Perhaps the greatest cutscene of all time: Genesis v Sephiroth

**Shaibana** · 05-14-2011, 05:20 PM

btw that reminds me,..
i know it way off topic but i hopes some1 could quickly answer my question (a)
In Advent Children cloud comes to see Rufus when he turnes to Rude and says: 'do i feel sorry for you'
whats the story behind that? :o

**Skyblade** · 05-14-2011, 09:49 PM

If Sephiroth swinging his sword could cut through the entire Mako Cannon cleanly without even touching most of it (his sword isn't that long), then how come when he went totally psychotic in the Mako Reactor he didn't cut through a single one of those little monster tanks?

**Wolf Kanno** · 05-14-2011, 11:58 PM

You know I have nothing better to do, so of course I'll reply.

Originally Posted by KaiserDragon

Bad choice or not, yes or no, do you ever see any of the Shin-Ra troops or Barret or Dyne or any of the other multiple gun users reload at any point during the game? no, you do not, so logic (if it can be applied in a game with Fantasy in its title) dictates that an alternative must be made, how other then what I suggested before, do you suppose that that can keep on firing non stop all the time?

You never see anyone reload but if you watch the enemies fire carefully, bullet shells do come out of their guns.

A) You never see a story sequence where someone empties their clips, and B) Pointing out we're using game mechanics, there is no need to see reloading if it doesn't serve a purpose. We never see the party eat or go to the bathroom, but it doesn't mean they didn't, since the world has both.

The other thing to note, is you never see people reload weapons in movies unless it serves a story purpose (we need a conversation between the heroes so they get close together and reload while the gunfight rages onward, we need to raise the tension of the film so someone mentions they only have one more clip, we want a dramatic finale, so we show the hero only has one bullet left) so its not like any entertainment medium stays true to some rigid idea of full realism.

I believe that they wished to avoid the fight with Shin-Ra (I assume your talking about when Cloud Barret and Tifa storm Shin-Ra HQ) so I say to that the following:

Originally Posted by Game Script

Tifa: (to Cloud) ……What's wrong?

Cloud: I didn't want to start a ruckus till we saved Aerith. I should have
known that was impossible though…

Additionally, I doubt Cloud wants to kill every single soldier, these were once his comrades, would you want to be responsible for that many death's wanting to avoid all those battles is obviously the better choice, and besides, if Cloud were not able to take on the hundreds and thousands of soldiers that the Shin-Ra used to fight weapon, you saw how inneffective they were, the Mako cannon had to finish off Sapphire Weapon, yet some how, Cloud and 2 other fighters can manage to take down Emerald, Ruby and Ultima Weapons, this is to me, the power that standard weapons (swords, fists, spears ect) have.

There are several times the party is running from gunfire, going after the large materia in Junon has a few times where the party is running from gunfire as well as when they tried to leave after Shin-Ra botched the public execution. There are quite a few moments, but considering in the Compilation, Zack can fight several battalions of Shin-Ra troops with air support single handedly, I can't fathom why Cloud would ever care about fighting large groups of people.

Also, Cloud never once seems to have regrets killing Shin-Ra troops, hell, he was willing to cause industrial accidents that killed actual innocent people for money, so I can't really take the idea he felt a bit of remorse and caring for former allies, of many he probably didn't even know.

As for the WEAPONS, nothing in the game's story, Compilation, and Ultimania Guides has ever suggested the party beat the WEAPONS. They could fight off Diamond but it was the Sister Ray drawing on the power of Mako that killed it. Ultima, Emerald, and Ruby never even show up until after Sephiroth's barrier has been smashed and considering the game throws you in there at the start of the Disc 3 into the Northern Crater, and after the big fuss Cloud made about saying your final goodbyes, I don't really imagine the party left so they can raise Chocobos and get super materia to beat down three monsters the game had already stated would disappear as long as Holy was released. So its very reasonably to assume Holy did the job and not the party.

Besides, the party technically didn't beat the WEAPONS, Summoning Bahamut Zero to orbital strike the WEAPONS or summoning a bakers dozen of spiritual knights the size of skyscrapers a few dozen times was what really took them down. We should give credit where it's due.

If guns were ineffective they wouldn't be standard issue? no, guns were issued because (imo) they are easy to use and don't require large physical strength like say... a sword or a spear would? ok

But that's why they are standard issue cause not everyone is skilled. They are great weapons for the average layman, hence standard issue. Even Vincent uses them and he really doesn't need them considering his real powers but he's just as effective with his guns as those swords and spears you keep mentioning.

With regards to them doing "serious" damage to Barret's and Dyne's arms, how would you suppose that the game fit Barret's and Dyne's back story about how they hate the Shin-Ra, about how Barret isn't exactly suited to use any other weapon other then a gun.

So your argument is that guns are completely ineffective weapons in the world of VII, until they serve a story purpose, and then the work just as you would expect... I don't think it works that way.

Yes, Zack is killed by a huge amount of gunfire (not several shots) as evidenced in CC and of course it was in the game script that he should die. the fact is, when Cloud first jumps off of the train he is attacked by two Shin-Ra grunts... how much damage did these "guns that are as serious a weapons as of those in real life" the answer is 4hp... 4, if they were as serious as guns in real life then Cloud would jump off the train and the Shin-Ra grunts would kill the entire Avalanche crew in a matter of minutes. Don't forget the flashback is what Cloud recalls after being dosed up on Jenova cells.

Well first off, I don't count anything in the Compilation as canon so don't try to use CC's ending as evidence cause that was completely ridiculous if you ask me and I happen to really like Zack, but cause BoB might still be playingI can't stand by the fact they made him "Dynasty Warrior" his way through the Shin-Ra army to eventually die. In the actual VII, Zack doesn't get back up after being shot in the head and give Cloud a sappy speech about being his "legacy" crap. I prefer him dying senselessly cause it fits with VII's theme of things happening unexpectedly like Aerith's death, not some grand drawn out last heroes moment.

I like his death being simple and senseless cause Zack is one of the most important figures in Clouds past so to have him go out like that, seems rather fitting. He died in the middle of nowhere, by what appears to be a handful of Shin-Ra troops, only a few miles from where he wanted to be. It makes for a better tragedy, whereas CC makes it into a heroic sacrifice, which is ironic cause Nomura and Kitase wanted to get away from that when they made VII. For the rest of the argument, head down...

Something we agree upon xD so I'm confused, you say guns are as real and serious a weapon as in real life then you argue that they are not.

You miss the part where I say that guns are treated realistically within the story, game mechanics are a completely different story cause they are not really based on anything. You don't think I actually believe that every random encounter should be treated as something that happened? Hell, I don't even believe that mechanics like "leveling" happen in the story. If VII was a movie, beyond the materia he gains over the film and Limit Breaks he created through different and let's just assume dramatic fashion, the Cloud who enters the Mako Reactor at the beginning is physically the same as the one that fights Sephy at the end in terms of capabilities, he doesn't gain the ability to take more hits or kill people faster.

Leveling and damage output has no bearing ever in a story, and I will never understand why people can't seem to understand why both need to be treated as different circumstances. I don't believe Ultima in IX does 9999 damage, I know it can seriously smurf my party up cause I did watch it level the surface of the planet and I can't fathom how anyone would survive that.

Bringing this back to Cloud and the troops in the beginning, Cloud and the party still deal with the rising power of guns and other weapons as the game progresses, cause this is all game mechanics, if guns worked in the game like they did the the story, Cloud and Barret never would have been able to leave the Mako factory. Also, no one wants to play a game where your handed a blade and everything else has guns that can instantly kill you, doesn't make for a fun experience.

To tie this back up to the original point of all this, while I feel guns work realistically in VII, I don't necessarily feel all mechanics in the world work like the real world (obviously) and I do believe that Cloud certainly has extraordinary physiology that allows him to do things no mere human can, this is not even counting the use of Materia. I believe Cloud can take a bullet, probably several cause I'm sure his body can easily take more punishment than a normal human could, but I do feel their are still limits, hence why I don't feel Cloud could survive being shot in the brain or heart. I still feel it would kill him like any other sap which is why watching him get shot in the face in AC and the amount of damage he took was just breaking his glasses, especially since every other thing on the planet has no issues hurting him.

So you concede that Sephiroth may very well be able to rend the scenery but Cloud who we are with the entire game cannot, the same Cloud that beat Sephiroth twice, once during the game and once during the film.

Even Kitase and the Ultimania makes it perfectly clear that Sephiroth is far greater than Cloud and anyone else for that matter, and that both defeats are caused by Sephiroth underestimating Cloud. Hell, chances are still possible that Zack is stronger than Cloud.

Yes I concede the point that the fight scene if not the entire film was made to make the fans of ffvii happy, and seeing the fight between Sephiroth and Cloud imo was awesome, so it had the desired effect, it wasn't about basing the film in realism (like how some cells can make Kadaj into Sephiroth) but making the fans happy, to which I say that if the fight was based on the game principles it would not have been as good in my opinion, no they had to liven it up by making it into a fight of titanic proportions instead of Sephiroth: attack, Cloud attack too, rinse and repeat.

Livening it up is one thing, going over the top TO THE MUTHA smurfING EXTREEEEEEEEMMMMMMMMMMMEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!! is what AC did. Even the development team in interviews has conceded they went overboard for the project. If you like that kind of stuff, be my guest but I never felt like VII needed to be pumped up like that, it feels to me like the VII creators decided VII wasn't good enough as is and needed to pumped up cause it wouldn't have cut it. I personally feel the over the top elements cheapen the entire experience cause it shows the film has to rely on flash over substance but that's just my opinion.

Your exact words were "(despite Jenova never showing she had wings or traits of wings) " all I was pointing out was that you were mistaken, that she did indeed have wings, or if you like "the traits of wings" for all we know the first form of her body had wings, now she is where she is after being a "Calamity from the Sky" she no longer needs her wings, or perhaps the first form we see of her (for all intents and purposes, that was he first form) and she evolved into a more powerful form that ha no use for wings.

I don't believe those are wings though, they are two masses of flesh and organs that happen to be justting out of her back, for all we know, its actually her fileted back muscles from Hojo and Gast experimenting on her. As for the Calamity from the Sky bit, that has more to do with the fact the game specifically states she came to VII's world via meteor as a transport. She's a calamity and she came from the sky via meteor, hence the name.

We never get to even see her true form, for all we know she doesn't have one since she shape shifts. I also don' see how shape-shifting as a Cetra to infiltrate them is going to work if she has "wings" jutting out of her back.

Of course it had

ty writing, its basically a massive fan service, but then I never expected The Shawshank Redemption or Romeo and Juliet, I expected great graphics, awesome battles and death defying stunts, so I got what I paid for, if you don't like the film then that is of course your right, but in my opinion the film was exactly how I wanted it to be.

Well as long as your happy.

Every film has its differences, like I said I got exactly the film I expected to get, arguing that "they couldn't do that before" I feel doesn't apply here as one is a game with game based experiences the other is a film, tell me, if you were the director of FFVII:AC then what would you have done with the film? make all the battles based on the ground with no jumping or flying through the air.

Yeah, I wouldn't have them flying in the air. Believe me, you don't want to get me started on what I would have done but unlike you I feel VII the game established rules of the world and I feel those rules could have worked in an action film without "pumping it up to 11". Hell, several fights in AC I felt were or could have been acceptable. Its some of the final battles that are over the top and the John Woo stuff could have been toned down.

Like many of my other reasoning's I feel this point has already been covered, yes "it looks "kewl"" yes they have never done this in the game, and despite many people complaining about the changes that they made, Squeenix did change the, so what we have now is Cannon so saying "I don't like the changes etc" is your own personal choice, regardless what we now have is what Squeenix deems cannon so saying anything other then that is pointless, Cloud can chop through buildings and Sephiroth can fly through the air.

All this was done so Squeenix can make money, this is also true about FFVII so calling it a knock off is pointless, they did what they did to maximize profits, after all thats why they make games ect. to make money.

Yes, but they won't be getting my money anymore cause they pull this

.

Off topic, curse you for making me type all that, its like the posts I used to make back when I had the time and inclination to do so lol, please if you do reply to every point I make then that is of course your right, but if I don't reply its most likely to be lack of effort not acquiescence to your views about my views lol.

Lol, its cool. Its been awhile since I got into one of these paragraph debats myself.

**Carl the Llama** · 05-15-2011, 01:03 AM

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Stuff you saidYou know I have nothing better to do, so of course I'll reply.