The Returners

[Jiro]

So are you, so I don't know if you can really gloat.

[G13]

Who's gloating? I'm just being a dick.

[demondude]

I'm pretty big on necrophilia so run your asses away from The Returner thread.

[Iceglow]

I'm pretty big on using hand grenades to even the odds

[The Man]

well this is smurfing awful. Mothersmurfers better avenge me.

[NorthernChaosGod]

You misunderstand.

You're smurfing dead.

I like to be spanked.

[Del Murder]

The bullets came fast and furious, and we took many losses. But the ULTIMATE WEAPON is too valuable to be kept on the front lines. He stands vigilant ever by my side, in the deep recesses of the Returner caves.

NCG was shacked up with one of his whores so he missed the whole ordeal.

RE, the assassin, used her powers of stealth to get away with nigh a scratch.

Edge7, the rookie, was gravely wounded but yet recovers.

Bunny, Chris, The Man, Vivi, and Agent Proto (looks like his luck ran out) weren't so fortunate.

[NorthernChaosGod]

Their deaths shall be avenged!

EDIT: Apparently not by me.

[Rebellious Eagle]

Because you were too busy with your whore. Tsk, tsk.

[Carl the Llama]

Let's go with your titles if we're going to be nitpicky.

Final Fantasy VII - A 3D knockoff that heavily borrowed ideas from other games, mostly SoM, FFVI, and Chrono Trigger. If you owned an SNES, VII was mostly a "been there done that" experience, with some cool cutscenes and a heavy dose of anime. Hell, if you were watching what was popular in Japan at the time, it only adds to the "been there done that, got the T-Shirt" feel of the game. Its big plot twist is the main character is a whiny little bitch. tit, VI starts with a whiny bitch and it ends with her owning a big pair of brass balls

Heavily borrowed idea's from previous games? I assume here you are talking about the FFVII Limit break system, saying it borrowed heavily from the system in VI is like saying a Cigar borrowed heavily from a roll up, the Limit break system is so much more advanced, the Materia system was completely unique, and if it is the story you are talking about, what story has not been used again and again and again, its like saying Mars bars borrowed from... Lion bars because they are both chocolate.

Legend of the Dragoon - Is frankly not that good, its got cheesy VA work, a combat system that is more frustrating than fun, a terrible plot.

Not that good? it seemed to be quite successful on GameFAQ's with an average review score of 8.5... which tbh is a great score imo, sure the voice acting wasn't the best, and I agree that the combat system was not to everyones tastes but I personally loved the combat system, its hard, sure but since when has making a game more difficult a bad thing? I personally loved the challenge.

Breath of Fire III and IV - I'll concede on this but I feel BoFII is underappreciated by the BoF community cause much like FFVII, most RPG fans in the BoF series started with the PS1 generation, so most didn't touch the game until they were set in their ways...

While most did not start with II I did, I have been with BoF for an age and I am still adamant that III and IV are better then II, granted II is a little underrated, but tbh I still feel III and IV are much better games.

Command and Conquer - Heard of it and never bothered to play. Besides the game's plot is cheesy as hell, and it kept using those god awful live action cutscenes that were more laughable than cool.

There is an age old saying that goes a little like this: Don't judge a book by its cover, if you have not played the games how can you pass judgement on it? from word of mouth? if I had never played FFVI I would think (by the amount of champions it has on this forum) that it was the greatest game ever created, it is not, and you who have not even touched this game cannot judge a game by what others have said about it, it is said that for every 1 person who speaks up saying they hate a game, there are 20 others who loved it and did not speak up, I hold that this may not be true with every game out there but this is one of those I believe would be among those titles.

Lunar SSSC - Originally a Sega CD game, then a port on the Sega Saturn, you can't claim a port. Its still a good game, but its a port with a facelift.

Yes, it is a port, but every one who I have spoken to who have played both games have all agreed the SSSC version of the game is much better, its like comparing Lufia to Lufia 2 (I have played both games fyi).

Grandia - Originally a Sega Saturn Game, see above... Also, while Grandia has a great battle system, it has a terrible story and a really cheesy cast, not to mention the god awful VA work.

Each to their own I guess, I liked the VA, Justin was spot on imo and sure the story was cheesy but thats what makes it endearing to me, when Sue left it was a great scene and Puffy was just plain awesome.

3D Graphics. - That were mostly terribly. Even you have to admit, 3D didn't come into its own until the PS2 era, and Playstation wasn't even the first console to have 3D, once again, the Sega Saturn beat the Sony to the punch.

Sure Sega Saturn was the first for 3D but its much more refined on the PS1 plus the sales of the Sega Saturn are hardly worth mentioning, and when you say the 3D of the PS1 sucked, I have got to laugh, did you never play Abe's Odessey? the graphics were amazing and the battle sprites in FFVII were also amazing for their time, obviously there are much better graphics not but for their time the graphics on FFVII were simply amazing and saying otherwise I can only say that yes, the graphics have not aged well, but back then the graphics were supreme. FMV in VII for January 1st 1997 was simply staggering.

Which most of its sales are from us kids growing up in the awesome SNES era who finally entered the working force.

Well for a start I will address the "most of your sales are from us" part: Yes, I do concede that SOME of the sales did come from people who bought a SNES many moons ago but I forgot you people can't do math so let me explain it to you with little words: 102 - 49 = 53 so that means that if every single person who owned a SNES bought a Playstation that still means over half those sales were non SNES owning people (which still beats your measly 49.10 million sales) and besides even if every one of you SNES owners DID buy a Playstation, its obvious why: You guys recognise that the Playstation is THE superior console, a console who's sales can only be beaten by the Playstation 2 (which isn't really being beaten because the PS2 can still play PS1 games) so let me ask you this: where is the backwards compatibility for the SNES? oh right Nintendo are a bunch of money grabbing bastards and don't give a smurf if people's old games never get replayed again, unless its to make a port to their handheld consoles.

Nintendo - which has been around 11 years more then Sony - has stumped up sales of consoles on all 5 machines equals 251.77 million consoles sold world wide, PS1 and PS2 alone can beat that without the extra numbers the PS3 brings to the equation with world wide sales of 252.49 million with PS3 added to that it becomes 302.49 million consoles sold world wide, which lets face it, rapes the tit out of Nintendo's sales.

You're forgetting the Sega fans in this equations, who also make up part of the Sony demographic, and frankly, I feel many former Sega fanboys have turned to the mighty Sony to avenge their companies ruin. The other issue here is that it was because the Genesis/SNES era making games more acceptable to the public after the debacle of the Atari in the early 80s. Had the Playstation been released in the early 90s, it would have suffered the same fate as the Atari Jaguar and Sega CD, an expensive novelty item. I mean tit, the PS1's starting lineup was terrible, and they've even aged worse.

if they were trying to avenge Sega, I think they would have done a better job of buying the Sega Dreamcast, but lets put that aside for a moment and consider: even if they did buy the PS1 "to avenge the their companies ruin" it got sold, it has only ever been beaten in console sales by its successor the PS2, which is the best selling console of all time, bar none. Also arguing that if it was released earlier at the same time as the Jag or the Sega CD is like arguing that if VII was released on the SNES it would be a better game, its pointless, and despite having an incredibly weak starting line up it still managed to be the second highest selling console of all time. How do you explain that?

As for backwards compatibility, Yes, the N64 didn't have it, but faulting Nintendo now, for releasing old games through WiiWare or ports, which offer the ability to actually play them on the go, and was doing so several years later before Sony came up with their own version, is frankly silly, cause Nintendo moved to a new medium, its not like the Playstation can play cartridges.

I am not faulting them for making money, I am faulting them for never even considering backwards compatibility at the time, both N64 and SNES had cartridges, and yet somehow they didn't think to have BC, Sony was the first for this and despite being able to play PS1 games on the PS3 we still have a great many titles on the PSN for those of us who dont, its sort of the best of both worlds, Sony was the first successful company to use CD software, and it is still useable today, CD's were much cheaper then cartridges were, which also made the console better for those gamers on a budget, seriously how much was LoZ:OOT when it was first released? $79.99 is the answer your looking for, while the Playstation Greatest Hits games were retailed at a meer $19.95, the N64 equivalent was retailed at $29.95, THIS is the reason PS1 was so succesful, people didn't want to spend that much money on a game, which inevitably lead to the early demise of the N64.

Also, let's look at Sony's accomplishments, how about that robust online networking on the PS2? Oh, wait, it never happened outside of SOCOM, and after Squenix invested so much into launching it with FFXI. Let's talk about the fact, Sony doesn't even make PS3's with backwards compatibility, and while they are kind enough to sell you back your PS1 games to play on the systems hardware, you're still screwed for playing PS2 games, and even the PS3s that did have Backwards compatibility, have a pretty nasty habit of breaking down on that front. I own one of them, and I have to say my PS3 is only for PS3 games, cause it can't play the others worth tit. Even if you can get them running, the system can't play old memory cards (like the Wii can) so what's the point of backwards compatibility if its going to make you start from scratch. You're better off just buying a used PS1 or PS2 and spend the other $250 you would have saved by doing so, on the now super cheap games they have.

So let me get this straight, you say that Wii is the picture of perfection in that you can use old memory cards on the Wii... and when you play a game you play it from your memory card... what happens when you lose the memory card? what happens when it gets corrupted (like my GC card did), PS3 have the system to create as many virtual memory cards as you have memory for, (which in that case is obviously 60gb) and my cousin (who has a 60GB PS3) has never had a problem with his console, can run PS2 games just fine on it and he can share his game saves with other PS3 owners if he so chooses to do so.

Also I would like to point out, when you play a game say like... FFVII do you start a brand new game and try to do everything or do you load up a game save of say, the last 3 battles, kill Jenova and Sephiroth twice then go back to your PS3 games? No, you do not, saying that PS3 is bad because you can't use you PS1/PS2 memory cards is quite frankly a ridiculous argument.

Also how many games did the BC have with online capability? 4... but TBH I have a PC that can run as many online games as I like, I doubt there is a single person out there who bought either the PS2 or the GC to play online games, most of the online games on the GC can be played with a PC, and despite having only 1 game with online capability it is still the highest selling console of all time, argue as much as you want, the PS2 was a far far superior console in terms of games then the GC.

BC, was nice for one generation and then Sony screwed it up. Sure Nintendo ported old classics onto the GBs but that was a decade before Sony actually got around to getting the portable DL onto the PSP to work and even then, I feel the pickings are rather slim. I can play almost every classic on the DS, I still can't get BoF4 or Suikoden 2 on the PSN network. It took until this year for SE to get off their ass and finally release most of their library.

Are we arguing about consoles or games companies? lol, yes, SE did not inundate us with every single game in their considerably large repertoire, but then why is that such an issue, they wanted us to buy their new games and released them in stages, they are released now which is the main thing, the games themselves are still out there in the market and I can understand why Nintendo released their older games with alacrity because (imo) they wanted to stop people from using emulators, and I have no idea about the sales of these games, but I am sure they did make a large amount of money from them, FFVII-IX are all on PSN now, (dunno if there are more then this but it wouldn't surprise me if there were) but your forgetting 1 thing: these games (the actual CD's) can still be bought, or if your a fan you likely already have these games on disk.

After that I have further damning evidence: Nintendo had the contract for FFVII but somehow they managed to smurf it up and so Squaresoft went over to the PS1 and the resulting game was the most epic game of the entire series.

This was simply about the choice of hardware technology. Nintendo wanted to keep cartridge based games but Square wanted more room to work with and left Nintendo for Sony. Interesting fact, Sakeguchi wanted to port FFIV-VI to the GBA back when the handheld released , but Nintendo refused, and only agreed to do it after Sakaguchi left SE.

This is easily one of the bigger blunders in gaming, but also having a poor excuse for defense for your customers personal data that allows any hacker who can breach your defenses get the whole bounty, doesn't seem like a great idea in hindsight either.

Meh, everyone makes mistakes, its how they deal with it that marks them, oh and ftr, PSN wasn't hacked by "any old hacker" and I doubt there are many people who could achieve such a feat but this again is just my opinion.

Sales of Final Fantasy VII has reached over 10 million copies sold worldwide with Final Fantasy VI barely reaching 3.48 million (including the re-release sold on... you guessed it THE PS1!!!!). When FFVII was released on PSN it sold 100,000 copies within 2 weeks making it the fastest selling PSN game ever released.

Actually, counting the sales from the FF Chronicles/Anthology versions of the games, VI has reached past 4 million, the collections are not usually counted in this number, nor has the downloaded versions or VI Advance, so the number is actually higher. The other thing to note is that VII was the first FF released worldwide, VI never reached the PAL regions until FFIX was released, by then it was old and charming, as opposed to be new. Also when you think about how VII is popular in PAL regions and part of that is because their only experience with FF was FFI and Mystic Quest, I can see how these poor people truly believed VII was good, when they can only compare it to utter crap and ancient relics.

still 4million copies sold world wide pales in comparison to FFVII, it IS the most successful FF game out there for a reason, it is also the reason so many people like to bash it, because their are legions of FFVII fans out there many many more then FFVI (which often seems to be the favourite of the people bashing on FFVII) lets face it, it all comes down to opinion and I definitely think that VII is one of those games were 20 people like it and the 1 person who does not, shouting as loud as they can to say "hey my game is better" also I seriously don't think that the fanboi's of VII help its cause in any way, but being honest, when was the last time you saw a post by an honest to god fanboi of VII, such a rare breed nowadays (at least on this forum (which is the only forum I go to) so I don't know if there are fanboi's on other sites feel free to correct me if I am wrong).

Besides, VII is a shadow of its former self, SE is just going to milk you people with silly spin-offs and sequels, while dangling the carrot that is a remake in the distance, as if buying all this crap tells SE they need to make it, when all its really doing is telling them they can slap Cloud and Sephiroth onto a magical pony raising simulator and you people will lap it off the ground like it was gold.

Why do you think there ARE so many spin off's, like it or not the company exists to make money and saying otherwise is foolish, also when they "milk the cow" they generate money to help with other games, alot of the Final Fantasy games out there could be worse off without the funding FFVII brought about by "milking the cow". Also saying "all its doing is telling them they can slap Cloud and Sephiroth onto a magical pony raising sim and you people will lap it off the ground like it was gold" to be very pretentious, we (the fans) have not "lapped it off the ground like it was gold" for any title branded with the FFVII logo, as a matter of fact I have only played FFVII and CC:FFVII VII being a great game and CC:FFVII being a fairly decent game, not once have I seen anyone "lapping up the FFVII spinoffs like it was gold", can you tell me where you came across such a notion?

I'll take my lesser success over one that is being run into the ground by a company that is bankrupt of imagination and ideas.

Are you forgetting the same company made both games we are arguing over? also saying they are bankrupt of imagination and ideas is a silly argument, everyone who plays which ever FF is their first it seems to me that that game is destined to be their favourite, as evidenced by cat121212 one of our new members, she played FFXIII before any other game and it is her favourite, everyone likes what they like, if you don't like SE's newer games then thats your loss, I base how successful a game is by the amount of sales said games has, I have no wish for you to follow in my line of thinking, and respect the way you judge which game is your favourite but saying a company is bankrupt of ideas and imagination is (imo) a little silly.

Now, lets go into those games you mentioned:

Final Fantasy VI
FFIV
Secret of Mana
Super Metroid
These here are admittedly good games, but they no where near match the calibre of the games released on the PS1.

I disagree. While the PS1 certainly has its number of games that are on the same caliber, I don't feel their are many if any that are better.

I see little point in arguing which console has the better line up of games, you like what you like, I like what I like, arguing about it is never going to change yours or my mind.

Star Fox
Castlevania IV
Super Star Wars Trilogy
Mortal Kombat
Street Fighter II
Donkey Kong Country
These games I have put a strike through because lets face it, they are lame games, Street Fighter II I might add has had considerably better instalments on the Playstation.

No, you just have lousy taste, DKC is a classic and actually one of the most financially successful franchises for Nintendo, which irritates Miyamoto. MK1 and 2 are the only popular entries in the MK franchise, and Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo is still considered by the SF community as the definitive entry in the franchise and the best game. You'll still be seeing people playing them at tournaments as opposed to the SF:EX series, which most SF fans try to forget it exists and the Alpha series which died with SFA3. Hell the SNES actually got SFA1 and 2 and they are technically the better entries in terms of unlockables and cinematic elements. SFA3 just has a huge roster filled with Shoto clones and Cammy pallette swaps.

You say MK1 was a popular game? it has a rating of 6.9 on GameFAQS and MKII (which was not on the list of games mentioned, you just said MK nothing about MKII) was released no a titload of consoles, PS1 being one of the said consoles. oh and MK: Deception has an 8.2 rating on GameFAQS... which sort of blows the whole MK I and II are the only good games out there right out of the water (ftr the rating of MK II was 8.5) Street Fighter II was the game mentioned, IMO the game is lame, how many characters did it have> 10? or was it 8? I can't remember but one thing I DO remember is growing up with my brother and cousin, and a couple of friends of my cousins playing Street Fighter to death, I have played so many incarnations of Street Fighter I have lost count of the different renditions I have played, I have seen all the street fighter anime that has ever been released (with the lame exception of that kiddy Street Fighter Adventure anime, the one with Guile in it as the main character) and I can say without a shadow of a doubt that Street Fighter II compared to 90% of the rest of the series is like comparing FFI to FFVII its so so much more then what it was. Oh and the DKC, I went back to playing it again about 4 months ago, had you spoken to me before that I would totally agree with you, but they game simply has not aged well, I found it dull and repetitive, this though is just my opinion, but I am not going to look at a game with rose coloured glasses any more for the sake of nostalgia.

Star Fox is also a great game and the series would be better if Nintendo stopped trying to make them into space epics. It is actually one of the best dog fighting experience on the old consoles. The Super Star Wars series is a fun side scrolling adventure, and until recently, was considered one of the few Star Wars games to escape the Gundam curse, by actually being playable.

As I said before you choose which games you like, I don't like these games so I hold my reasoning is totally valid.

Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past (which every Zelda has been based on since)
Your basically admitting that if you have played one of these games, then you have played all of them, lets face it: it's pathetic never changing story same Zelda same Link each game is released with the same story over and over again each with a a little twist on the gameplay element of the game.

Yeah, just like Halo, RE, Silent Hill, and DQ and several other gaming franchises. When a franchise starts getting past the 10 year mark, you either stick to the formula or gamble on a revamp. The Zelda games do play differently, but its is also very formulaic. Its like going into a Silent Hill game and already knowing combat is going to be terribly to keep up the drama. They could fix it but then you get what happened to the RE series which has mostly split the fanbase.

Zelda always offers a new take on everything. Twilight Princess certainly found new and unique ways to use the metal boots accessory which was really remarkable. Overall, I feel your argument is just irrelevant cause most games don't dramatically alter the formula that made them successful, even SE tends to get reamed (VIII and XIII) when they alter the formula too much. This is just the usual argument Nintendo Haters make to talk smack about Nintendo franchises, without realizing their caught in a hypocrisy itself. LttP created the franchises formula, OoT introduced 3D elements (which actually created a different gaming experience as opposed to FFVII which still plays like a 16-bit game) and Z-Targeting, Wind Waker introduced a re-emphasis on exploration and gave Link the ability to disarm and pick up enemy weapons for unique combat, and Twilight Princess created more ways to utilize several of the old time fave items and unique dungeons like the Abominable Snowman mansion. Each game is unique from each other.

What was that game that everyone said was the Playstations version of LoZ... think it was Darksiders, still plays like a Zelda game but has a new and fresh plot, something which was lacking in all the Zelda games I have played (admitedly I only played up to Wind Waker as I don't own a Wii (not that I wouldn't like to) and copies of Twilight Princess for the GC and few and far between). I just thought it funny that you should say that every game has the same plot, when it would be piss easy for them to write a new plot with the same Zelda elements, hell, if Darksiders was released back in the GC days with the name Zelda on it with a few minor changes (naming the DS her Link etc.) everyone would have gone crazy for the game.

Oh and ftr, I am not a Nintendo hater, I find the idea that some people hate consoles that are in competition with their console to be entirely ridiculous and if you are a Sony hater (which btw its obvious that you are not) they I would have nothing to say to you. My main gripe with the Zelda games is that they always have the same characters, you spurn FFVII and its respective spin off's then go and commend Zelda for doing the exact same thing, I don't mean that the Zelda Titles are spin off's I mean they have the same story line throughout every game, hence my "it would have been great if Darksiders was a Zelda game etc" because it would have broken the mould, no Eponia no Ganon, I mean cmon, how many god damned times must I kill Ganon before he is actually dead, is he a god damned cat or something with 9 lives?

I feel Mega Man has more issues with being formulaic than Zelda does, tit how could I forget MMX!? Another great series on the SNES and one that actually began to shake up the MM formula, with a darker story, wall climbing, and collecting armor and health items.

It may shock you to your core to read what I am about to write: I have NEVER played a single rendition of Mega Man xD so on this I say to you: no comment.

Lost Vikings
I have never even heard of this game, which goes to show how "popular" it is.

It was a cool 2D side scroller where you played 3 dwarves, each with a unique ability that allowed you to get past certain puzzles, its biggest notoriety was being one of the first titles for a future big company. If, you've played WoW you've probably met them.

Guilty as charged, though I have not been back to it since Cataclysm was released.

Lufia II
An average game imo, I played and enjoyed it, but it doesn't stick in my mind as being an epic game.

To each their own I guess

/nod
[quote]

Breath of Fire II
While Breath of Fire II was an awesome game, Breath of Fire III and IV are much better games, which is evidenced by Wolf Kanno's Breath of Fire Appreciation thread.

II is underappreciated if you ask me. I feel its the first really good BoF, and like many SNES titles that found future installments on the PSX, I felt it layed the groundwork for those games, the Fairy Colony, Master System, and mulitple endings, can all can be traced back to BoF2 and its unique systems. Besides, BoF2 has an epic final conflict which begins with the Big Bad murdering your whole party except your hero, and its the only entry in the series that has three endings
I think I already answered this in the previous part of this titan reply so I wont bother replying to it again.

Chrono Trigger
The SNES landmark RPG title, indeed an awesome game but 1 game alone cannot stand up to the might of the Playstation.

I beg to differ, especially since the PSX could only muster up a semi-good sequel that is only a good game on its own merits. Besides, CT has had the remake spiel even longer than VII has.

That my friend, has nothing to do with the console and everything to do with the company.

now I have finished replying to this message, if you reply to everything I have said here then kudos to Mr. Weapon I can promise you I will definitely read it, but I will not be replying no matter how convincing your argument is, I dont think I want to spend another 3 hours typing out a reply.

Just to lighten this post I will share with you some of my favourite smilieys: :twak: Have a nice day!

[Rebellious Eagle]

Someone has no life n.n

[Carl the Llama]

Someone has no life n.n

I just got home from work, and I have a day off tomorrow and I have worked 24 hours in the last 48 hours, this is my make up post for missing out on so much EoFF! xD

[NorthernChaosGod]

Because you were too busy with your whore. Tsk, tsk.

Well, someone wasn't putting out.

[demondude]

Because you were too busy with your whore. Tsk, tsk.

Well, someone wasn't putting out.

[Rebellious Eagle]

Wait...how did our leader die? D: