Can't do an open world? I'm not buying it

[Wolf Kanno]

I love how you always have to say its an awesome game after every criticism you make of it, like you're trying to convince yourself its not as awful as you subconsciously know it to be.

I also agree with Flying Arrow, while progressing the story is often linear, the world itself grows and expands as you progress and your options get greater. It creates a greater sense of a world, than just traveling from one connected location to another, and the tube like quality of these stages only help to make them feel artificial. Some dungeons in previous games were also simply straight paths, but the games tended to scramble it all into a twisted mess, so its hard to tell how linear areas are when they resembled mazes. Mt Nibel itself is like five maps top, but it involved hitting switches and solving a puzzle to get to the boss and the exit. IV had several hidden paths and some large branching areas in their dungeons which made their visually simple designs far more complex. They may seem simple but really when you think about it, even some of the more simple dungeons in early FF games tend to be less straightforward than what XIII presented us.

I think one of the bigger issues with some of the later FFs is how sparse they are about vehicles. While both X and XII had a form of an airship, they are revealed at the last stretch of the game when the final dungeon opens and you're in sidequest hell. Even FFVIII and IX were really sparse about giving the player the ability to travel around the world with the same sense of freedom as an airship can. I feel vehicles also make a world seem larger and bigger, and by the PS2 generations, they have been marginalized to a great degree.

[VeloZer0]

I think one of the bigger issues with some of the later FFs is how sparse they are about vehicles. While both X and XII had a form of an airship, they are revealed at the last stretch of the game when the final dungeon opens and you're in sidequest hell. Even FFVIII and IX were really sparse about giving the player the ability to travel around the world with the same sense of freedom as an airship can. I feel vehicles also make a world seem larger and bigger, and by the PS2 generations, they have been marginalized to a great degree.

Not to mention are a great tool for giving limited amounts of freedom. Each new vehicle allows you to access new areas, but still allows areas to be restricted. Hell even in the old titles once you got your airship it wasn't the be all and end all of world access, there were multiple airships/upgrades for you to get as you went along.

[Flying Arrow]

Some dungeons in previous games were also simply straight paths, but the games tended to scramble it all into a twisted mess, so its hard to tell how linear areas are when they resembled mazes. Mt Nibel itself is like five maps top, but it involved hitting switches and solving a puzzle to get to the boss and the exit. IV had several hidden paths and some large branching areas in their dungeons which made their visually simple designs far more complex. They may seem simple but really when you think about it, even some of the more simple dungeons in early FF games tend to be less straightforward than what XIII presented us.

The problem for me is that FFIV's design suited JRPG games in 1991 and VII's did its own thing in 1997. I won't go so far as to speak for others, so I'll just say that I simply cannot get over the idea the rigid, featureless linearity of FFXIII passes for good game design in 2011. I've read the reviews that talk about how XIII is a much-needed paring down of extraneous FF conventions, and I do agree that it's good to see mini-games finally given the boot and a get story that doesn't veer off into shenanigans to add play time. That's fine and great and probably the only thing XIII can legitimately say it does better than the older games. It's just that... couldn't SE have done something with XIII's bare bones to make it interesting?

[VeloZer0]

I hate to harp on this like a broken record, but using a third person camera perspective it just makes everything seem so much more linear. You are by definition running in a straight line with slight deviations to alter your course left to right. Factor in the fact that there are much less map transitions nowadays and you are spending most of your time running around holding forward on the analog stick.

Even if you took a game like FF7 and ran through it with a third person perspective it would seem a ton more linear than the experience with a static camera. IMO even the areas of FF13 where the camera pans out had a much better feeling to them.

[Flying Arrow]

^ Yes. The camera is the biggest difference maker in the PS2/3 games. And at the risk of sounding like a whining old fart (I'm not that old!) I remember hearing that FFX was going to be an over the shoulder perspective and thinking how odd it would be considering FF games don't really incorporate a lot of environmental puzzles or whatever that necessitate this kind of perspective. I can see why Square wanted to move away from the quaint (although amazing) pre-rendered environments, but I still think they suited those games perfectly and the jump was only made for the graphics factor. X and XIII, for me, feel like not a lot is going on because there's not a lot of gameplay added in to accommodate the new perspective and control scheme. XII, for example, was a great over the shoulder FF game because with the fluidity of the battle system it couldn't have played out from any other perspective. If there are no real puzzles and there's still a battle system that requires screen shifting, the over the shoulder adventure parts start to feel like real filler.

[Wolf Kanno]

I can agree as well, I think the happiest hybrid of the two would be to pull of Xenogears/BoF3-IV dungeon layouts where the camera is fixed but its possible to rotate it anywhere from 90 to 360 degrees depending on what's needed. All three of these games also incorporated the rotating camera into puzzles and exploration better as well which is something I can't say for FFXII I'm afraid.

Personally, I feel the dungeon layout should fit what is needed, I feel the camera style of XII and XIII would work wonders if used sparingly with pre-rendered layouts and more as a means to keep the player mentally stirred. I honestly feel the full 3D camera works very well for walking around towns, I can't tell you how much I actually like just strolling through towns in FFXII and taking in the sights.

[Flying Arrow]

I agree about the just looking aroundishness of FFXII. I spent a lot of time out on the lookouts of Bhujerba just watching the sky. FFXII probably has one of my favourite game skies. Shame about the camera in XIII, though. Sometimes I just wanted to look out at the Sunleth Waterscape but adjusting the camera in that game is about as easy as trying to twist my cat off my couch while he has claws dug in.

[VeloZer0]

I actually found the design of FF12 had me spending an inordinate amount of time not looking at the scenery. Why? Because I was spending the whole time running around with the camera planted on my backside I was constantly getting disoriented and looking at the minimap. For like 50% of the game I was running around starring at a wire-frame drawing. What a waste of of developer money on such a gorgeous little country. (I refuse to call FF12 a world).

I can agree as well, I think the happiest hybrid of the two would be to pull of Xenogears/BoF3-IV dungeon layouts where the camera is fixed but its possible to rotate it anywhere from 90 to 360 degrees depending on what's needed.

The camera was one of the weaker aspects of Xenogears IMO. I never found the ability to control it added anything to the game, only the hassle of moving it from places you didn't want it to be and causing disorientation when entering areas with the camera on a different facing. I don't see what having it movable added that having smartly crafted camera angles for every area wouldn't.

*Also note that when I say 'fixed camera' I don't mean it has to stay in one place. I mean that it's movement is predetermined and not in the players control.

[ShinGundam]

I think FFXIII-2 and Versus present good solutions such as implementing physics engine(Cloud formation/weather) , global dynamic lighting(Day/night cycle in VS13) and a degree of destructible objects in VS13.

[Flying Arrow]

What are those solutions to, besides a game with no dynamic weather or destructible environments?

[Wolf Kanno]

I actually found the design of FF12 had me spending an inordinate amount of time not looking at the scenery. Why? Because I was spending the whole time running around with the camera planted on my backside I was constantly getting disoriented and looking at the minimap. For like 50% of the game I was running around starring at a wire-frame drawing. What a waste of of developer money on such a gorgeous little country. (I refuse to call FF12 a world).

I played director and would shift the camera around to fit the locale. Yet in some locations and towns I actually took the time to really just look around the locations, seriously, the towns in XII are some of the most well crafted towns in the series in terms of visual content. I mean just watching airships go by in Bhujerba and then quickly panning the camera on the people and scenery was nice. I also shifted the camera often in battle when I needed to move my characters to specific strategic points and to keep my bearings as I watched to make sure the boss didn't spot me. I only used the minimap to check for traps and to help when I got lost or worse, turned around.

I can agree as well, I think the happiest hybrid of the two would be to pull of Xenogears/BoF3-IV dungeon layouts where the camera is fixed but its possible to rotate it anywhere from 90 to 360 degrees depending on what's needed.

The camera was one of the weaker aspects of Xenogears IMO. I never found the ability to control it added anything to the game, only the hassle of moving it from places you didn't want it to be and causing disorientation when entering areas with the camera on a different facing. I don't see what having it movable added that having smartly crafted camera angles for every area wouldn't.

*Also note that when I say 'fixed camera' I don't mean it has to stay in one place. I mean that it's movement is predetermined and not in the players control.

The movable camera was great for spotting hidden items that simply moved off camera but would have been unnoticeable otherwise, the camera helped with setting up some of the platforming elements (better than KH1's godawful camera...), and it was utilized in some of the more amusing mini-games like the hide and seek game in Aveh. Hell it was because of than mini-game that I actually started to play with the map as I explored towns and dungeons to notice items I wouldn't have otherwise. I found it a fun element of exploration, and as I said when I praise XII, exploration is something that has been whittled down to nothing in modern JRPGs. I feel its something that needs to be refocused on and I find the camera is often an underutilized tool for exploring towns and dungeons.

As for moving cameras, I'm going to disagree, its one thing to have a moving camera when you're controlling it, but when the game does it, I find it visually jarring cause I'm trying to focus on my characters and the moving camera keeps distracting me cause my peripheral vision keeps picking it up. I find as soon as the camera moves, I suddenly halt to a stop to see what the camera is doing and I find it disrupts the flow of the game for me. So no camera for the game designer during the playtime portion. I never liked when the game would combine the movement with the cutscene cause the cutscene was always more distracting. You have no idea how many times I fail the fight mini-game at the battle between Gardens in VIII cause my focus keeps shifting to the fighting in the background instead of the playable part. I think in terms of panning cameras, Suikoden III might be the only exception I can think of.

[Bolivar]

I disfavor free cameras as well. FFVII introduced the camera as a storytelling tool, and designers could use its placement to accentuate a scene and make the story that much more powerful. Giving a free camera further highlights the differences between custscenes and gameplay, and makes them that much more stark.

That said, I think it worked well for a game like FFXII which was based around freedom (story and gameplay!) and exploration. You got to explore the world when you wanted and so it let you look at things when you felt like it. During battles, I would rotate the camera until I was able to fit all the combatants in the frame, and then let it sit there and watch the battle play out. Actually did a good job resembling the more cinematic fights of FFVII-IX.

[Mirage]

I actually kinda like semi-free cameras. The camera position isn't locked, but you can't move it anywhere you want to, just zoom in/out a bit, move it a 20-80 degrees in each direction, or stuff like that, depending on the scene.

[Wolf Kanno]

I disfavor free cameras as well. FFVII introduced the camera as a storytelling tool, and designers could use its placement to accentuate a scene and make the story that much more powerful. Giving a free camera further highlights the differences between custscenes and gameplay, and makes them that much more stark.

I don't really agree with this because I feel the transition with set cameras is just as noticeable because you'll be walking around in the dungeon and then suddenly the controller stops responding, so you suddenly realize that you're transitioning and you watch as it pans out. The fact action has to stop for the sake of dialogue is pretty much a major transition change that will jolt a player out of the game.There is also the issue that often times I don't agree with the director's "vision" of the scene. Sometimes I prefer seeing the characters over the scenery and sometimes I feel it should be the other way around. There is also this problem...

Considering most JRPGs will still load in the dialogue scene, I feel this argument is moot and that it's still very plausible to let a gamer have more free reign over the camera during dungeon and and town exploration in order to utilize more gameplay options. Story is great but I will go back to my usual position that it should never trump gameplay. Yet as I stated, I feel the fixed but still movable camera of Xenogears/BoFIII-IV is a nice compromise because it would give the director more options in order to make the dungeon dynamic looking by limiting what positions the player can see, and programming story segments into that so even if the player switches from the default right corner/ back of character view to a left corner front of character view, the dialogue sequence will just start and the director can still maintain control of how cool it looks by making sure the dialogue sequence is visually stimulating based on the limited viewing options, even if BoF, there are times when the game won't allow you to move the camera at all and I feel its fine when it fits the moment but I don't always feel the director's storytelling vision is right for the game part. I really feel this is the best compromise.

[Flying Arrow]

I think a rotatable camera probably could solve some problems, but only if done really, really well. I don't think Xenogears' method of making the player rotate the camera to see hidden things is particularly a good way of doing things. Treasure should, I think, be hidden in more meaningful ways than just tucking into the game world's titty geometry. Obviously a modern game would probably have much smoother areas, but I still think the style is a regression of what can be pulled off today with some creativity and talent.

Still, we're talking about Playstation 3 games. Xenogears' ugly, rotatable environments "worked" (actually, I think they were pretty awful) because they were really all that could be had aside from 2D sprite art or pre-rendered backdrops. In this day and age, the over the shoulder action-adventure camera is fine, as long as the developers bother with decent level design or make the world interesting to explore from this perspective. If they don't even bother with this most basic necessity of game design then they just shouldn't bother at all.

I kind of fell off of JRPGs around the beginning of the PS2 era, once I felt they lost the appeal that they previously had (telling a story in clever video game language rather than dramatize it horrendously using film conventions). For those curious as to where my JRPG ideals fall, I think DQVIII is the pinnacle of the modern console JRPG (as far as exploration and adventuring goes, but in other ways too). It's basically, remember when you were a kid playing on the NES and imagining what the worlds of DQ, FF or Zelda looked like from the perspective of your dinky little sprites? That's exactly what DQVIII is.