Lord of the Rings

[Skyblade]

That's right, everybody, the Blu-Ray version is out, so we all get to run to stores and spend more money on the best fantasy movies of all time.

Having recently watched the Extended Editions again, however, I wanted to bring up one of my few disappointments with the movies, specifically, with Return of the King, and the battle of Pelennor Fields.

If there was a section of these movies I feel wasn't done justice, it was this battle. While I understand the need of truly utilizing the army of the dead (in the books, they were used merely to rout the Corsairs of Umbrar, and even that we never actually get to see, and it was implied that it was mainly the fear they inspired which let Aragorn claim the black ships), I feel that their use in the great battle is rather anticlimactic. The huge army, stronger than any force fielded in Middle Earth before, is wiped out, basically, by magic.

This is a stark contrast to the books, which instead heavily utilized allies of Gondor which do not even get mentions in the movies, even in the extended editions. By eliminating the fleets of the Corsair ships, Aragorn was able to take the military pressure off of the coastal cities of Gondor and Aragorn's people, the Rangers of the North. These were the forces brought by Aragorn in the black ships to Gondor during the battle of Pelennor. The other set of allies who do not appear are the forces of Dol Amroth, the Knights of the Silver Swan. A princedom of Gondor, Dol Amroth's knights were heavily used in the assaults out of Gondor, pushing the enemy back before they could lay siege to the higher levels of the city, as they did in the movies. And finally, due to the timing of the arrival of the army of the dead, Eomer's charge is cut entirely. In the books, when he found his sister collapsed, believing her to be dead, he leads an utterly insane berserker charge of the Rohirrim into the forces of Mordor, and is only saved from utter distruction by the arrival of Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli.

I just think that the movie's version is a lot less fulfilling. The tactics and coordination of the forces is cut completely, and the battle is won more through magic than sacrifice and courage.

[Loony BoB]

The books will always be immensely better than the movies. I don't think there was any way they could have realistically done the books true movement of events without extending the movies to about six three-hour features.

[Del Murder]

That's true BoB, but they did devote a lot of time to the stupid undead army when they really didn't need to.

[Loony BoB]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I totally agree with the sentiment of the thread. I've read the books about ten times, I've seen the last movie maybe three times. And when you take consideration to the amount of time spent reading vs. watching, it's pretty clear which I would rather spend my time on. To be fair, the movies were good stories, but mostly because they were LotR, not because of the amazing scripting or how they went about things. It's actually pretty hard to create a bad LotR movie if you're showing it to a bunch of people who haven't read the books. To please the fans of the books, though, is something else. I don't care so much about the undead as I care that they completely ignored the scouring of the shire.

[Miriel]

I'm right there with you. I felt that Return of the King was absolutely the weakest link in the trilogy. My biggest points of contention was the opening sequence which Peter Jackson admitted didn't belong in that movie, but he liked it so much he stuck it in anyway. The Pelennor Fields battle. And the depiction of Denethor.

The scenes with the battle didn't just fail on an adaptation level, it was just bad filmmaking. There was no weight or power behind the battles. As a viewer, I was completely underwhelmed and totally lacking in investment. And it's always a bad sign when people start giggling during the middle of it because the green soapy army of the dead was just so laughable. Awful execution, awful CGI right there. The worst failure was probably how they handled the character of Denethor. At first I blamed the actor for the horribly cheesy over-the-top portrayal of a mad king. But I've been watching Fringe and the actor, John Noble is phenomenal! He can play vulnerable with such poignancy and subtlety and when he needs to be powerful and intimidating, he can do it with force and gravity. So now I place all the blame on the direction and the screenwriting. The film Denethor was in your face CURRRAAAAZZY without any meaning or depth behind it. Having him catch on fire and run run run all the way to the cliff is another example of the cheesiness that Peter Jackson can't resist at times. He was robbed of all the things that made Denethor an interesting character. The intelligence, the pride, his loss of hope, and his despair. If given the chances, I think John Noble could have put out a much more subtle and powerful performance because he does it all the time on Fringe.

It's always been interesting to me that when Peter Jackson nails it, he gets it so right. Like, there are tons of examples in the movies that are perfection and can't be improved upon if you tried. But then when he gets it wrong, he gets it SO wrong.

[Psychotic]

One of my favourite scenes in RotK is when the beacons are lit, and Aragorn comes sprinting in, yelling "Gondor calls for aid!" ... "And Rohan will answer!" and you see them all preparing to head off for war as Eomer rouses them up, while it clearly weighs heavy on Theoden's mind as he knows what lies ahead. And good god, the ride of the Rohirrim itself, that never fails to stir my heart and set it pounding. How utterly fantastic it was.

...then the deus ex machina ghosts show up, and the sacrifice of the Rohirrim, their charge headlong into the world's ending was worth precisely nothing and made no difference whatsoever.

[Dreddz]

You can fix this problem by simply not reading. That's what I do

[Cuchulainn]

That's true BoB, but they did devote a lot of time to the stupid undead army when they really didn't need to.

I think the amount of time they decided to devote to Arwen in the movie was far more annoying.She was barely more than a sentence but the movie decided that editing out the greatest elf in Middle Earth (Glorfindel) to include her was best. I was also less than impressed with the lack of Imrahil & the Swan Knights not to mention poor Fatty Bulger getting nothing. I understand Bombadil's exclusion however much I loved him.

Sacrifices need to be made from page to screen, i get that & was able to get over most of the changes to enjoy the movies for what they were...

OMG WHO'S THAT ON THE HILL TO SAVE THE DAY!! ERKENBRAND!!! Wait what? What are YOU doing there? WHERE THE smurf IS ERKENBRAND JACKSON YOU ! etc etc

EDIT: I agree with Mirial about Denethor. The Character was sooo much more complex than just the mad Steward he was portrayed. He was arguably the most intelligent man in the books. He seen right through Gandald's intentions & motives and knew everything before it happened. His will was so strong he was the ONLY man not to be corrupted to evil by the palantir, but instead made paranoid, suspicious & dreadful. In the movie he's was just a mad bastard...

[charliepanayi]

To be honest I think despite the flaws (the closing stretch of ROTK for instance), the extended cuts of the LOTR trilogy are as good an adaptation as could have been hoped for really.

[Miriel]

To be honest I think despite the flaws (the closing stretch of ROTK for instance), the extended cut of the LOTR trilogy are as good an adaptation as could have been hoped for really.

I loved the scenes at the end and I thought they were beautifully done. Especially in the extended cut, but my god. The editing was awful. What the hell was up the parade of fade to whites? It was bizarre. I remember watching it in the theater for the first time and people were laughing by the 3rd fade out. I felt such 2nd hand embarrassment for Peter Jackson at the time and it totally took me out of the moment. Each scene at the end was lovely but there had to have been a better way to stitch them all together to form a more coherent epilogue type ending.

I know that each film had a different set of editors, but I think the editors for Return of the King were clearly the worst.

Despite all the criticisms I had of the films, I love them as though they were my own babies. LOVE. I only criticize because I know they could have done better because they HAVE done better. If you can nail it right 50 different times, then you can nail it right 100 times. No excuses for shoddy work when it's paired next to excellent work!

[Del Murder]

I wouldn't want you to be my baseball manager...

'If you were able to hit a home run in your last at bat then you should be able to hit one in EVERY at bat!'

[Miriel]

I wouldn't want you to be my baseball manager...

'If you were able to hit a home run in your last at bat then you should be able to hit one in EVERY at bat!'

I'm pretty sure we've had a conversation about this. HOME RUN EVERY TIME OR GTFO!

[Cuchulainn]

Baseball references. The sure fire way of alienating everyone who is not american from the conversation.

[Laddy]

Baseball references. The sure fire way of alienating everyone who is not american from the conversation.

I agree. Baseball sucks.

Eh, I know a lot of of scenes are cut out (the destruction of the ring was changed and the scour of the Shire was completely left out) but I <3 them anyways.

[fire_of_avalon]

Leaving out the final chapters regarding the corruption of the Shire and their roles as saviors redeeming the land and the people really, really bothers me. I felt that one of the most important metaphors of the series is the fact that exposure to evil is never as isolated as it seems to be. Evil has a way of reaching past the people fighting our wars, our personal guards to the places we live.

And that we all have to work to keep that evil from touching us ever again, because it is so pervasive.

Anyway, perhaps I'm wrong. But it bothered me that was left out. And all the Arwen stuff bothers me. Even in the legendarium Arwen bothers me. It was meant to be Eowyn.