, that it's too hard and complex (lol) to do quick enough (in their opinion).

The complaints around not using auto-battle in FFXIII stem from the fact that auto-battle makes the optimal choices 99% of the time making manually entering commands pointless and little more than a way to make work for oneself, and the battle system itself is so bloody fast that actually entering the commands quickly enough to not get slaughtered is beyond the capabilities of the average player. Hell, I have some damn fast reflexes and it was pushing it for me when I tried it. It had nothing to do with complexity since FFXIII is about as simple as FF's come in terms of battle systems. The closest thing to a meaningful choice you'll actually make in battle is recognizing which Paradigms you need to switch to.

ATB, on the other hand, offers nothing.

You've yet to offer any evidence or examples to back this up. It's easy to say that many FF's require you to just mash attack, but there are exceptions such as FF5, and it's not really a criticism of ATB anyway. ATB is simply a semi real-time method for determining turn order. It is not the combat system as a whole, nor does it require simplicity or any other absurd notion you've attributed to it. There's nothing preventing an ATB system from requiring more than mashing the X-button to win, or including movement and positioning in a battle.

In full-real time games you can move around. I didn't mention "watching bars fill up" as a positive of FFXII's battle system, but the seemless combat and movement.

No you didn't mention the ATB as a positive in FFXII, but you have maintained quite a few times that ATB requires simplicity, or leads to battles being a button mashing affair with no depth whatsoever. FFXII being one of the deeper, more complex, and legitimately challenging JRPG's of the last decade kind of runs counter to that argument though.

Other battle systems have places they can go. ATB has nowhere to go except removing what defines it, or adding silly gimmicks like FFXIII's. It's only clung to for the sake of nostalgia by younger FF fans.

Again, ATB is nothing more than a method for determining turn order in a turn based game. To say it has nowhere to go is foolish as it implies that every possible battle system you could build around it has been done. FFXII proved you can do more with it than anyone had seen before by integrating it into a seamless battle system with real time movement, opening up new strategic options on top of the games ability systems. I disagree that there is absolutely nothing more that can be done with it, particularly when ATB offer the sort of time pressure it does when balanced well, as well as the opportunity to work in strategies based on manipulating turn order.

Honestly, it seems as though all of your arguments come down to saying ATB sucks while blaming it for balance issues which are separate from the ATB system itself. Once again, it's a method for determining turn order, and if you tune the battle speed correctly, you will not spend a lot of time sitting and waiting. If you did, then there are two explanations: either you're much faster than the average player and the developers didn't want to put off new players by making things too fast and overwhelming, or the speed wasn't balanced properly. Neither is a problem inherent in using ATB. Issues of balance such as being able to spam attack to win aren't even caused by a game using ATB. How you determine turn order is not going to determine how simple a game is by itself, especially when a pure turn based or real time system can easily suffer the exact same problems. You have to look at battle systems as a whole in games with issues to determine the cause, and I can't think of any game in the FF series which is broken and over simplified because of ATB. Such a thing doesn't exist.

[felfenix]

But the ATB held back FF12's battle system. As I mention, Dragon Age did what FF12 did far better. If you think FF12's battle system was "one of the deeper, more complex, and legitimately challenging" battle systems, then I want to know what you shallow, simple, and easy. ATB is an entirely outdated mechanic, and it should be dead. It's well on it's way. You've yet to make any case whatsoever for it's necessity or usefulness, beyond clinging to nostalgia. What benefit is there for a system like ATB over something like Dragon Age's battle system, or FF10's, or KHs? ATB simply underperforms in every area you mention. You're the one trying to argue for why it shouldn't die.

@ShinGundam

You really thought FF10 or Kingdom Hearts offered tension in every encounter and were hard battle systems to get into?

[VeloZer0]

What benefit is there for a system like ATB over something like Dragon Age's battle system, or FF10's, or KHs?

The benefit of ATB is that it offers some of the strategy allowed by a turn based system while still retaining some of the urgency of a real time based system. It's just like a half way on the scale between turn based and real time. Individual mileage may vary.