Raids! All... two of them...

[Rostum]

All I can say is start reading up on Guild Wars 2 development blogs, there's a lot of cool things happening with the genre. I don't think graphics were ever an issue, well except that FFXIV's art direction didn't translate from the concept art as well as I had hoped it would - just my personal opinion there.

Anyways, just as an example I read/watched something rather cool about Guild Wars 2. They have underwater combat, and I'm not talking about just adding z-axis movement to the combat (since that's been done to death in recent years). It's where your abilities adapt to being under water, as well as the enemy's.

As for the other games coming out, they will be in their own "startup" stages and will face their own problems. They will be MMO's, after all.

While this is true, I don't think I've ever bared witness to the major smurf up that FFXIV launched when compared to all the betas and launches I've experienced in the MMO genre. Generally most MMO's deliver what they promised during development, and most just have issue with server stability and balancing, not fundamental core game play mechanics (most have playable and stable open betas too).

[Loony BoB]

But isn't Guild Wars 2 a totally instanced thing? The thing that makes me want to play MMO's is the totally open world where I pass by people like I would in the real world, sometimes strangers, sometimes people I've started to notice more often and wave to, sometimes friends.

[Ouch!]

Guild Wars 2 is a fully persistent world MMORPG.

You're really just kind of sticking your head in the sand when it comes to the rest of the genre. There's nothing wrong with that. If you like Final Fantasy XIV, that's great! But go out and read up on some of the other titles in development. I would start with Guild Wars 2 and Star Wars: The Old Republic, because those are the biggest AAA titles coming out in the next year-ish. Also look at games like Rift and Blade and Soul for ideas of the different directions that the genre is pulling.

I'm thinking of it this way: you like walking everywhere, but your constant defense of Final Fantasy XIV's obvious shortcomings is like you're suggesting that we shouldn't develop the car. Maybe ignorance is bliss, but I truly believe that no matter what they do to fix up FFXIV at this point, Square Enix has fundamentally failed to break into the mainstream MMORPG market.

[Loony BoB]

Guild Wars 2 is a fully persistent world MMORPG.

You're really just kind of sticking your head in the sand when it comes to the rest of the genre. There's nothing wrong with that. If you like Final Fantasy XIV, that's great! But go out and read up on some of the other titles in development. I would start with Guild Wars 2 and Star Wars: The Old Republic, because those are the biggest AAA titles coming out in the next year-ish. Also look at games like Rift and Blade and Soul for ideas of the different directions that the genre is pulling.

I'm thinking of it this way: you like walking everywhere, but your constant defense of Final Fantasy XIV's obvious shortcomings is like you're suggesting that we shouldn't develop the car. Maybe ignorance is bliss, but I truly believe that no matter what they do to fix up FFXIV at this point, Square Enix has fundamentally failed to break into the mainstream MMORPG market.

I'm not sticking my head in the sand, it's just that nobody has been feeding me information on the new titles! Even when you mention them I still have to bug you to actually tell me which ones they are and which ones are doing what. Obviously the gaming sources I go to don't delve into MMO's as much as they do other games, because with some of them I've never heard of them at all and others I know little about. I'm not unwilling to learn, if that were the case I wouldn't be asking you questions about them. It's a bit hard to learn about these up and coming MMOs when people bring them up saying "they will be better" without actually telling me why unless I push them for it. >=P

It sounds like GW2 is going to be dramatically different to GW and if that's the case, good, because while I liked the cost model for GW I was never keen on what I read about the heavily instanced side of it. I know FFXIV is putting in a chunk of instanced stuff too, now, and personally it's not of massive interest to me. The biggest thing for me about MMOs is the social side rather than the other things. I enjoyed FFXI because of the people I met, the people who would pass by and so on. Some of the best fun I had was not actually spent leveling but rather wandering around talking to people who were leveling, not being part of their official party but just chatting away with them while they did their fighting. I've done that on FFXIV while Danielle was partying with people, too. There's no statistical benefit in it for me, but I enjoy the social benefits (if it can be said that there are social benefits to playing in an MMO ).

I've never really been a fan of Star Wars. Something about it doesn't really appeal to me... more of a Star Trek guy, but I hear the Star Trek MMO sucks. I've looked into Rift but from what I've been told, the rifts - while initially feeling awesome - eventually become more and more annoying. I'm not keen on being forced into action. I like to do things in my own time when I can. Oh, and I looked up Blade & Soul but from what little news I can access at work, it sounds like it has pretty much what every other MMO has. Perhaps more gaming-specific sites (which are all blocked at work) will have more information. *dunno*

At what point did I say we shouldn't develop the car? My defence isn't saying that FFXIV should stay as it is, my defence is saying that it's moving in the right direction and nobody is paying a subscription. It's effectively in a very long beta and until the game reaches the point of subscriptions, it's still going through big changes and therefore shouldn't be judged until it's got to the place that it wants to be. If that happens to be an old-school style, so be it, but I know that FFXIV made a pretty different approach when it first came out and either the players weren't ready for it or the game couldn't get it done right, but in the end when everyone could heal and everyone could fight at the same time, people actually started missing the old style of tank, healer, damage dealer. I know I definitely did. When people have jobs, I don't know why but it feels a lot more fun. This probably explains why I enjoyed Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory a lot more than I enjoyed Halo 3. It was shoddy graphics, it was an old game, but being able to take on roles made it so much more fun for me. I love having a job rather than being told I can do everything with one class. I look forward to the introduction of jobs (and hopefully that means healers, damage dealers and tanks, with maybe a few twists for support) because it just works for me.

But I am open to other ideas if they turn out to be a lot of fun, and I am very interested in what changes are expected in the MMO world. I'm just not going to buy every MMO and try it out, I simply can't afford that. I can't play a game that's not available to play, obviously, either. So it's just down to what news I can find, and even if the news is good, the release date is often unknown for these games so if it's going to be released in 2013 then... well, you get the idea. I'm not saying FFXIV is going to be the best MMO ever, I'm just saying that, at the moment, looking at the games available, I don't see any reason why the game can't eventually be seen as a good one when you consider how much time the development team are willing to invest in it and the solid starting position they have already. Yes, it has flaws, but the devs are working on those and finally it seems that they are being given the time they need to really get things moving. I do agree that they shouldn't have released so early, that they should have listened to the fans more, etc. etc. but at the same time that was Tanaka who had his fingers in his ears, while Yoshi seems much more open to the thoughts of the community. New producer, new game. This is Yoshi's game's open beta. Let him have his chance.

I'm not defending it blindly, I'm saying you shouldn't dismiss the future version of the game as crap without playing it or giving it a chance to actually become that future version of the game. They are starting where they need to start as they need to get the battle system changed before they can realistically make end-game content. I'm sure the end-game content will come, and if it's good, then obviously that's one less problem.

I believe in criticism and I actually do criticise the game in other quarters. It just seems I'm very defensive of the game here because you're being so immensely dismissive. I like to think I'm fairly neutral to the current game (I don't currently play, so obviously I don't think it's great) but optimistic about the future game. You seem to be negative to the current game and have already confirmed it in your head that the future game will be bad. If it will be, okay, but let it happen before you make that decision rather than making assumptions.

EDIT: Just read that GW2 won't have a healer class either. I hope they don't go so far as FFXIV did, because it really does take something special away from an MMO as far as I'm concerned. It seems they too are going for the solo-friendly option and all that did for me in FFXIV was make me solo more. I miss the slow realisation that I was going to have to party up if I wanted to get anywhere. I am one of those kind of people that does need to be forced into that sort of thing. =|

EDIT: omg I Iceglow'ed

[Del Murder]

No, you used paragraphs. You've Wolf Kanno'd.

Let me try to sum up this thread:

BoB: Man, walking sure is fun! It will be even more fun once they finally give me roller skates.
Ouch: You know if you want to go faster you could just get a car, right? You just got to go two towns (no pun intended) over to get one.
BoB: Well how am I supposed to know that? No one's driven one up to my house yet!

[Loony BoB]

I woudn't say we have a car out there yet, but a few bicycles. Which aren't actually out, either, they're just under development. I've raised my eyes at word of the bikes, but they aren't out yet and don't have a release date and/or have little information revealed about them. Some of them don't even seem to have wheels and look a lot more like shoes than a bike. But it's possible they will turn out to be a bike all the same. In the meantime, I'm still going to hold out hope that not only will the bikes turn out okay but also that the shoes I've already paid for will also turn out good.

[Rostum]

I'm not sticking my head in the sand, it's just that nobody has been feeding me information on the new titles! Even when you mention them I still have to bug you to actually tell me which ones they are and which ones are doing what.

Now now. If you are content with FFXIV that's fine, but if you want to get in this discussion you should at least take an interest in MMO community and news websites to get up to speed with the genre.

Why do we have to give you that information which is already easily available?

On the issue of being more interested in the social aspect, I'd have to hand it to FFXI for always being acknowlegded around the MMO community as being one of the best during it's golden years. Hopefully FFXIV does and is living up to that reputation.

[Ouch!]

It's not my job to give you a treatise on the current direction of the genre. If your news on MMORPGs is lacking, I suggest starting with the articles at Online MMO and MMORPG Gamelist, News, Reviews and Community at MMORPG.com. It's a pretty solid jumping off point that will give you up to date information on all the MMORPGs currently active or in development.

I guess my feeling is this: the only thing that Final Fantasy XIV has going for it right now is potential. There's potential that Yoshi-P will be able to pull the game out of its own ass long enough for it to be interesting. There's potential that the job system could offer a new spin on classes and diversify the game play in an interesting way. However, all I've got to base my opinion on right now is a number of poor business decisions and ten months of painfully slow development meant to correct those decisions. The only things we've seen resolved are UI issues. I don't think that Square Enix has done anything to deserve optimism yet and almost everything to deter it.

[Loony BoB]

If you are content with FFXIV that's fine, but if you want to get in this discussion you should at least take an interest in MMO community and news websites to get up to speed with the genre.

I simply don't get information about MMOs for the most part when looking on the websites I use for gaming information. The ones that I do get information on are generally not detailed. I wasn't aware of the MMO-specific news sites until I read the post Ouch! gave above. I thought they were just detailed on normal gaming sites much like RPGs are more detailed on normal gaming sites than they are on "RPG-specific" sites (which these days are generally dead).

Why do we have to give you that information which is already easily available?

I can't access most gaming sites (even EoFF's frontsite is blocked) while at work which meant that at the time of posting I simply was unable to get the information myself. It was not possible. All I have is Wikipedia, which from what I read on there did not tell me anything that stood out as incredibly unique. So all I could do was post based on my current situation. But yeah, as I said, I didn't know about the MMO-specific sites. I've read about Rift a lot beforehand and I've read about Guild Wars 2 details on a minor level but I was always under the idea that GW2 was "Guild Wars 2", ie a highly-instanced game.

But yeah, I do respect that my knowledge is lacking in MMOs but at the same time I am trying to find information on other games and I do have my interest earned on some level by many other MMOs - but let's face it, if they aren't a game that is effectively a reinvention of FFXI (the best MMO experience I've had) such as FFXIV is, I don't want to throw my money at something to find out that it sucks. So I wait for the reviews on other games. So far, I haven't heard of a new MMO that has actually come out and been raved about. I was really interested in Rift but some people pointed out things that they did not like about the game and I realised that those reasons were very relevant to my playing style, so I decided to opt out of that one. When GW2 is released, I am sure that I will take an interest - I'm also sure that certain EoFFers will at least poke Danielle and I towards the game anyway (hi Bert ).

As for the other games, if they really take off and revolutionise things and people start flooding them with rave reviews then I'll certainly be interested. I just want to have certain things that I can tick off about them - firstly, to have a friend who is also willing to play so we can game together (at least at the start before I meet others, much like I did with FFXI) and secondly to be able to play "my way" - ie, walk around a world without having to fight sometimes, tag along with parties that I'm not actually part of just to talk to them while they battle, things like that. Proper open world MMO rather than hugely instanced. Maybe that's not the big thing going forward, but that's what I'm interested in. Not a completely social-only game, obviously, as I do like my crafting and battling, but I like to be able to choose what I do rather than be restricted by "only parties can join this instanced dungeon and this is really the only way people fight things, so..." - but then, they are adding instanced stuff to FFXIV, too, so I'll have to see what happens there...

On the issue of being more interested in the social aspect, I'd have to hand it to FFXI for always being acknowlegded around the MMO community as being one of the best during it's golden years. Hopefully FFXIV does and is living up to that reputation.

FFXIV is not nearly as social as I would have liked it to be. Of course, I'm comparing it to FFXI and RO where in both cases I joined an already-established group of people in a linkshell/guild/whatever and thus had people to talk to (and their friends, too) from the get-go. FFXIV has had a bunch of EoFFers but the lack of reason to stay for most people meant that it never really got far. Meeting new people in FFXIV is also far more difficult as nobody invites you to parties because to be blunt, you're not needed. You can solo all the way to top rank in this game. I don't like that. I'd rather I was forced into partying and that people would IM me asking to party with them once in a while, and I would accept and get to know the people. There isn't even an icon for seeking in FFXIV. It's really bad.

[Ouch!]

I think your concerns over instanced content are unfounded. Making end-game and dungeon events instanced is the most definitive way to secure a pleasant experience for those involved. People grow weary of competition between players in PvE environments. This was a major fault of Final Fantasy XI's end-game. Because--until recently--almost no endgame was instanced, you were often either competing with other players for enemies (as in Sky and Sea) or for the zones (as in Dynamis). This became extremely tedious, especially when many battles took a long time and lots of preparation.

Instancing specific events is usually a good thing for most of the people involved. It may not fit your play-style as someone who enjoys being a casual observer, but it's superior for everyone participating in just about every way.

[Loony BoB]

Nuts.

EDIT: I wonder if some game might allow for non-fighting people to tag along as people who are simply unable to fight.

[Ouch!]

Today's Letter from the Producer is exactly the kind of thing I find problematic in Final Fantasy XIV's development. They're announcing Patch 1.18 as the "first major step" toward the new Final Fantasy XIV, which shows the type of shape the game was in beforehand. More importantly, they're going to be revising guildleve content. More more importantly, they've been doing that for the past couple patches towards balancing it for party game play. But now they're making it solo content? Without revealing plans for additional party-based content?

This is the kind of change that needs to come later when there are plenty of things to do. Make major changes to existing content when you've added other stuff to keep the players busy.

[Loony BoB]

I thought the raids were going to be the new "main party content" thing. And the new quest hubs or whatever they are. Both, I think, are due in 1.18 - although I'm not 100% sure about the quest hubs. I think they are, though...

I'm glad the guildleves are being "stepped back" as them being the key quest thing was one of my biggest gripes about the original FFXIV. I just didn't like them. The only reason I used them constantly was the sp bonus, but I would much rather have done regular quests for the same thing. I like going to NPCs and having discussions with them (well, one-sided conversations, anyway), not having a little card that says "this is what you need to do." So the less I see of guildleves, the better.

Still, as you said, it's the taking away of something which is one thing, the replacing of that thing is entirely another. So I'll have to wait and see how the new content looks. For now, all I'm interested in is the new battle system. I don't expect that isn't to do with battle stuff until around 1.20, which is a shame for me as I'm personally more interested in the stuff that isn't directly to do with battles. But I'll just have to wait.

[Rostum]

I must admit, I guess I'm just not willing to accept this game at this time. After so many years of looking forward to even the smallest announcement, it was a major let down. While I had a great time through the 8 years or so I spent on FFXI, I guess I just wasn't looking for more of the same.

I'm glad they are stepping away from guildleves being a major focus. Whilst a good idea in theory, it turned out they were really tedious and not at all interesting. I also much favour talking to NPC's for quests over reading a card, as you do BoB.

I hope that dungeons in general are more interesting than just fighting monster a, b and c and then moving to the next section and repeating until you reach a boss. It'd be cool to have more event driven situations that add to the story and force you to think on your toes whilst also taking away from the grind.

I'm personally more interested in the stuff that isn't directly to do with battles.

It's a shame Myst Online didn't work out. It was actually a really nice game that was largely focused on puzzle / problem solving teamwork and other social aspects, and literally had no combat.

[Loony BoB]

Well, I like some combat. xD But yeah, I get where you were going with it, and agree regarding the raid dungeons. I'm not optimistic about them being amazing (for me), but I guess for those playing who prefer battling (and that seems to be most MMO fans) it's something to really look forward to. I look forward to it out of interest more than excitement, and I mostly hope it'll be awesome if only because it means they can focus on other things. Realisitically, there will be a month at least of adjustments following the release of 1.18 since it's a new battle system and all, and then in 1.19 or 1.20 we'll see jobs, and then after that other things will start to appear. So I have a bit of a wait on my hands.