Can't do an open world? I'm not buying it

[VeloZer0]

You both have pretty much destroyed any credibility on taste in gaming for me.

It's nice to know when hard pressed you resort to name calling like everyone else.

[Wolf Kanno]

1) Yes, a lot of people on this site claimed DQV was the best in the series, and I've heard from various places about the innovations it brought to storytelling, and 2) I liked Chrono Trigger, I liked FFVI, hell, there were a lot of things I loved about Xenogears. If anything, I felt a giddy feeling of getting to start a magical gem that's widely acclaimed.

You'll have to forgive me for never noticing since I've never heard you really say anything positive about VI and CT, you usually only speak about how overrated they are, and how so and so game is so much better. So forgive me for never reading between the lines at the tough love you were giving them.

Unfortunately, those games don't start off as awesome as the games people claim they're better than, nor do they surpass them once things get going. Was there somewhat of a chip? Yeah, but that's only because of how caustic and delusional their fan bases are.

The shear irony of you giving this statement amuses me to no end.

And look, I'm not gonna convince you to like Valkyria Chronicles. But I'm telling you for a fact I spent a good chunk into it completely underwhelmed like you, until it just clicked. At least the gameplay's good in the beginning and only gets crazier later on, whereas Xenogears' gameplay sucks in the beginning, and is just as titty once they start delving more into the plot.

See, there you go again. You know, I honestly want to love this game, and I'm probably harsh on it cause I'm still waiting for a real next-gen JRPG to come out, that I can enjoy. Is it still a wonderful title that came out this gen, hell yeah, but for me, it's greatness is one that is mostly won by a serious lack of competition this generation.

It definitely wasn't the first, off the top of my head I can think of FFIV showing you going into (SPOILER)outer space in first person. The problem was the screen became smaller and it was so repetitive, it's almost hard to understand what it is you're actually looking at. Because it was the same static graphic repeated billions of times, there's no perspective of distance, either. It's the complete opposite of the bike chase scene, which, putting an entirely different game inside of an RPG and incorporating it into the story (instead of a mini-game that manipulates the existing engine), was pretty impressive for its time.

I don't count that as the same thing though, the railroad chase itself is meant for you not to see what's ahead, the tension of moving blindly away from an unseen pursuer. I feel its context combined with the technology is a much better use of utilizing the technology to tell a story, as opposed to the Lunar Whale which was simply you transporting from location A to B. While I feel the Lunar Whale is powerful, I feel that VI utilized it in a more unique way, by basically re-creating something most gamers would have only seen from Indiana Jones. I feel it has that same tension, In IV, chances are, you're too busy trying to grasp why you now have to go to the moon in one of the silliest space ships ever conceived to be brought into the wonder of going to the moon. The other issue here is that VI's visual change is unexpected and leaves the player powerless to he events of the game. In IV, you basically know you have to go to the moon, and once you start traveling you know when it will end. It's the difference between skateboarding down a straight sidewalk and being on a skateboard when a friend pushes you down a hill. Same mode of transport (technology) but the experience they create is totally different for the participant.

I'm also not bad mouthing the impact of the motorcycle chase, just stating that I feel it has not aged well. Its kind of a lame mini-game and it controls like ass compared to the superior snowboarding and submarine games. Though I do feel the motorcycle chase away from Shin-Ra is similar in tone to the minecart escape from the Magitek Factory.

Beat it last night and it's just not all that, dude. Unless you're someone who has completely given up on the prospect of JRPGs having worthwhile gameplay, I can't see why it's rated as high as it is. Us tearing apart eachother's favorite stories is one thing, but when a game has so many demonstrable flaws in its design and implementation, it's hard to see why it's gotten such a reputation. Even then, it's story isn't substantially deeper than, say, Final Fantasy X.

As I said, I don't agree to many of your flaws. While I can agree many games have done aspects of the game better, I don't agree it makes it a bad game cause I still have fun playing it and in the end, I feel that's what really matters. Is it easy? yes but I honestly felt most games around that time were easy. I died maybe twice in VII and both times were simply because I didn't know a boss could do certain things, but it didn't stop me from one-rounding everything from Disc 2 and beyond, its not FFVI, Brave Fencer Musashi, or god forbid FFVIII that came afterwards also set some challenge bar Xenogears didn't live up to. Puzzles? I'm a snob when it comes to puzzles so really only a few series ever do anything challenging (Square isn't one of them) and its not like puzzles are pretty much a moot point in a replay. Platforming? Honestly, I feel good platforming has to be frustrating and difficult if the objective of the platforming is to get from point A to point B (Mario, most of the NES). If its like modern platforming titles, where moving around is actually easy, then its about rhythm and flow and how smoothly getting from one place to another is (Sly Cooper, Assassin's Creed, Mirror's Edge) so for me, I feel Xenogears is simply like old school games in that respect, is it unpolished? Hell yeah but Square doesn't make platformers and real gamers don't bitch about fairness, they just get better with MAD SKILLZ I also enjoy the break in monotony in dungeon exploration it brings. Dungeon design not living up to FFVI and VII? Well yeah, I'll agree, but you have to remember that when the game came out they were the only games like that... maybe Wild ARMS and Lufia 2 but that's four games in a sea of titles that just had long uninspiring dungeon crawls. Once again, I don't feel VIII really did any better.

Does it feel unfinished? Well yeah, because it is, but I probably got more fun and enjoyable experiences out of this half finished product that it's kind of hard to look at other games that had more time and resources and yet come across less satisfying. Now here's the thing, this whole thing here is not me trying to convince you that you're wrong, I'm just saying I don't feel your evaluation is objectively correct. It's pretty much like my feelings of FFX, but it hasn't stopped large fanbases to love both games, so obviously the game design did something right, we're just not on the same wavelength with the fans. I love Xenogears for its story, but I also found it to be a fun game as well. You didn't, that's your problem, but you're free to have your own opinion.

Also, I now question if you actually really payed attention to Xenogears cause its a hell of a lot more thought provoking and deeper than smurfing FF " oh its a Spiral of death, hey get it? Spiral, Spira, I'm so smurfing clever, and you're the figment of a dead person's imagination" X.

I don't always agree with Bolivar

But when I do, I usually talk about Xenogears


And if you seriously think liking Xenogears is paramount to having a good taste on games, well then you just lost all gaming credibility in my eyes :>.

Thankfully my sole reason for existing isn't to impress you

It's nice to know when hard pressed you resort to name calling like everyone else.

I wouldn't really call that name calling, just telling them where they stand in the "WK Circle of Existence". Technically I still recognize them as living which is more than I can say about you my FFXII/Persona 3 hater.

If I was going to name call, I'd call Bolivar, Susan and Mirage, Professor Eugne Skybuttom.

[VeloZer0]

To be fair I don't hate Persona, I just find the series not to my tastes. I still consider them good games. FF12 goes straight into the mediocre pile though.

(And playing through Xenogears again I have to agree with the gameplay. The first time through I was just to distracted by the wonderful art style, story & music)

[Wolf Kanno]

Fair enough, looking back, we've seem to really diverge far from the actual topic :sweatdrop:

[VeloZer0]

For a thread that died once then came back I think that is alright.

[Bolivar]

I don't always agree with Bolivar

But when I do, I usually talk about Xenogears

^ Easily the world's most interesting post.

You'll have to forgive me for never noticing since I've never heard you really say anything positive about VI and CT, you usually only speak about how overrated they are, and how so and so game is so much better. So forgive me for never reading between the lines at the tough love you were giving them.

I've NEVER said anything bad about Chrono Trigger on this site. I want to make this my public challenge to Wolf Kanno to provide a single link on this site where I bad mouth Chrono Trigger or assert it's overrated!!!

Concerning VI, we were debating dungeons & puzzles not too long ago and I actually commended VI for having some awesome dungeons!!! I love playing that game!

See, there you go again. You know, I honestly want to love this game, and I'm probably harsh on it cause I'm still waiting for a real next-gen JRPG to come out, that I can enjoy. Is it still a wonderful title that came out this gen, hell yeah, but for me, it's greatness is one that is mostly won by a serious lack of competition this generation.

I'm not trying to go anywhere! I'm just telling you straight up, I felt the same way you did, hell, from your latest comments I would say I felt even worse than you did about the game when I played it. And I had a blast playing VCII this weekend, thank you for asking!

While I can agree many games have done aspects of the game better, I don't agree it makes it a bad game cause I still have fun playing it and in the end, I feel that's what really matters.

LADIES AND GENTLEMEN! Update your bookmarks! From this day forth, if you ever had fun playing a game, Wulf cannot assert it to not be a good game!!! Valkyria Chronicles? Good game! FFXIII? Good game! FINAL FANTASY X!?!?!?!?!? GREATEST GAME EVARRR!!!

J/p man, look, we all had different experiences and that's what makes everything good, because we can have actual conversations and debates on them. Such as a) um, there's an entire series of games that had novel, but delightful dungeon design before Xenogears, it's called Dragon Quest and b) what truthfully makes Xenogears more thought provoking than FFX? Because it throws out a bunch of terms coined by Sigmund Freud without any substantive connection to what those ideas were actually about? Or because of its constant exploitation of religious scenery and dialogue? "God! This is because of God! There was a war between God and humans! Maybe it's due to God? YOU ARE GOING TO KILL GOD!!!" The point at which its cheapness is so evident is where Stone tells you that all the priests solely desire to control, exploit, and kill their oblivious religious followers; the priests who don't? Yeah, they rape little kids. And let's not forget where Citan lets Fei and Elly eat the canned food in Solaris only to reveal the reality of the genetic experiements. "Remember that food I let you eat a little while ago? Yeah, that was humans we performed horrific genetic experiments on and then killed. I know this is completely out of character and unbelievable for me to do, but hey, nice going, cannibal!"

So whereas Xenogears relies on constantly trying to shock you, FFX actually provides a serious look at grief and mortality, not just with the spiral, but with the inevitable result of Yuna's pilgrimage, and with Zidane's existence. And they were able to do this...

without an open world!

[Wolf Kanno]

I've NEVER said anything bad about Chrono Trigger on this site. I want to make this my public challenge to Wolf Kanno to provide a single link on this site where I bad mouth Chrono Trigger or assert it's overrated!!!

You don't love it, in my jaded fanboy eyes, that means you hate it. HERETICS WILL BE PURGED FROM THE FORUM...

Concerning VI, we were debating dungeons & puzzles not too long ago and I actually commended VI for having some awesome dungeons!!! I love playing that game!

Considering how much you troll the VI forums I find this hard to believe. It would be like me saying FFX was a good game.

While I can agree many games have done aspects of the game better, I don't agree it makes it a bad game cause I still have fun playing it and in the end, I feel that's what really matters.

LADIES AND GENTLEMEN! Update your bookmarks! From this day forth, if you ever had fun playing a game, Wulf cannot assert it to not be a good game!!! Valkyria Chronicles? Good game! FFXIII? Good game! FINAL FANTASY X!?!?!?!?!? GREATEST GAME EVARRR!!!

I wouldn't go that far. FFX is a mediocre title at best and XIII is awful, I seriously feel if you had fun playing that game then you must have abysmal standards for what constitutes as "fun", cause damn... That game suck so bad, you'd get a better deal if the game case just contained Wada's feces. It would be more fun to play with too.

I've always told people my opinion doesn't matter over your their own, so I have no idea why you've been debating me all this time as though my opinion actually contained any merit that has any more meaning than my meandering experience. If you think a game is fiun that's fun, but know that not everyone agrees and I do enjoy pointing out faults.

J/p man, look, we all had different experiences and that's what makes everything good, because we can have actual conversations and debates on them. Such as a) um, there's an entire series of games that had novel, but delightful dungeon design before Xenogears, it's called Dragon Quest

I can't agree with this, cause outside of maybe two dungeons in DQIII (Pyramid and Zoma's castle) and one in DQIV with Torneko, I honestly never cared for DQs dungeon design, its just a meandering maze to me, with very little to differentiate one over the other throughout the whole series. Their only merit is that they hold onto the old school mechanic of dungeon crawling being about resource management which is the only thing that makes them fun, but honestly I could probably only name three dungeons in the whole series that I liked. I can name more awesome dungeons in the SNES Breath of Fire games than most of the DQ series I've played.

b) what truthfully makes Xenogears more thought provoking than FFX? Because it throws out a bunch of terms coined by Sigmund Freud without any substantive connection to what those ideas were actually about?

(SPOILER)Wrong, Id is pretty self evident but looking at the nature of Fei's mind being split into three, its obvious that the Coward is the ego (true self) and Fei is the Superego, and all three of them relate to each other within the context of Freudian theory. With Id being a being of pure destructive selfish nature, Fei eventually growing as the moral guardian of law that contains Id and snaps the ego back into place. I'd say that's more than just throwing the names out there. One of the major themes of the game is Fei struggling to not only understand himself but learn to control and balance himself, if that isn't Freudian, I don't know what is, and I'm a former Psychology Major.

Or because of its constant exploitation of religious scenery and dialogue? "God! This is because of God! There was a war between God and humans! Maybe it's due to God? YOU ARE GOING TO KILL GOD!!!"

(SPOILER)Except you don't kill God, the misconception among some fans is that Fei is an anti-Christ figure and this is a typical "Japan hates Christianity plot" but Fei is actually Jesus within a Gnostic view of the world, the Wave Existence itself is the Gnostic version of the true god and Deus is simply the Demiurge that separates man from the True God. The story is actually about Gnostic belief systems and is a sci-fi telling of the religions cosmology with Deus being the physical god of the world that made man, the Wave Existence being God that gives man his souls, and Fei being a man who is connected to the divine and hunted by the Physical God, his one companion being the female aspect of God known as Sophia (we can guess who that is ). It gets complicated after this point but just read some books on Gnosticism and this will all make sense.

Fei, Elly, and Miang are all trapped in an eternal cycle of reincarnation until they fulfill a certain role (namely free the Wave Existence for Fei and Elly, and complete Deus for Miang and surprisingly Elly as well...) and its symbolically battled in the final confrontation with Uoroborus which symbolizes the eternal cycle of reincarnation that both Fei and Miang find themselves trapped in. Hell, even the way Grahf exists is understandable once you understand Buddhist laws of reincarnation work.

Hell the story is also filled with symbolism for divine goddess figures like Mother, Elly, Miang, Billy's Mom, Fei's mother. The whole of humanity is brought forth by a divine mother figure created by Deus. I would also commend the game for the fact that it is one of the few times where God isn't portrayed as evil in JRPGs. Deus is simply a machine initiating its survival program, the Wave Existence is an innocent bystander who finds himself trapped in a lower dimension and accidentally creates the physical universe and life by just being there. Neither is really evil, nor does the game spend its time talking about an evil god that needs to be destroyed and overthrown for being a bully. It's a radical departure from the way God is viewed from what BoF, FF, DQ, MegaTen, and countless other JRPG series. DQVII is the only other JRPG I know where God isn't treated as some irredeemable trickster demon, and he is useless in that game, obviously in Japan, real gods have vaginas.

The cross necklace is a familiar and overused symbol but it works on many levels, as both a religious symbol, Abel's need for a mother, Kim and Lacan's sense of powerlessness, and Fei's own guilty conscious. By game's end its less of a cross for the sake of a cross as much as its a physical symbol that connects Fei and Elly and all of Fei's past incarnations mistakes. There is a damn good reason it always shows up just before Fei loses it, and why Id uses it to unbalance Fei's psyche.

The point at which its cheapness is so evident is where Stone tells you that all the priests solely desire to control, exploit, and kill their oblivious religious followers; the priests who don't? Yeah, they rape little kids.

(SPOILER)You lost me on the rape part... Know one gets raped by the Ethos. Billy was going to sell his body to support Primera but he never states he's selling it to Priest's. Also you'renot completely correct about Stone, he wishes to rule by overthrowing Solaris. So Control and Exploit is certainly up there but that's not the nature of Ethos itself, which is a organization created to spread dis-information to the people, refurbish and ultimately rip-off Aveh and Kislev with Gear repairs and to keep them at each other's throats, and find people to send to Solaris as either slaves or test subjects who are transformed into Wels and tested, killed, and their bodies returned to Solaris as part of the ongoing experiments to mass transform humanity into the parts needed to rebuild Deus. Stone is only one part of what Ethos is and what its role in the plot is about. Was it the toekn "take that to Catholicism" that the Japanese love, yes but you have to also remember that when Xenogears came out, there were only two other games outside of Japan that dealt with the "Church is evil trope" and that's BoFII and FFTactics and even if you combined other JRPGs of the time , within Japan, I can only add maybe five more games to that list that existed before 1998.

And let's not forget where Citan lets Fei and Elly eat the canned food in Solaris only to reveal the reality of the genetic experiments. "Remember that food I let you eat a little while ago? Yeah, that was humans we performed horrific genetic experiments on and then killed. I know this is completely out of character and unbelievable for me to do, but hey, nice going, cannibal!"

(SPOILER)Considering all the tit Citan pulls in that game, no, I cannot agree with you that this situation was out of character for him. While I felt the Soylent Green section is an amusing shout out to a classic cheesy Sci-Fi flick, I also just thought it was pretty damn ballsy to actually bring it up. Its relation to Solaris is probably closer to being a reference to the film Logan's Run (super advanced society that exists by feeding on the older population unbeknownst to them) but still, I think it was just more of them driving the point home on how completely unethical and inhuman the Floating City had become over the centuries. Hell you can't tell me you didn't think that Solaris wasn't a bit of a poke at American Culture when you got the chance to roam through the actual upper city part and landed in what felt like any major US. city minus the Jetson future design.

So whereas Xenogears relies on constantly trying to shock you, FFX actually provides a serious look at grief and mortality, not just with the spiral, but with the inevitable result of Yuna's pilgrimage, and with Zidane's existence. And they were able to do this...without an open world!

I don't agree that it was a serious look. Wakka laments on Tidus looking like Chappu and this brings in Lulu but it never goes anywhere, it gets bogged down by other plot elements and ends up being some silly trivia point by the end of the game. Yuna's story and the Pilgrimage in general is just a seriously drawn out version of the Tale of Orochi which smurfing DQIII utilizes as apart of its own plot and that can be resolved in an hour. My issue is that its been done better, by other shows and games.

I felt FFIX did a much better job with the idea of mortality and the meaning of life. It at least doesn't undermine its own themes or bog it down.

Kilik is destroyed to show why Sin is bad (and act as a not so subtle symbol of Japan and its relation to all the natural disasters that befall their nation) and then its just dropped for the rest of the game. The Al Bhed's Home is crushed for the silly Maester sub-plot (Dear FFX, if you're going to bother doing the evil church plotline, at least try... there is nothing about it that the player didn't figure out five minutes after meeting the Maesters in Luca. You might as well had placed a sign over their heads that said, "we're manipulative evil bastards". The foreboding melody that is Seymour's theme wasn't a dead giveaway... ) and Operation Mi'hen was so predictable that the aftermath was barely emotional because the game built up the whole scenario so often and so much that you just knew it was going to end terribly. Killing off one of the more annoying side characters was just an added bonus, especially if you made sure it was the new recruit.

While the mythology of death itself is intriguing, I feel that the Unsent kind of ruin all the drama of death and mortality for me, cause being an immortal super zombie doesn't sound like a raw deal to me, and I kind of feel Seymour actually had a plan that just as good as the parties. I mean death is almost trivialized in FFX by its cosmology. You either go to a happy afterlife, become a fiend until your killed and properly sent, or remain an immortal you. Where's the bad side here? At least FFVII and FFIX had the reincarnation cycle being screwed with which made death more of a serious threat in their worlds. Can you imagine how different our own world would be if we actually had physical knowledge of what happens when you die and you know most of the options are not so bad? The theme of death and the Spiral of Death is kind of ruined by all this. The people of Spira react to death like we would but their cosmology is in contradiction to this mentality, we react to death like this because its one of the great unknowns, when the mystery is gone and the options are actually better than what you would get in some real world religions, I kind of feel you would look at death very differently.

Also, I felt the twist with Tidus is utterly stupid. My big secret is that I'm a dream created by a bunch of dead people, and somehow transcended thought to become a sentient physical, killable being. Makes you wonder why they just didn't imagine another being like Sin to destroy Yevon and his Sin. Let alone why they let this nonsense go on for a thousand years. If you bring in some cosmological bulltit that thoughts can become reality, then all bets are off in your fantasy story and now you have to explain why a thousand other scenarios didn't pan out. Considering the whole point of this plot twist was just so they can have the switcheroo tragedy ending, it just felt like a far-fetched nonsense plot twist used to create a simple dramatic piece that I guess was going to happen about halfway through the game, when I felt they were pushing Yuna's "noble sacrifice" a little too hard. It is still one of the dumbest plot twists in the FF series if you ask me, and any chance of me ever liking FFX's story died right there.

So no, I don't think FFX is as deep cause its own mythology undermines most of its themes, and its big tear-jerker ending is undermined by a stupid and mostly unexplained cosmological principle that only exists to make the ending happen in the first place.

[Del Murder]

I like how WK used spoilers to make his post look less long but it ended up being 10 pages long even with the spoilers.

[Wolf Kanno]

My first forum was a Xenogears/Xenosaga forum, I can talk for hours about this game. This was the abridged version of what I wanted to say as well.

[Bolivar]

1) Reaching on Xenogears.

2) Trivializing Final Fantasy X.

P.S. Stone explicitly tells the party once he reveals everything to Billy what I described above.

[Wolf Kanno]

1) Reaching on Xenogears.

Considering I've played the game more than you have, and own Perfect Works that describes most of what I just said up there, yeah, I kind of feel you're the one trivializing here.

2) Trivializing Final Fantasy X.

Then prove to me why my point is wrong. Explain to me how I am mistaken for seeing the cosmology wrecking the emotional impact of the game because the idea of death is knowable and you have a 2/3rd odds of winding up in a sweet deal like Symour and the Maesters , or how the fact every single person you talk to between the Blitzball tournament and Operation Mi'hen event talks nothing about how "successful this strategy will be" is not the same vein as the cop movie cliche about "two weeks until retirement" nonsense. Where's the brilliance in the whole idea that Tidus is some bizarre psudeo being blinked into existence by thought and how this doesn't create a problem with the notion that if thought can become reality, why the Sleeping Fayeth don't just imagine a powerful Sin like monster on their own to defeat Yevon and finally let them past on so they can end the cycle?

P.S. Stone explicitly tells the party once he reveals everything to Billy what I described above.

Actually Verlaine mentions everything you said, not Bishop Stone. Bishop Stone kills Verlaine after he reveals the whole "evil Catholic Church cliche", what Bishop Stone explains is what I said, that Ethos was a front created to be Solaris' physical presence on the planet. That it grew corrupted and needed to be cleansed (You even got me mistaking Verlaine's role for Stone's) and then he goes onto explain what the Wels and Reapers are in future encounters, so he can stick an emotional knife into Billy when he reveals he's killing innocent people.

Overall, I don't think the scenario was bad, amusingly enough, the game predates the heavy scandals the church faced in the 21st century, and technically its role is no different from what Catholicism did in it's time. Yet its exploitation of the people was simply a front to continue on Solaris' experiments, attain resources, and perpetuate conflict on the globe, all for the sake of maintaining Solaris' control, not the Ethos itself, once the Ethos planned rebellion, that was when they were done in. The fact the game creates a historical background for the Ethos creation (to prevent another Lamb rebellion like the war between Solaris and Shevat) was also a nice touch than just having them their to be a typical "Take that' to western religion. The fact they could do both was just a bonus.

[Jiro]

I agree with WK's point about the Unsent. Those guys just pissed me off. When Seymour came back I was all "aw naw man that tit ain't cool" and then proceeded to kill him like 100 more times. Just smurfing die!

EDIT: Also I haven't played Xeno...gears, yeah, that's the one you guys are talking about. I haven't played that so I just skipped most of WK's post. Sorry dude

Lastly, wtf does this have to do with the topic? It's certainly interesting though so please continue.

[Bolivar]

Well, my post was supposed to be an ironic juxtaposition of a concise response to an extended retort, but here goes:

Look, I'm not going to say Xenogears doesn't have a great story. I've said multiple times that it's an incredible, intelligent, and well translated plot that is an absolute showcase of video games as a storytelling medium. My real gripe is with everything else that largely detracts it from being a great "game." I guess in my fervor I over-extended myself and tried to go for the kill by saying the story isn't above its' peers either. The direction is really great; at the end of disc 1 I had to step away from the TV because of how emotionally drained I was. But upon completion I don't think it's terribly above and beyond the rest.

First of all, I read a perfect works translation myself over the weekend and I didn't see an explanation of its inspirational parallels at all. Perhaps you could link me to a better one that includes it? I understand your background in psychology, and I'm not going to pretend I know more about this. But when all this Id stuff started coming up I took a quick refresher on Wikipedia (I know, I know!) and a lot of it just doesn't seem to carry over. Like the Coward... aren't all three aspects supposed to be interacting with each other all the time? Instead the Coward only comes out for one scene and completely disappears, as does Id, whereas the human struggle is supposed to be a constant balancing of all three, not a one time thing you resolve then move on. I'm not going to try to pretend I know more about this than you do, but I'm not sure if it all adds up quite as well as you're saying.

As far as the religious aspect, I must confess I don't know much about gnosticism, although it sounds very interesting and I have identified the parallels you pointed out to be true. Obviously I understand that the game's canon does have a real God who wants to stop evil in the world, and that's not the trendy-church-bashing that lesser caliber stories fall for. But that doesn't excuse the fact that for the first forty hours the game tries its absolute hardest to shock the player with its gratuitous use of religious symbols and terminology. For example, the scene where (SPOILER)Elly goes to save the rest of the team, and the gears (and ChuChu) are all crucified, what does that add to the plot? What analogies does that make to real world philosophy and how does it contribute to the game's story? To me, this and other scenes are just cheap ploys at pulling at the emotional reactions people have to religion. And I think we've settled that Verlaine stated the whole "control or molest" dichotomy of priests in the Ethos.

And just to clarify, do you really think (SPOILER)Citan letting Fei and Elly eat the Wel-food was in his character? I understand the common use of (SPOILER)a society that feeds its failed human experiments back to its people, but if you really think (SPOILER)Citan letting Fei and Elly eat them before revealing the truth wasn't inconsistent, then I don't even know how to respond to you.

An erudite implementation of world philosophy is great, but it all comes down to how it's directed, what the scenes look like, and the messages that are conveyed to the player. FFX's cosmology of knowing what happens in the afterlife is not what you're making it out to be. The characters do not know what happens after you die. They do know that unless you are sent, you are filled with hatred and jealousy of the living. That's not the "so who cares about dying?" scenario some people make it out to be. People can see images of the ones they've lost in Guadosalam, but they don't know if that's their actual loved ones or just projections from their own memories. Where is the explanation of the happy afterlife? They never explain if the sent go to another plane of physical existence, return to the life force of the universe, or simply dissipate. It's not what you're making it out to be.

I also find your disappointment with Operation Mi'ihen perplexing. What's wrong with foreshadowing? I think the whole point of the scene is that you know that these people are going to fail, yet you have to witness their pathetic false hope, all along knowing most of them are going to die. You know something truly horrible is going to happen yet you have to witness the painful build up. I'm pretty sure that's the standard formula for a horror movie.

As for Tidus' existence... To each his own. But I thought it was a great way make the story more powerful as you progress, you really don't know what this guy actually is, and what's going to happen when it's all said and done. As you watch him interact with his friends, fall in love with Yuna, it's all given a dramatic sense of sadness because you don't know if this guy is going to be with them when it's all said and done. And at the end when you find out (SPOILER)he's not real... well, that scene was far more powerful to me than Xenogears' ending, I can tell you that. After everything is said and done, we get a happy ending, (SPOILER)Fei lives, Elly tries to sacrifice herself, but that's ok, because she lives, too, all your friends are okay and waiting for you and the world is going to be alright. And Krelian? That guy who spent the entire game manipulating, enslaving, and mass murdering people and has been performing horrible experiments on countless human beings for thousands of years and killing them and feeding them back to other people? He's actually not so bad, turns out he loves people more than anyone else! In fact, he gets forgiven by God who he gets to go with and live on a higher plane of existence!

In FFX, not everything is ok at the end, in fact, they just get to live in a normal cycle of life and death like we take for granted every day. To me that's a far more adult way to conclude things than the standard, triumphant RPG ending.

[Wolf Kanno]

Well, my post was supposed to be an ironic juxtaposition of a concise response to an extended retort, but here goes:

I was mostly just giving you a ration of tit but whatever.

Look, I'm not going to say Xenogears doesn't have a great story. I've said multiple times that it's an incredible, intelligent, and well translated plot that is an absolute showcase of video games as a storytelling medium. My real gripe is with everything else that largely detracts it from being a great "game." I guess in my fervor I over-extended myself and tried to go for the kill by saying the story isn't above its' peers either. The direction is really great; at the end of disc 1 I had to step away from the TV because of how emotionally drained I was. But upon completion I don't think it's terribly above and beyond the rest.

I can understand not being impressed with the title as a "game", but I honestly don't agree that many games, let alone FF has ever really been as well written on so many levels, even with the games half finished plot and loose ends, I don't feel FF has ever come close to really hitting on so many themes and tying together such a complex and mature mythology and narrative. Does this mean I feel Xenogears is the end all be all of writing? No, I feel there are many games that are either as good or better written. But I'll be damned if you're going to compare Xenogears to FFX. VII? You have more of an argument, but not with FFX.

First of all, I read a perfect works translation myself over the weekend and I didn't see an explanation of its inspirational parallels at all. Perhaps you could link me to a better one that includes it? I understand your background in psychology, and I'm not going to pretend I know more about this. But when all this Id stuff started coming up I took a quick refresher on Wikipedia (I know, I know!) and a lot of it just doesn't seem to carry over. Like the Coward... aren't all three aspects supposed to be interacting with each other all the time? Instead the Coward only comes out for one scene and completely disappears, as does Id, whereas the human struggle is supposed to be a constant balancing of all three, not a one time thing you resolve then move on. I'm not going to try to pretend I know more about this than you do, but I'm not sure if it all adds up quite as well as you're saying.

I'm not going to yell at you for using Wikipedia.

(SPOILER)Fei is not exactly a normal healthy Psyche, that why the three don't interact with each other. There is also the issue that technically "Fei" that the player knows, is an artificial persona. By the end of the game though, they've become to function like the Freudian concept, like when Fei subdues Id by telling the Coward to not be a prick to Id and accept what happened, and by also revealing to Id that their mother saved their life at the last moment, meaning his rage against her is misguided. The Superego act as the "civilized" part of the human mind that subdues the Id, and keeps the ego in equilibrium. Granted, the Freudian idea of the psyche is pretty much bollocks in the modern psychology field (I'm Jungian myself, but that school is pretty heretical in the psychology profession) but the paralells are their and the Id's personality for the most part is much like the Freudian concept. To be honest, its been awhile since I read up on this in connection with Xenogears so its possible I could be wrong myself. I did find it amusing that Kaiser Sigmund is named after Freud but bares a resemblance to him.

As for sources and guides... Sadly the Ethos Sanctuary doesn't exist anymore but these two sites are pretty exceptional.
Xenogears: Guardian Angels - Proudly serving since 1999!
Xenogears: God and Mind >> Welcome to Xenogears: God and Mind - they actually just updated a translation of Perfect Works that actually have all the artwork and timelines.

As far as the religious aspect, I must confess I don't know much about gnosticism, although it sounds very interesting and I have identified the parallels you pointed out to be true. Obviously I understand that the game's canon does have a real God who wants to stop evil in the world, and that's not the trendy-church-bashing that lesser caliber stories fall for. But that doesn't excuse the fact that for the first forty hours the game tries its absolute hardest to shock the player with its gratuitous use of religious symbols and terminology. For example, the scene where (SPOILER)Elly goes to save the rest of the team, and the gears (and ChuChu) are all crucified, what does that add to the plot? What analogies does that make to real world philosophy and how does it contribute to the game's story? To me, this and other scenes are just cheap ploys at pulling at the emotional reactions people have to religion. And I think we've settled that Verlaine stated the whole "control or molest" dichotomy of priests in the Ethos.

When you really start to delve into the symbolism, a lot of it actually serves more of a purpose than shock and awe, despite that, I don't necessarily disagree that the game tries to do a shock and awe approach and I agree the crucifixion scene is definitely one of those. Where I don't agree is that its all there for just exploitation of the strong emotional pull that religious symbolism pulls (technically most of it would be lost on a Japanese audience) breaking down the symbolism of the Deus System itself, the name of each part actually refers to something relevant, of anything the game just found an amusing way to find religious terminology that can double for many of the things in the game. The Deus System and its mechanical and biological components mostly have religious terminology that is relevant to what it physically is in the game.

I also feel its evident that there is a major contrast between the Ethos Church and the Nisan sect, especially in terms of the Nisan sect being run by a Holy Mother and the Ethos preaching a male god figure. It's really not different from Christianity and the pagan religions of the Roman times. The teachings of Nisan itself is actually taken from the Italian artist Luciano de Crescenzo when Sophia speaks about one winged angel, and how we are created to be imperfect in order to help each other. (SPOILER)The three sages of Shevat are named after the supposed names of the three wise-men who gave gifts to Jesus, in the game each gives a specific thing to Fei, Balthazar(Old man Bal) created Weltall, Gasper removed the physical limiter on the party, and Melchior created Weltall-2 as well as gave Fei the nano-machines for suppressing and controlling Id. The Anima Relics are named after the 12 tribes of Israel, which correspond to the 12 disciples of Cain who helped populate the earth in the beginning timeline, and are also the people who became the Gazel ministry, and were physically reincarnated as Fei's party (hence why most of them can use Omni-Gears). Once you really start to look at the naming schemes of almost everything, it starts to make sense.

There is a lot of depth here, but it sadly does require some homework on the player's part.

And just to clarify, do you really think (SPOILER)Citan letting Fei and Elly eat the Wel-food was in his character? I understand the common use of (SPOILER)a society that feeds its failed human experiments back to its people, but if you really think (SPOILER)Citan letting Fei and Elly eat them before revealing the truth wasn't inconsistent, then I don't even know how to respond to you.

Well yes, because Citan has always been a guiding figure in the story and what better way than to make the student experience it firsthand? Technically Elly has been eating this stuff beforehand, as did Citan, but Citan needed to show Fei what he was up against. Of course, the Soylent System was suppose to have a larger role in the 2nd Disc but we know how that went...

An erudite implementation of world philosophy is great, but it all comes down to how it's directed, what the scenes look like, and the messages that are conveyed to the player. FFX's cosmology of knowing what happens in the afterlife is not what you're making it out to be. The characters do not know what happens after you die. They do know that unless you are sent, you are filled with hatred and jealousy of the living. That's not the "so who cares about dying?" scenario some people make it out to be. People can see images of the ones they've lost in Guadosalam, but they don't know if that's their actual loved ones or just projections from their own memories. Where is the explanation of the happy afterlife? They never explain if the sent go to another plane of physical existence, return to the life force of the universe, or simply dissipate. It's not what you're making it out to be.

X-2 says they return to the planet cause it works like VII/IX's world, and when you go there in the game, Yuna can speak with the Fayeth there and technically Tidus, its obvious that the souls are there, hellX-2's main boss uses them as a power source...

Also, FFX itself shows that only people who die can be seen there, hence why Tidus sees his mother but not Jecht. So its not just an illusion created by the viewer. As for the fiends, they are simply reincarnated as a monster, that itself can be killed, then purged, and return to the rest of souls. Most of this is pretty par the course of Buddhist thinking. I honestly figured the whole thing was a reincarnation gambit as usual, it just took the Ultimania and X-2 to finally confirm it. The pyreflies, Farplane, Unsent, and fiends are all pretty consistent with Japanese myth. pyreflies are Hitodama, unsent are ghosts and spirits, fiends are vengeful souls that become demons, the Farplane is Yomi. Yomi itself is nether considered a paradise or a hell, but then I would describe the Lifestream and Crystals as that as well.

I also find your disappointment with Operation Mi'ihen perplexing. What's wrong with foreshadowing? I think the whole point of the scene is that you know that these people are going to fail, yet you have to witness their pathetic false hope, all along knowing most of them are going to die. You know something truly horrible is going to happen yet you have to witness the painful build up. I'm pretty sure that's the standard formula for a horror movie.

I actually don't care for horror movies, but my issue is that the game played it up too hard and too soon. If Operation Mi'ihen had been done closer towards the end of the game, like before you go to Zanarkand, I feel it would have had a stronger impact for me. Partly because I would have spent more time in Spira and I would have had a stronger attachment to what happens to it, it would have had a better buildup instead of just walking out of Luca and having every person you talk to bring it up. until the event happens almost an hour later in playtime. My issue is that its buildup didn't create tension, it just created this giant "let's watch this blow up in their face" moment and that's pretty much how I see the scene. Its an amusing spectacle that shows that some people in Spira are trying alternative methods to beat Sin but also establishes that the Final Aeon is the only thing that can beat it. I feel its relevant in those points, but not as an emotional scene. I felt exploring Lindblum after Atmos destroyed it in IX was far more shocking, emotional, and poignant.

As for Tidus' existence... To each his own. But I thought it was a great way make the story more powerful as you progress, you really don't know what this guy actually is, and what's going to happen when it's all said and done. As you watch him interact with his friends, fall in love with Yuna, it's all given a dramatic sense of sadness because you don't know if this guy is going to be with them when it's all said and done. And at the end when you find out (SPOILER)he's not real... well, that scene was far more powerful to me than Xenogears' ending, I can tell you that.

I just feel the twist is stupid and could have been handled better. If the goal was to have him sacrifice himself instead of Yuna, there were more graceful options than to come up with some silly BS that''s he's a dream and not real. I mean the whole twist pretty much just serves this part alone and it seems kind of Deus ex Machina to me cause it has no real good foreshadowing and I feel the whole concept creates some weird plotholes that didn't exist. I really felt like Nojima was just trying to recreate the whole "Cloud isn't Cloud" twist from VII but fumbles when he tries to explain it and basically pulls it out of his ass. You know, I probably would have liked X's story more if this one twist wasn't there, cause I felt it really just kind of undermined any buildup up until then.

After everything is said and done, we get a happy ending, (SPOILER)Fei lives, Elly tries to sacrifice herself, but that's ok, because she lives, too, all your friends are okay and waiting for you and the world is going to be alright. And Krelian? That guy who spent the entire game manipulating, enslaving, and mass murdering people and has been performing horrible experiments on countless human beings for thousands of years and killing them and feeding them back to other people? He's actually not so bad, turns out he loves people more than anyone else! In fact, he gets forgiven by God who he gets to go with and live on a higher plane of existence!

In FFX, not everything is ok at the end, in fact, they just get to live in a normal cycle of life and death like we take for granted every day. To me that's a far more adult way to conclude things than the standard, triumphant RPG ending.

(SPOILER)You forget that most of the human population is dead, after being integrated into Deus or wiped out by the Seraph, there is a story reason why you can only go to two towns at the end of the game. Most of humanity is holed up in the remains of Shevat. Everyone else is dead. So I wouldn't say it was all lollipops and gum drops in the ending. No one in the party dies, but considering all the hell they had to go through to get to this point, I kind of feel Fei and Co. deserve their happy ending. It's not like every previous incarnation Fei had didn't end absolutely miserably, nor all the events in his own life have been a bucket full of rays of sunshine. So you're going to spite him for finally catching a break?

As for Krelian, I actually like that he gets off with his crimes, the player never gets the catharsis of defeating the games true mastermind, but I also felt the ending worked for his character who has just been someone who couldn't cope with the loss of his love, and eventually became a man who simply seeked to be with someone or something that can accept him for who he is. His own goal was simply to force humanity into a higher plane of existence where they would be free from misery. Despite his inherent madness, his goal is noble if not grossly misguided. I find that the ending was not so much the "happily ever after" but really just a final analysis of Krelian and his character.

[Bolivar]

Well, it looks like we kind of hashed out all our feelings on this, so I'll summarize what I still agree/disagree with:

I still think you're partially reaching on Fei saying "well, he's not a normal Psyche!" but I do concede the Freudian concepts aren't completely substanceless. I also think that's cool about the Kaiser, he was actually one of my favorite characters, his intro scene of him playing Mitsuda's "Prayer" track on the organ while discussing strategy is one of the illest video game scenes of all time. I really wish he got more screen time, I would have loved to see him and Bart at the negotiation table hammering out the terms of an armistice, or even better, making amends with his son.

I also agree that few games, certainly in FF, came close to making such complex plots with humongous casts, threads, and themes all come together at the end. The way they tied up the whole Lacan/Graf/Fei thread could've really went downhill but they pulled it off.

I also guess we agree: the symbology parallels are deep, but a lot of it is shock-tactics.

I still don't think Citan would let them eat it!

Also (SPOILER)was Ramsus supposed to join the game as a late addition to the party? It kinda seemed like they were going to pull a Magus with him when Citan gives him the old-friend pep talk, which in itself makes me wonder if given more time they were going to have branching plot lines and alternate endings.

It kind of seems like you're conceding that they don't know 100% what happens in the after life, but they have their teachings on it. A lot of games have that, namely VII and IX off the top of my head. In any case, I don't think it ruined the plot.

I also disagree about Operation Mi'ihen, there's plenty of great scenes in that game so I didn't need that to be one of the few mindblowing ones sparsed throughout the plot. To each his own on this one.

What plotholes does Tidus' nature create? Also I do think there was foreshadowing because he was from a place he couldn't possibly have been from.

I guess Fei did deserve a break. It's not like they didn't lose comrades and loved ones along the way (SPOILER)(HAMMER!!!! ). But with everything going on with Elly late in the game, the truth that gets revealed about everyone, including the fact that (SPOILER)all humans on that planet (except Abel) were artificially created. It was a little bit of a let down for everything to end so predictably. So yeah, I still feel FFX had a much more adult ending than Xenogears.

As for Krelian's wrap-up, I can see why people like it, but I think it asks too much from the player, and gets away with it only because of how crazy the rest of the ride was up to that point